The army's present authority...where does it come from?

[VCheng]

Going back to the OP:

Every military operation in Karachi ended in failure, without achieving anything. But what the Rangers are currently doing, including getting to the bottom of things, was never attempted before.

So has the present operation in Karachi been declared a success already? Or is it too early for that and we do not know whether it will fail also?

Go out and ask people. Put the question to them: whom do you trust, whom do you look up to? You’ll get your answer.

Yes, these are the same people who distribute sweets when Martial Law is imposed, and then distribute sweets when it goes away. The cycle repeats.

If there is no electricity in this damned heat, will people’s nerves be soothed by lectures on democracy?

So Martial Law will provide electricity to these people? How?

 

[Gufi]

Yes, that must be why everything is working out in Pakistan so well, right?

the army could have taken over 3 times in this government they did not, that sir is what is the first thing that must be highlighted, secondly they can not let things go on because of fear of anarchy. Trust me if i know what is talked about in certain political meetings then the army must.

 

[VCheng]

the army could have taken over 3 times in this government they did not, that sir is what is the first thing that must be highlighted, secondly they can not let things go on because of fear of anarchy. Trust me if i know what is talked about in certain political meetings then the army must.

To the Army's credit, it has not taken power overtly. The soft coup engineered by the dharnas was enough for the time being. Good strategy, at least.

 

[TankMan]

Going back to the OP:

Translation: ''I can't substantiate my previous claims and I will now look for other ways to malign the Army''.

So has the present operation in Karachi been declared a success already? Or is it too early for that and we do not know whether it will fail also?

Strawman. The author never claimed it was a success. He claimed it had never been attempted before. He is right. As for success, if Zardari's whining is any indication, the operation is achieving a lot.

Yes, these are the same people who distribute sweets when Martial Law is imposed, and then distribute sweets when it goes away. The cycle repeats.

Do you have any evidence that it is the same people? Peoples' opinions can be divided in a nation of 200 million. It could be different people distributing sweets on different occasions.

So Martial Law will provide electricity to these people? How?

Strawman. It can provide law and order, which is just as good. But the article is not arguing for Martial Law. It is criticizing the civilian government. Criticism of the civilian government does not mean advocacy of Martial Law.

 

[VCheng]

Translation: ''I can't substantiate my previous claims and I will now look for other ways to malign the Army''.

Strawman. The author never claimed it was a success. He claimed it had never been attempted before. He is right. As for success, if Zardari's whining is any indication, the operation is achieving a lot.

Do you have any evidence that it is the same people? Peoples' opinions can be divided in a nation of 200 million. It could be different people distributing sweets on different occasions.

Strawman. It can provide law and order, which is just as good. But the article is not arguing for Martial Law. It is criticizing the civilian government. Criticism of the civilian government does not mean advocacy of Martial Law.

Okay, let's wait to see what happens in Karachi. After all, this is the same nation of 200 million we are talking about that welcomed past CMLAs and will do so again. Nothing has changed, including claims of how "this time it is different" which is one of the basic undertones of the OP. Where have we heard that before?

 

[Zarvan]

Then why is it that the OP merely claims the "air of legitimacy" without telling us just how this legitimacy is being achieved as you claim?

First people consider Army more legitimate than these corrupt rulers from PML N and PPP and MQM they have destroyed everything and Army has to come to countries rescue

 

[VCheng]

First people consider Army more legitimate than these corrupt rulers from PML N and PPP and MQM they have destroyed everything and Army has to come to countries rescue

As I said before, these are the same people who distribute sweets when Martial Law is imposed, and then distribute sweets when it goes away. The cycle repeats.

 

[TankMan]

Okay, let's wait to see what happens in Karachi. After all, this is the same nation of 200 million we are talking about that welcomed past CMLAs and will do so again. Nothing has changed, including claims of how "this time it is different" which is one of the basic undertones of the OP. Where have we heard that before?

Very well, let's wait and see. No point arguing about the future.

As I said before, these are the same people who distribute sweets when Martial Law is imposed, and then distribute sweets when it goes away. The cycle repeats.

And as I said, opinions in a nation of 200 million can be divided. Those welcoming Martial Law and those cursing it are different people. The reality is still that the overwhelming majority of people support the military fully - the number that supports Martial Law may be a little smaller.

However, no one is arguing for Martial Law. Your argument is a deliberate misrepresentation of the author's, and our, arguments. Criticism of the civilian government does not equate to advocacy of Martial Law.

 

[VCheng]

Very well, let's wait and see. No point arguing about the future.

And as I said, opinions in a nation of 200 million can be divided. Those welcoming Martial Law and those cursing it are different people. The reality is still that the overwhelming majority of people support the military fully - the number that supports Martial Law may be a little smaller.

However, no one is arguing for Martial Law. Your argument is a deliberate misrepresentation of the author's, and our, arguments. Criticism of the civilian government does not equate to advocacy of Martial Law.

There is no misrepresentation as I have said here:

To the Army's credit, it has not taken power overtly. The soft coup engineered by the dharnas was enough for the time being. Good strategy, at least.

For the time being, there is no need for taking over power overtly.

 

[TankMan]

There is no misrepresentation as I have said here:



For the time being, there is no need for taking over power overtly.

Your arguments were based on people first welcoming and then cursing Martial Law. They were therefore based on a misrepresentation as nobody was arguing for Martial Law. You giving the Army some 'credit' does not, in any way, mean that your argument was not based on a misrepresentation of the author's and our arguments.

 

[Screambowl]

First people consider Army more legitimate than these corrupt rulers from PML N and PPP and MQM they have destroyed everything and Army has to come to countries rescue

Just as a benefit of doubt. I want to ask, wasn't MQM raised my GHQ to counter Sindhi nationalism? Later entered the main politics.

edit: by

 

[VCheng]

Your arguments were based on people first welcoming and then cursing Martial Law. They were therefore based on a misrepresentation as nobody was arguing for Martial Law. You giving the Army some 'credit' does not, in any way, mean that your argument was not based on a misrepresentation of the author's and our arguments.

The author has not made any arguments, but merely tried to present a sycophantic justification of the Army's actions based on aspects that have no legal weight. My critique of this position is perfectly solid. It is okay if you do not accept that. As always, reality will win, just like so many times in the past. The Army's insistence upon playing a role where it has no legal role defined is based on the failures of the political system that it engineers.

As I said before, the cycle repeats. Very predictably. And sadly.

Just as a benefit of doubt. I want to ask, wasn't MQM raised my GHQ to counter Sindhi nationalism? Later entered the main politics.

This won't be the only time the actions of the Army come back to haunt the entire nation. It must have seemed like a great idea at the time.

 

[TankMan]

The author has not made any arguments, but merely tried to present a sycophantic justification of the Army's actions based on aspects that have no legal weight. My critique of this position is perfectly solid. It is okay if you do not accept that. As always, reality will win, just like so many times in the past. The Army's insistence upon playing a role where it has no legal role defined is based on the failures of the political system that it engineers.

As I said before, the cycle repeats. Very predictably. And sadly.



This won't be the only time the actions of the Army come back to haunt the entire nation. It must have seemed like a great idea at the time.

Which illegal actions do you speak of? Where has the Army violated the law? And which law has it violated? Pakistani Law? International Law? The fact that you haven't been able to answer any of these questions, despite repeatedly being asked to do so by me and @Jango proves that your 'critique' is baseless, worthless and nothing more than a pathetic, shameful attempt at maligning the Army.

 

[VCheng]

Which illegal actions do you speak of? Where has the Army violated the law? And which law has it violated? Pakistani Law? International Law? The fact that you haven't been able to answer any of these questions, despite repeatedly being asked to do so by me and @Jango proves that your 'critique' is baseless, worthless and nothing more than a pathetic, shameful attempt at maligning the Army.

Speaking the truth is not alignment. The same Army that declared Martial Law in the past (illegally) is still meddling in politics (illegally) and indulging in activities that are outside its constitutionally defined role (illegally). Those are the facts. Please continue to ignore them if you so wish. Convincing you is not my problem to solve. The results speak for themselves.

 

[TankMan]

The same Army that declared Martial Law in the past

The leadership is different and their approach is different.

is still meddling in politics (illegally) and indulging in activities that are outside its constitutionally defined role (illegally).

Which activities are these? Quote news reports of the Army's activities, and quote parts of the constitution that say those activities are illegal. Only then will your accusations or ''critique'' hold any weight.

If you are unable to do so, I will simply reiterate that your argument is baseless, worthless and nothing more than a pathetic, shameful attempt at maligning the Army.

Those are the facts.

Educate yourself about the meaning of the word 'fact', because accusations so vague, unspecific and unsubstantiated are in no way 'facts'.