The Battle for Bajaur - PA seizes control

[blain2]

"25th Punjab Regt. is an elite Infantry unit of the PA. so they are using their best soldiers."

A couple of thoughts- Judging by the photo, the position is immaculate- clean; neatly stacked sandbags along the ramparts; a simple tea table adorned with a porcelain teacup and a small container. His command section seems to involve a single RTO manning a PRC-77 radio. The colonel is in helmet, ballistic vest and has his personal weapon with him.

The pink satelliate phone and carrier sitting on his lap are a mind-blower. I'm sure that's his wife on the other end and not some artillery battery. As to the cannoneers-

"Gunner commanders still direct fire from rear bases while playing cricket – and admit it with a laugh to their commanding officers..."

25th Punjab Inf. Regt. may be a fine outfit but Col. Baluch better go grab his artillery commander and get his *** back up with the guns.

My sense of artillery professionalism won't allow me to believe that comment. I doubt that these men would direct their cannons from a cricket field were they engaged against the Indians in the Punjab or along the Kargil/LOC. I further doubt that this battle is taken any less seriously by your military commanders.

Mr. Burke, methinks, plays to a British audience with a wee tad of hyperbole. Boost the ol' newspaper circulation, don't you know?

S-2,

As I mentioned above, the pink phone is something gathered up from the houses and made to work on the spot. This is not a standard issue to the field formations. The place had been taken over 2 hours prior to the pictures being taken.

For gunner commanders a little game of cricket is very much conceivable and goes on as it helps relieve stress. It even goes on across both sides of the LoC. Also contrary to what you may be thinking, the cricket pitch is right behind the Gun positions (its not really a pitch, any small bit of flat surface would do). Unless you have played cricket in the "gulleys" of Pakistan, you have no idea what fun can be had with cricket in a limited space..

I have been around artillery in Pakistan for a long time and contrary to the perception you may get from the article, our gunners know their jobs well and don't take it lightly. I would go on to say that they are as good as gunners anywhere else in the world.

Also note that 25 Punjab is an infantry regt. The gripe against the Artillery blokes would have to go through their own CO who upon hearing about the little game of cricket would probably laugh it off.

 

[blain2]

25th Punjab Regt. is an elite Infantry unit of the PA. so they are using their best soldiers.

Fat sir,

In my opinion, 25 Punjab is a regiment with very rich traditions and battle honours, however it does not indicate that its an elite infantry unit. On efficiency scale, I am sure Baloch, FF, Sind and NLI would be able to put up a regiment as good as the 25th Punjabis.

Its just depends on which divisions are inducted into the theater. If 25 punjabis are part of the Div, they go along as any other regiment would.

 

[blain2]

Listen to this:

Jason Burke reports from the war on the Pakistan Afghan border | World news | guardian.co.uk

Interview of the 26 Brigade Commander and another officer about what is going on. Pay attention to what Brig Abid has to say about the opposition around 4:48.

 

[S-2]

"I have been around artillery in Pakistan for a long time and contrary to the perception you may get from the article, our gunners know their jobs well and don't take it lightly. I would go on to say that they are as good as gunners anywhere else in the world."

No slam whatsoever intended to the professionalism of your cannoneers. I'm sure that they're superb. I speak as a former field artillery officer who's put plenty of 155mm and 105mm rounds downrange with my name on them. Kudos for Mr. Burke if his description of cricket and cannoneers is true, even should the rear of the battery position not be quite the same as "...direct[ing] fire from rear bases".

"Also note that 25 Punjab is an infantry regt. The gripe against the Artillery blokes would have to go through their own CO who upon hearing about the little game of cricket would probably laugh it off."

I did note he was infantry. As I mentioned, the compound was impeccable. Damn near spotless. Amazing that the sandbags were filled and placed so neatly in such a short time. Col Baluch is fine using the sat phone for...whatever. I'm assuming that the bill's been paid and there are unused minutes. I'd use it too.

I certainly didn't presume that the "pink" sat-phone was TO&E issue for his unit. The radio beside him is a PRC-77. If he can squeeze 11 km out of the broadcast range with a fresh battery he'll be lucky.

I do hope that his command section has a bit more comms than displayed. I suspect that his main battalion TOC (tactical operations center) is elsewhere with considerably more comms.

So sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[RescueRanger]

"I have been around artillery in Pakistan for a long time and contrary to the perception you may get from the article, our gunners know their jobs well and don't take it lightly. I would go on to say that they are as good as gunners anywhere else in the world."

No slam whatsoever intended to the professionalism of your cannoneers. I'm sure that they're superb. I speak as a former field artillery officer who's put plenty of 155mm and 105mm rounds downrange with my name on them. Kudos for Mr. Burke if his description of cricket and cannoneers is true, even should the rear of the battery position not be quite the same as "...direct[ing] fire from rear bases".

"Also note that 25 Punjab is an infantry regt. The gripe against the Artillery blokes would have to go through their own CO who upon hearing about the little game of cricket would probably laugh it off."

I did note he was infantry. As I mentioned, the compound was impeccable. Damn near spotless. Amazing that the sandbags were filled and placed so neatly in such a short time. Col Baluch is fine using the sat phone for...whatever. I'm assuming that the bill's been paid and there are unused minutes. I'd use it too.

I certainly didn't presume that the "pink" sat-phone was TO&E issue for his unit. The radio beside him is a PRC-77. If he can squeeze 11 km out of the broadcast range with a fresh battery he'll be lucky.

I do hope that his command section has a bit more comms than displayed. I suspect that his main battalion TOC (tactical operations center) is elsewhere with considerably more comms.

So sorry for the misunderstanding.

S2, i think the Pink Phone is a Huwai or ZTE Wimax "V" reciever. This is becoming really big in Pakistan i dont know much about it appart from having used the modem function once to get mobile internet but copmanies in Pak have been trying to market these solutions to enterprises in the country and considering the large coverage area provided by the plethora of BTS installed by various operators many of which are Wimax towers, perhaps that would explain the suspect device althoug i cant stand the Shocking Pink colout! Hideous...

Anyways here is a diagram (try to make sense of it- Good Luck, Signals and Comms are not my strong point )

 

[RescueRanger]

A beautiful summing up of real Pakistani feeling :

Soldiers live, work and pray on their bases. The vast majority are devout. For them, this is not about a war on terror, this is about their country and its future

Link: Jason Burke on the front line in Bajaur | World news | Observer.co.uk

 

[S-2]

"Signals and Comms are not my strong point "

Nor mine so an acronym-filled line diagram ain't much help.

I still think that he's talking to the wife and asking about the kids...or trying to find that artillery commander who's off playing cricket in some ravine somewhere.

 

[fatman17]

Fat sir,

In my opinion, 25 Punjab is a regiment with very rich traditions and battle honours, however it does not indicate that its an elite infantry unit. On efficiency scale, I am sure Baloch, FF, Sind and NLI would be able to put up a regiment as good as the 25th Punjabis.

Its just depends on which divisions are inducted into the theater. If 25 punjabis are part of the Div, they go along as any other regiment would.

thanks blain2, i am aware how the army operates, what i meant was front-line troops are now involved and usually most are part of elite units or strike corps.

...and 25th Punjabis is not my unit!

 

[fatman17]

"I have been around artillery in Pakistan for a long time and contrary to the perception you may get from the article, our gunners know their jobs well and don't take it lightly. I would go on to say that they are as good as gunners anywhere else in the world."

No slam whatsoever intended to the professionalism of your cannoneers. I'm sure that they're superb. I speak as a former field artillery officer who's put plenty of 155mm and 105mm rounds downrange with my name on them. Kudos for Mr. Burke if his description of cricket and cannoneers is true, even should the rear of the battery position not be quite the same as "...direct[ing] fire from rear bases".

"Also note that 25 Punjab is an infantry regt. The gripe against the Artillery blokes would have to go through their own CO who upon hearing about the little game of cricket would probably laugh it off."

I did note he was infantry. As I mentioned, the compound was impeccable. Damn near spotless. Amazing that the sandbags were filled and placed so neatly in such a short time. Col Baluch is fine using the sat phone for...whatever. I'm assuming that the bill's been paid and there are unused minutes. I'd use it too.

I certainly didn't presume that the "pink" sat-phone was TO&E issue for his unit. The radio beside him is a PRC-77. If he can squeeze 11 km out of the broadcast range with a fresh battery he'll be lucky.

I do hope that his command section has a bit more comms than displayed. I suspect that his main battalion TOC (tactical operations center) is elsewhere with considerably more comms.

So sorry for the misunderstanding.

i dont want to get into the nuances of who getting credit for the ops but i am sure everyone is aware of this addage in our army " the artillery wallas are known as the Queens of the Army" or in US slang "In the rear with the gear"

 

[S-2]

"...'In the rear with the gear'"

Well, we are notorious slackers, to be sure.

 

[fatman17]

"...'In the rear with the gear'"

Well, we are notorious slackers, to be sure.

maybe its the equipment u guys have to lug around!
Cheers!

 

[fatman17]

Pakistan army stages UAV shoot-down exercise

Kyodo via The Associated Press

Posted : Friday Nov 21, 2008.

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan’s army has conducted a military exercise to shoot down drones, the Defense Ministry said Friday in the wake of repeated incidents involving unmanned U.S. drones flying across the border from Afghanistan targeting militant hideouts.

The ministry, in a statement, said the army’s air defense wing used surface-to-air Anza missiles and radar-controlled guns in the exercise conducted at Khudai range at Muzaffar Garh, about 480 kilometers southwest of Islamabad in Punjab province, which concluded Friday.

”The elements of Army Air Defense demonstrated their shooting skills by targeting the drones flying at different altitudes. The aim of the exercise was to provide live fire experience on air defense guns and short-range missiles under near tactical environment and handling of weapons and equipment during firing,” it said.

The statement comes a day after U.S. Ambassador Anne Patterson was summoned to the Foreign Ministry to receive a strong protest over a missile attack carried out by U.S. drones Wednesday on a residential compound in Bannu district, well inside North-West Frontier Province, killing six people and injuring seven others.

”It was underscored to the U.S. Ambassador that such attacks were a violation of Pakistan’s sovereignty and territorial integrity,” the ministry said in a statement, adding that continued drone attacks would undermine public support for the government’s counterterrorism efforts.

Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gillani’s government is coming under increasing domestic pressure because of its inability to persuade the United States to stop drone attacks inside Pakistani territory.

On Thursday, Gillani denied a U.S. media report that the Pakistani government had given its tacit approval to the United States to carry out missile strikes by drones inside Pakistani territory.

”Being chief executive of this country, I want to assure you that there is no understanding with the United States (on drone attacks),” he declared in the National Assembly.

The Washington Post reported Tuesday that the United States and Pakistan had reached a tacit understanding in September on a ”don’t-ask-don’t-tell policy” that allowed unmanned drone attacks on suspected terrorist targets in northwestern Pakistan bordering Afghanistan.

Navy News, benefits, careers, entertainment, photos, promotions - Navy Times HOME

 

[fatman17]

A Pakistani Journalist's View Of Afghanistan

John Moore

All Things Considered, November 21, 2008 · One major factor in reaching a resolution to the conflict in Afghanistan is the role of its neighbors, particularly Pakistan. A Pakistani journalist says the United States needs to understand that his country's stance toward Afghanistan is affected by its long-standing rivalry with India.

To start turning things around in Afghanistan, the U.S. must play a more prominent role in helping Pakistan and India resolve their differences, Ahmed Rashid says.

"If there would be a resolution to some of the disputes that exist between India and Pakistan, then perhaps the Pakistani military would feel less threatened by India, and therefore more willing to play the game of the international community in Afghanistan and stop backing the Taliban," he says.

Rashid, who co-authored a Foreign Affairs article titled, in part, "Ending Chaos in Afghanistan and Pakistan," tells NPR's Melissa Block that the lack of an Indian presence in Afghanistan during the 1990s was a "great victory for Pakistan." Now, Pakistan feels threatened by the possibility of India's renewed presence there.

"So we've had an escalating series of tensions between India and Pakistan related to the Indian presence in Afghanistan," Rashid says.

Internationally backed meetings between India and Pakistan could help lessen their "mutual suspicions and rivalries in Afghanistan," he says.

Rashid says the international community should also help strengthen the civilian government. Pakistan's intelligence service — the Inter Services Intelligence agency, which he called "a state within a state" — currently controls foreign policy along with the military, particularly in regard to Afghanistan and India, he says. And they are unlikely to give that control to the civilian government.

"[The international community] must help the civilian government politically, financially, economically strengthen itself vis-a-vis the military," Rashid says. "It's only after that, I think, that you will see perhaps the military entering into a serious dialogue with the civilian government on reducing the powers of the ISI."

Rashid says the aid that the U.S. currently sends to the Pakistani military should be shifted to social and economic assistance for the civilian government — a move that he believes President-elect Obama's administration will make.

"This would be an incredibly powerful signal to the people of Pakistan, to the extremists, to the region as a whole that the U.S. supports the civilian government, it supports democracy and it wants to help the people of Pakistan," he said.

Rashid also said that an important decision the Obama administration will have to make is whether to support President Hamid Karzai in upcoming Afghan elections — although, he added, another viable candidate has not yet come forward.

NPR : National Public Radio : News & Analysis, World, US, Music & Arts

 

[S-2]

The notion of "strategic space" is firmly embedded in most Americans who've read some of this area. Nothing new there, I believe, though this dovetails with Rubin/Rashid's contentions about a grand peace over Kashmir.

"state within a state" is a bit unusual from a Pakistani. Were I to make the same claim here, I'd be ripped apart.

Also, that the ISI and P.A. control foreign policy WRT to, specifically, Afghanistan and India is something new for me. Long suspected by myself, I don't know if any organization can "control" but it's easy to imagine how their influence is the prevailing mind-set.

 

[Munir]

The notion of "strategic space" is firmly embedded in most Americans who've read some of this area. Nothing new there, I believe, though this dovetails with Rubin/Rashid's contentions about a grand peace over Kashmir.

"state within a state" is a bit unusual from a Pakistani. Were I to make the same claim here, I'd be ripped apart.

Also, that the ISI and P.A. control foreign policy WRT to, specifically, Afghanistan and India is something new for me. Long suspected by myself, I don't know if any organization can "control" but it's easy to imagine how their influence is the prevailing mind-set.

Isn't everything controlled by CIA? It hink it is cheap to point at ISI while one should remind that it was the ISI that stopped Russia entering warm waters. Now suddenly he ISI is doing everything... Must be another Bollywood imagination then.