The army's present authority...where does it come from?

[VCheng]

The leadership is different and their approach is different.

Which activities are these? Quote news reports of the Army's activities, and quote parts of the constitution that say those activities are illegal. Only then will your accusations or ''critique'' hold any weight.

If you are unable to do so, I will simply reiterate that your argument is baseless, worthless and nothing more than a pathetic, shameful attempt at maligning the Army.

Educate yourself about the meaning of the word 'fact', because accusations so vague, unspecific and unsubstantiated are in no way 'facts'.

As I said, whether you choose to accept the facts as I have stated them, or not, is not my problem. Your knee-jerk defense of the indefensible is misguided, but understandable. Let us agree to disagree and express our views as we see them within what is permitted on PDF. Reality is what it is and shall remain so, of course.

 

[TankMan]

As I said, whether you choose to accept the facts as I have stated them

You haven't stated anything other than your unsubstantiated opinion and perception of what you believe the situation to be. There are no facts there. I will reiterate that you need to educate yourself about the definition of the word 'fact'.

Your knee-jerk defense of the indefensible is misguided, but understandable.

The fact that I have defended the 'indefensible' very well while you continue to spin in circles proves that what I am defending and what you are maligning is in absolutely no way 'indefensible' - in fact, quite the opposite, it is very defensible.

Let us agree to disagree and express our views as we see them within what is permitted on PDF.

If by 'what is permitted on PDF', you are alluding to some secret information you have, or that whatever you post will cause 'undue stress', spare us the bullshit. What else is not permitted? I doubt swearing or vulgar insults are necessary for you to prove that the Army's actions are 'illegal'.

Reality is what it is and shall remain so, of course.

Repeating this 'reality' of yours over and over again may make you believe it but for others, if anything, it makes us more firm in our beliefs, especially when you utterly fail to substantiate any of what you claim to be 'the reality'.

I'll reiterate my previous response since you failed to substantiate your claims: your argument is baseless, worthless and nothing more than a pathetic, shameful attempt at maligning the Army.

Have a nice day.

 

[VCheng]

You haven't stated anything other than your unsubstantiated opinion and perception of what you believe the situation to be. There are no facts there. I will reiterate that you need to educate yourself about the definition of the word 'fact'.

The fact that I have defended the 'indefensible' very well while you continue to spin in circles proves that what I am defending and what you are maligning is in absolutely no way 'indefensible' - in fact, quite the opposite, it is very defensible.

If by 'what is permitted on PDF', you are alluding to some secret information you have, or that whatever you post will cause 'undue stress', spare us the bullshit. What else is not permitted? I doubt swearing or vulgar insults are necessary for you to prove that the Army's actions are 'illegal'.

Repeating this 'reality' of yours over and over again may make you believe it but for others, if anything, it makes us more firm in our beliefs, especially when you utterly fail to substantiate any of what you claim to be 'the reality'.

I'll reiterate my previous response since you failed to substantiate your claims: your argument is baseless, worthless and nothing more than a pathetic, shameful attempt at maligning the Army.

Have a nice day.

It remains equally clear that blindly waving the flag will NEVER make what the Army is doing legal. What is legal and illegal cannot be wished away. The law says it clearly. What I have said remains correct, and truthful. If you disagree, so be it. It does not affect the truth of the matter at all. See, that is the best part of it all!

Edit: Yes, I admit that my argument has no merit and you are correct. There, happy now? I will end here.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Quote it and present it alongside evidence of the Army's violation of it. Anything less will be taken as an admission that you are wrong and unable to respond.

I understand what he's trying to say here. I won't go as far as saying that it is unwarranted abuse without any mandate. It does have something beyond just an 'air of legitimacy', this article was ignoring the aspects of this issue that exist anywhere other than the ordinary civilian mindset.

But his concerns are not misplaced, if you are indeed a supporter of the army's current endeavors, one must ask themselves the following questions logically, think not in specifics but the overall picture.

Has this been done before? If so, why are we doing it again? Even if the current approach is valid in the short term, is it viable in the long term? The answer to that is a resounding no, and implications go further... right, what are the implications? The status quo sucks, even supporters of it agree, yet for the answers to the questions above, they are weary of the army stepping in to handle themselves, even with the best of intentions and a mandate and public support, tolerance of status quo is separate to thinking it's the best option, long term or short term and both in turn are different to opposing the army overstepping it's natural limits, which undoubtedly seems great in the short term. In the long term, however, it's a damaging and repetitive game of musical chairs, a pantomime for the civilians to look on and woo the guy who hasn't had his go in a while and boo the guy who's been in and now needs out.

Go easy on @Syed.Ali.Haider, what he's hinting to has some truth in it. As much as my own emotions and thinking may wish to disagree, there's some part of my mind that cautions me and brings me back to this huge and ugly logical fallacy, that we may try this again and it will work and that somehow this time is different and therefore requires such steps.

 

[syedali73]

You haven't stated anything other than your unsubstantiated opinion and perception of what you believe the situation to be. There are no facts there. I will reiterate that you need to educate yourself about the definition of the word 'fact'.

Are you not expecting too much from somebody who only reads and appreciates his own posts or of those who unconditionally agree with his POV? Please take @Jango advice.

Haroon Rasheed saheb put it in very nice words:

 

[VCheng]

Go easy on @Syed.Ali.Haider, what's hinting too has some truth in it. As much as my own emotions and thinking may wish to disagree, there's some some part of my mind that cautions me and brings me back to this huge and ugly logical fallacy, that we may try this again and it will work and that somehow this time is different and therefore requires such steps.

What is the definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. Does it not apply here too?

 

[MastanKhan]

Answering abuse with even greater abuse of authority is no answer that can work for the nation.

Hi,

It works----. The ultimate authority has to smash down on inferior authority----that is how our system is----no ifs and excuses---plain and simple.

 

[third eye]

The article is written by an independent columnist on a newspaper - not the Army. The article is not needed. Nobody told Mr.Ayaz Amir to write it. Think about that for a second.

If I may add, Ayaz Amir is not known for being kind to the Khaki - a color he once wore.

This write is an exception.

 

[SQ8]

An "air of legitimacy" still falls well short of actual legitimacy.

Far be it for me to defend the Army needlessly. But in this case in places like Karachi where death is rife.. anybody would give them actual legitimacy.. and as government should always be "for the people, by the people".. it is the military that holds that actual legitimacy for government within the hearts and minds of the people.. regardless of how the intellectuals would like to bemoan that fact.

 

[VCheng]

Hi,

It works----. The ultimate authority has to smash down on inferior authority----that is how our system is----no ifs and excuses---plain and simple.

Actually Sir, if you go by the Constitution, it is the Army that is the inferior authority to its rightful boss, which is civilian authority. Turning this order upside down is wrong and illegal.

Far be it for me to defend the Army needlessly. But in this case in places like Karachi where death is rife.. anybody would give them actual legitimacy.. and as government should always be "for the people, by the people".. it is the military that holds that actual legitimacy for government within the hearts and minds of the people.. regardless of how the intellectuals would like to bemoan that fact.

The problem is that the law does not go by what intellectuals may bemoan or what populism may want. The military can never hold legitimacy if it violates its own oaths of office and acts in defiance of the Constitution, regardless of how fervently a5-5 kissers and boot polishers may try to justify its actions.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Same old cycle repeating itself, the incompetency and inefficiency of the corrupt leaders making room available for the army and we know from the past what may happen next. Besides the dozens of examples we see where the corrupt leaders are more into making money then doing anything for Pakistan. Just look at the recent heatwave in Karachi, hundreds dead, corrupt leaders into making excuses / blame game, having iftar dinners and people are sitting with heat strokes in the corridors of the govt run hospitals waiting for their number to come to be seen by the doctors. Army / Rangers again come into play and start giving relief to the people. Had the govt done its part it would not have come to this day.

From the things i see today, i see people distributing 'meethai' again in near future when these corrupt selfish politicians are sent packing. And the blame should squarely be on these pathetic politicians. The were given a golden chance, army was on its back foot, by delivering to the people they would have changed the things, but they again choose to fill their pockets instead of looking after Pakistan.

Hi,

It works----. The ultimate authority has to smash down on inferior authority----that is how our system is----no ifs and excuses---plain and simple.

Won't agree here Sir, in Turkey we saw the ultimate authority (the Army) getting smashed by the inferior authority (the democratic forces), but for that to happen the politicians delivered to the masses and with the power of the masses behind them, the army was contained.

Its our own corrupt politicians who make it happen.

 

[VCheng]

Same old cycle repeating itself, the incompetency and inefficiency of the corrupt leaders making room available for the army and we know from the past what may happen next. Besides the dozens of examples we see where the corrupt leaders are more into making money then doing anything for Pakistan. Just look at the recent heatwave in Karachi, hundreds dead, corrupt leaders into making excuses / blame game, having iftar dinners and people are sitting with heat strokes in the corridors of the govt run hospitals waiting for their number to come to be seen by the doctors. Army / Rangers again come into play and start giving relief to the people. Had the govt done its part it would not have come to this day.

From the things i see today, i see people distributing 'meethai' again in near future when these corrupt selfish politicians are sent packing. And the blame should squarely be on these pathetic politicians. The were given a golden chance, army was on its back foot, by delivering to the people they would have changed the things, but they again choose to fill their pockets instead of looking after Pakistan.

As long as this cycle repeats, whatever the causes, Pakistan will remain stuck in first gear trying to join the highway of progress into the 21st century. Blame each other. Repeat.

Won't agree here Sir, in Turkey we saw the ultimate authority (the Army) getting smashed by the inferior authority (the democratic forces), but for that to happen the politicians delivered to the masses and with the power of the masses behind them, the army was contained.

Its our own corrupt politicians who make it happen.

Sir, please keep in mind that the Army is NOT the ultimate authority by law. It is subservient to civilian authority.

 

[Hyperion]

I'm having a tough time deciding who is more evil of the two........... the politicians or the armed forces?

1. Politicians have swindled less as compared to the army as an institution (all sorts of scams - be it tenders, land scams etc etc, just the modus operandi is different - this is from Musharraf onwards).
2. Politicians have failed to provide security of life, where the army has succeeded (though at a great cost to individual freedoms)
3. Politicians have failed to provide security of property, where the army has succeeded (though at a great cost to Pakistan)

Now to other respected members here....... from the point of law, specifically constitutional law, I have some of the leading experts (lawyers) working for me, kindly do let me know where the hell in constitution do the Armed Forces derive their authority in national matters not pertaining to defense from external forces. Please quote the exact laws and references so that I can put forward the same questions to the experts.

 

[third eye]

kindly do let me know where the hell in constitution do the Armed Forces derive their authority in national matters not pertaining to defense from external forces. Please quote the exact laws and references

The answers to this should be interesting.

 

[VCheng]

The answers to this should be interesting.

It could be interesting, but more likely it will lead to strident proclamations of "pathetic, shameful attempt at maligning the Army". Who cares about the Constitution? We all know what the answer is as written in that document.