The army's present authority...where does it come from?

[VCheng]

Actually, Sir, the specific provision I mentioned is the one that gives the military mandate beyond just the geographical borders.

Therefore, simply claiming that they are transgressing the law is insufficient and the onus is onto you to prove that what the Army is doing is in violation of the Law.

Since you clearly consider yourself to be more knowledgeable than the Supreme Court and Civilian Government, this should be a very easy task for you.

But I am sure you will be unable to do so, as expected.

If you want to continue running in circles around the same facile, unsubstantiated argument, you are welcome to do so. But know that you'll only be wasting your time.

I have already said we can agree to disagree. You do understand what that means, right?

==================================

Please note that the specific article quoted is for a specific and limited set of circumstances, not a mandate that extends just about everywhere.

 

[TankMan]

Please note that the specific article quoted is for a specific and limited set of circumstances, not a mandate that extends just about everywhere.

I never claimed it extended to everywhere. What I claimed was that their actions have been within that limit. While the specific article quoted specifies that the Army may aid with civil matters when called upon to do so, it does not specify under which circumstances they may be called upon. Therefore, it would be wrong to say that the military being called upon the way it has been called upon to act in the way it is acting now is, in any way, illegal.

I have already said we can agree to disagree.

Very well then.

 

[Donatello]

Actually Sir, if you go by the Constitution, it is the Army that is the inferior authority to its rightful boss, which is civilian authority. Turning this order upside down is wrong and illegal.



The problem is that the law does not go by what intellectuals may bemoan or what populism may want. The military can never hold legitimacy if it violates its own oaths of office and acts in defiance of the Constitution, regardless of how fervently a5-5 kissers and boot polishers may try to justify its actions.

I hope you realize that what you state here is very simple. In actual world, or real world, sometimes things are not so black and white.
Nations take time to define their own destiny. There is no hard and fast rule to how the system works....one thing that is required by all is that of Speedy Justice and Law and Order. Governance, economics comes after that.
A Norwegian or a Swedish citizen would balk and laugh at the 'Democracy' and 'Capitalism' and the income inequality in the USA, which is essentially a Republic. However, an American living in USA might find the Chinese Communism and Socialism different and/or inferior. But that doesn't mean that their system is not working. It is just not what you want.
Same thing here in Pakistan. When the only publicly funded institution in Pakistan that enjoys consistent high ratings is the Armed Forces, you know there is something seriously wrong with the 'Democracy' or 'Republic'
A Chinese who has no right to vote would laugh at the living standards of the world's largest democracy : India

What works for you, may not work for me. Add religion to the mix, high illiteracy and lack of social cues, you get the picture.

 

[VCheng]

I hope you realize that what you state here is very simple. In actual world, or real world, sometimes things are not so black and white.
Nations take time to define their own destiny. There is no hard and fast rule to how the system works....one thing that is required by all is that of Speedy Justice and Law and Order. Governance, economics comes after that.
A Norwegian or a Swedish citizen would balk and laugh at the 'Democracy' and 'Capitalism' and the income inequality in the USA, which is essentially a Republic. However, an American living in USA might find the Chinese Communism and Socialism different and/or inferior. But that doesn't mean that their system is not working. It is just not what you want.
Same thing here in Pakistan. When the only publicly funded institution in Pakistan that enjoys consistent high ratings is the Armed Forces, you know there is something seriously wrong with the 'Democracy' or 'Republic'
A Chinese who has no right to vote would laugh at the living standards of the world's largest democracy : India

What works for you, may not work for me. Add religion to the mix, high illiteracy and lack of social cues, you get the picture.

I can agree with that, as long as one claims necessity of whatever the Army is doing, without claiming legality. That is perfectly acceptable, as an argument, for me.

 

[TankMan]

I can agree with that, as long as one claims necessity of whatever the Army is doing, without claiming legality. That is perfectly acceptable, as an argument, for me.

It is both necessary and legal.

 

[Donatello]

I can agree with that, as long as one claims necessity of whatever the Army is doing, without claiming legality. That is perfectly acceptable, as an argument, for me.

Again, what means 'constitution' in the west might be interpreted differently in Pakistan. In Pakistan it is a piece of paper that has 'amendments' added to it to nullify or re-ignite old clauses, whether done during Army rule to legitimize it's own power or by the corrupt politicians and the Mulla mafia.
So Army can simply say, add a clause that justifies Army setting up military courts and parallel investigation teams. All you have to do is write it on that piece of paper and wallah, it is legitimate now.

You know, Indian constitution claims that India is a secular republic. Good. On Paper.
In reality, how true is that claim?
Or, recently, the Indian Supreme court rejected the plea, that a constitutional ban on Homosexuality, is illegal, even though the High Court struck it down. There was much uproar, but Supreme court justified that since the constitution criminally forbade homosexuality, there is nothing the court can do. We interpret the law, not make it. So if you want homosexuality legalized, ask your parliament to amend that section of the constitution. Once they do that, we can rule it is perfectly legal.

So to each its own.

 

[VCheng]

Again, what means 'constitution' in the west might be interpreted differently in Pakistan. In Pakistan it is a piece of paper that has 'amendments' added to it to nullify or re-ignite old clauses, whether done during Army rule to legitimize it's own power or by the corrupt politicians and the Mulla mafia.
So Army can simply say, add a clause that justifies Army setting up military courts and parallel investigation teams. All you have to do is write it on that piece of paper and wallah, it is legitimate now.
........

So to each its own.

Again, I have no problems accepting that line of reasoning. After all, it is up to Pakistan to govern itself as it sees fit. It may not be able to create all the requisites for joining the rest of the world in the 21st century as a country with the rule of law, but hey, nobody is perfect.

Cream rises to the top, but on a dirty pond ..... well, you know how the saying goes.

Edit: BTW, what the Army does may be of debatable necessity, but of certain illegality. Undoubtedly.

 

[SQ8]

Sir, please keep in mind that the Army is NOT the ultimate authority by law. It is subservient to civilian authority.

Laws are dependant on how people want them. Unless you decide Shariah is the way to go and the Army will gladly let that happen.. its a win/win for them there.

 

[VCheng]

Laws are dependant on how people want them. Unless you decide Shariah is the way to go and the Army will gladly let that happen.. its a win/win for them there.

The Army has used religion to the greatest advantage among all those using it as a cynical ploy to manipulate the nation. Of course it will win again if the people demand Sharia and get it. I would not be surprised at all.

 

[SQ8]

The Army has used religion to the greatest advantage among all those using it as a cynical ploy to manipulate the nation. Of course it will win again if the people demand Sharia and get it. I would not be surprised at all.

Whatever it is, in the words of Najam Sethi.. when the country's own civilian intelligentsia has failed to throw up anyone intelligent enough to face off against them.. then why complain?
If Palin was the best republicans could do against Obama and Biden.. they should not not complain a loss.

 

[VCheng]

Whatever it is, in the words of Najam Sethi.. when the country's own civilian intelligentsia has failed to throw up anyone intelligent enough to face off against them.. then why complain?
If Palin was the best republicans could do against Obama and Biden.. they should not not complain a loss.

Who is complaining? There is no intelligentsia in Pakistan left to speak of, there is only corruptsia and militaria. That is all, the rest are observers like you and me. Or the suffering millions of unfortunates called awam.

 

[SQ8]

Who is complaining? There is no intelligentsia in Pakistan left to speak of, there is only corruptsia and militaria. That is all, the rest are observers like you and me. Or the suffering millions of unfortunates called awam.

Kis kis ka gham keejiye, kis kis ko roiye..

Aaram bari cheez hai, mun dhak ke soyie.

 

[VCheng]

Kis kis ka gham keejiye, kis kis ko roiye..

Aaram bari cheez hai, mun dhak ke soyie.

Agar neend aa jaye tau. Iss qaum ney sab kee neendain haraam ker dee hein.

 

[third eye]

I hope you realize that what you state here is very simple. In actual world, or real world, sometimes things are not so black and white.
Nations take time to define their own destiny. There is no hard and fast rule to how the system works....one thing that is required by all is that of Speedy Justice and Law and Order. Governance, economics comes after that.
A Norwegian or a Swedish citizen would balk and laugh at the 'Democracy' and 'Capitalism' and the income inequality in the USA, which is essentially a Republic. However, an American living in USA might find the Chinese Communism and Socialism different and/or inferior. But that doesn't mean that their system is not working. It is just not what you want.
Same thing here in Pakistan. When the only publicly funded institution in Pakistan that enjoys consistent high ratings is the Armed Forces, you know there is something seriously wrong with the 'Democracy' or 'Republic'
A Chinese who has no right to vote would laugh at the living standards of the world's largest democracy : India

What works for you, may not work for me. Add religion to the mix, high illiteracy and lack of social cues, you get the picture.

For discussions sake, does this not set a precedent that any organisation / person taking it upon itself/ himself to right all the wrongs by bending or breaking rules ? Yet throwing the book at anyone else who does the same ?

 

[Donatello]

For discussions sake, does this not set a precedent that any organisation / person taking it upon itself/ himself to right all the wrongs by bending or breaking rules ? Yet throwing the book at anyone else who does the same ?

Like i said, the system works in a different manner everywhere. What is wrong for you might not be wrong for us. India enjoyed continuous democracy for 67 years, Pakistan was handicapped for 40 years....yet India is still as much of a impoverished and third world nation as Pakistan.......
BJP comes to power, they redo all of what Congress did.....do they really need to? They just do it for the sake of it.
So if Army in Pakistan as an organization doesn't do it, some other political setup will. This unfortunately, is pretty common in the poorest of the developing world.