Stop joking. Algeria is the only arabic/muslim country Russia consider !
Except that isn't very accurate nor does it take into consideration that fact that many states would prefer to ally themselves with the worlds dominant super power rather than a nation that is facing economic collapse due to the Ruble plummeting.
During the "Kippour War", USSR delivered SAM SA-6 system, wich was the best at this time.
And what did "the courageaous egyptian soldiers", when TSAHAL arrived ? Did they strongly and courageously defend the system to respect their agreement with USSR ?
No, they have fled loosely... so Isarel could understand the system with USA....
The IDF did not capture any Sa-6 systems from the Egyptians. Plus, it is generally accepted that low level AAA was responsible for the majority of Israels 300+ combat aircraft losses as SAM systems caused them to fly low, right into the sights of AAA and FLAK, so no not exactly "the best system".
The Thaghra which allowed the IDF to cross onto the western bank and capture (or at least photograph) several Sa-2 positions was as a result of the bloodiest and most ferocious battle of the war, The Battle Of Chinese Farm.
As for the courageous and professional and invincible Algerian Army, its only contribution to the war was one artillery mission in support of Egyptian troops, the two fighter squadrons you sent were non operational.
The real question of its discussion is : Wich Arabic country is sovereign ?
The only arabic country wich is sovereign, is Algeria!!!!
First understand the word then use it. Sovereignty is the ability of a state to conduct its affairs without outside interference from states or bodies, thus far in the ME the only states that are not sovereign and are not independent are those under occupation or in a state of civil war.
Egypt is depending about US dollars, and haven't the right to put a mechanized division in its own Sinai lool lol lol... Is this Sovereignity ? Stop joking. Put a mechanized division in Sinai and i will respect your country.
Today, your country is a toy in the hands of ISRAEL, wich is deciding about your own Sinai....
Over thirty thousand troops are stationed in the Sinai under the command of the 2nd Field Army. They include, mechanized formations from the 2nd and 3rd Army, Rapid Deployment Forces formations, Interior Ministry Special Operations, Egyptian Navy vessels, and Special Forces units as well as EAF assets such as Apaches, Mi-17, and CH-47, plus UAV.
Your ignorance is astounding. You can check my posts on Op Sinai in the Egyptian Armed Forces thread if You're skeptical.
and has not allowed NATO aircraft to use our space.
Shame it couldn't do the same for Mali, oh wait. Isn't France a Nato member!?
France says Algeria supportive of its Mali operation| Reuters
And the last case. In Amenas hostage crisis, with us citizens, britain etc...
If this crisis, was in Egypt or Morocco or Saudi Arabia, you can be sure that Seal Team or Delta Force Team should make the job, in an arabic land.
And in Algeria ?
No negociation, and massive attack no matter if the hostages are US or Britain, or French or other...
No information to US Departement State or Pentagone, or to anyone else. (Wich arabic country or country can do this ?!!! Russia, China and few countries, but no other arabic country which obey to USA !!).
And our team is making the job, like a REAL SOVEREIGN COUNTRY.
Conducting operations before we were even born.
23 August 1973 93 passenger Egypt Air Flight Luxor Airport to Cairo hijacked by three men, operation by Egyptian Special Forces resulted in the arrest of the three terrorists and zero civilian losses.
1985 Egypt Air Flight 648 with around 100 passengers hijacked by Abu Nadal terrorists, Egyptian Special Forces were sent to a rapidly deteriorating situation in which passengers were being killed every 15 minutes. Operation resulted in the death of two of the terrorists and one was arrested in hospital after trying to blend in with civilians. A complete balls up from the start only 58 of the 95 passengers survived, no losses to the Egyptian team.
1985 merchant ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, Egyptian Special Forces lead the negotiations covertly using the PLF's leader AbuAbbas (After talks between Mubarak and Arafat) to talk the hijackers down and that's why he was found under the units protection on the Egypt Air flight heading to Tunis which was diverted to Italy and they secured his release from the Italian authorities after heated negotiations.
3rd of June 1998 Operation Global Sky, merchant vessel tries to escape port without paying fees. After the Coast Guard tries to board the crew open fire on them, the Egyptian Special Forces are called in, all crew members are detained after an assault by boat and air using a fast rope, zero casualties.
Their last operation was recovering tourists who were captured then moved to Sudan/Chad. The hijackers came into contact with Sudanese forces which lead to them 'ditching' the tourists, the Egyptian Special Forces then found the tourists and returned them to Egypt. GSG-9 and KSK were deployed but by the time they had arrived the tourists had been returned.
Troops rescue kidnapped Egypt tour group | World news | theguardian.com
As for the Saudis their forces were not ready to deal with a hostage crisis during the Grand Mosque Seizure 1979 so they had to call for outside help, however in 2004
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Saudi commandos rescue hostages
I can not speak for other forces in the region, but, you're wrong, dead wrong.
and that ALGERIAN people is ready to face the DEATH to defend your wives, children, and land...
Yeah, we're all waiting, come on do it.
To finish, ALGERIA IS THE ONLY PEOPLE AND COUNTRY WHO DEFEAT A "COLONY OCCUPATION" in the History... and i hope that PALESTINE AND WESTERN SAHARA will be the second and third...
No, you most definitely aren't, brush up on your history, stop using platitudes, stop making stuff up, maybe read a book or two then reply. BTW wasn't there certain Arab countries that provided assistance to the Algerian independence fighters? last time I checked it wasn't a solo effort.
I'll reply to you, and not to the other "Wasteland" troll with so many lies and mistakes, that's even not funny.
I don't like him either, starts flame wars for no reason.
But Iran insists on getting PMU-version. I don't want to argue about which S-300 is "better" - the PMU-2 or the upgraded VM-versions. The point is that Algeria and now Egypt - along with Azerbaijan are the only "Muslim" countries that have these advances SAMs from Russia.
Now the next SAM, called PMU-3 or S-400 as we know it, is heading most likely to Algeria first, regarding "Muslim" countries. So Algeria will most likely be the first customer of S-400, if we compare between Algeria and Egypt. Azerbaijan will never get any S-400, that's for sure, because of the whole situation with Armenia, which in Russian ally through CSTO and Customs Union. Russia has also military forces in Armenia.
Now back to the question regarding Iran. I know that Iran has sued Russia, therefore Russia was offering Iran VM-version in June 2013, to "smooth" things out. However, in the meantime, Iran was developing their own S-300, which is called Bavar-373. I don't know how good that version is, but Iran isn't just sitting and "waiting for something to be delivered". They are "pro-active".
Furthermore, regarding Russian contracts to Syria and Iran; we all know that Israel and the U.S. applied massive pressure on Russia, between 2008 - 2013 regarding possible weapons deliveries to Syria and Iran. I was not just the pressure, but the U.S. and Israel were threatening to arm Georgia and Azerbaijan to counter Russian possible deliveries to Syria and Iran.
However, Russia decided to neutralize that "threat", so Russia started selling a lot of weapons to Azerbaijan themselves, thus making Azerbaijan rather dependent on Russian arms deliveries. It's a very delicate situation regarding Armenia and NK Republic, which is an pro-Armenian area inside Azerbaijan that is governing itself independently from Baku.
The same way Tiraspol is governing itself away from Moldova. The same way Abkhazia and South Ossetia are governing themselves away from Georgia and the same way Crimea now is part of Russia, while Donbass-area/Novorossija is an area which Kiev/Ukraine, does not control.
So you see, there are several areas around Russian borders that have delicate situations and "frozen conflicts". We are talking about four countries here, which Russia has some kind of armed clashes with since the early 1990s.
Now the West is again threatening to arm this time the Kiev-regime, the same way the West threatened to arm Georgia and Azerbaijan if Russia had delivered certain weapons systems to Syria and Iran.
Regarding Algeria however, there has been NO serious complaining from Israel regarding Russian weapons deliveries to Algeria. On the contrary, Algeria is the one that was concerned whether or not Su-30MKA had any Israeli-made components.
But Israel on the other hand never complained about Algeria as they do with Syria and Iran and since Egypt also borders with Israel, then Israel is definitely "your problem" - it's not Algeria's problem.
I think you've gone way off the topic I was off topic about but I will reply in a few short sentences so we can move this along a bit. First, there are two variants of the S-300 for a reason, they have different tasks and the procurement of a particular system is based upon requirements, the Iranians may have wanted the S-300MPU2 because they lacked point defence capabilities and their doctrine isn't based upon moving formations under the cover of SAMs where as Egypt needs systems which are tracked and accompany formations.
Anyway, the Russians have stated that they will accept orders for the S-400 from any of their current partners (of which Egypt is one) as the S-300 line will be closed down, as such orders for that system will be rerouted towards the S-400 as the S series system is a major export product for Russia, they won't just leave the market to other nations such as China or the US.
No one ever said the Israelis were your problem, neither are they our problem unless the peace treaty goes up in smoke.
On the contrary, even though I despise Israeli politics and occupation, I definitely do not "diss down" their military capacity. Again, on the contrary, I have pointed out their superiority over all other Arab countries, which is just a fact. No Western weapon in Arab arsenal can or will defeat Israel in any way, EVER. Those are the hard facts any Arab country, and even Turkey with Western shiny toys has to accept.
There is nothing stopping any Arab state from using any weapon against the Israelis and there is no evidence that the same equipment bought from the US is somehow superior in the Israelis hands. There is no real
technical data supporting that, the same system will feature the same radar, avionics etc. etc. unless there are specific changes such as the F-16 Sufa or the F-16 B60 or even the F-15SA and F-15I for instance.
If there is technical data please provide it, and provide good sources.
Oil canNEVER defeat technology, no matter how much Saudi-Arabia thinks that "oil is a weapon" - it's not.
The Ruble is about to collapse and Russia's economy is shrinking at an alarming rate. It's a pretty effective weapon.
Andthen, there are always nukes. The fact that Israel alone can flatten whole UAE, Egypt, Turkey and Saudi-Arabia, while the latter countries again cannot do a squat about it.
So defeating Israel at any point in the future is useless. So the question is why does some Arab countries have such huge arsenals of shiny toys when they know they will never be able to make nuclear weapons, and they know that Western and Israeli technology is way about any Arab technology. So that's why I can this arsenal for "shiny toys", because they for the most part are.
Again, your entire argument is based upon hyperbole and platitudes. The Israelis retain the nuclear deterrent as a last precaution, and what defeat means may be relative, do you see defeat as driving them all into the sea or wining a small skirmish over gas fields or ending the occupation.
If you read up on nuclear projects in the ME you would find the nations you mentioned have the capability to start weapons programs, however, what is more important than the ability is the political will, as sanctions would be placed like in Iran and in the past Pakistan. I think you're completely ignoring how serious the use of WMD in the region would be and the international implications of that usage. MAD is not a nice thing to aim for.
In reality Saudi-Arabia and UAE can only wage a war in Yemen and their own "turf" with those kind of weapons, but never against Israel.
Same goes for Egypt. If you want to do some kind of "warfare" in Libya against terrorists, that is something you can do. If you want to attack Sudan or Ethiopia, then of course, those shiny F-16 toys will beat Sudan and Ethiopia and the terrorists in eastern Libya. But try against Israel, and you know what happens.
As mentioned, Turkey experienced that already in 2010, regarding Israel.
There are no technical reasons to back up your claims, just provide them and the sources. The Turkish Flotilla incident had nothing to do with the Turkish state, it was a multinational NGO effort to supply Gaza with aid, if you're suggesting nations should just go to war because a few people got killed then we would be in the midst of world war 15 by now.
And thesame goes for Turkish arsenal. Unless they wanna be tough against Israel or NATO and the EU member Greece, I don't see why they have that weapons arsenal they have. Unless they are so afraid of PKK/YPG - but you don't need that kind of arsenal to defeat PKK.
Or if Erdogan gets crazy and want to attack Armenia, then he will be de facto in a war against Russia and the CSTO.
Realism (international relations) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Look at the mess with India and their Rafale. They want 126 of them, and they are still arguing with France, three years after they "chose" France and the Rafale. Now India is threatening to cancel the whole deal and countinue to produce Su-30MKI.
Also another huge point here is that even if India decided right now while I am writing this, that they have finally agreed with France, the "last" Rafale - meaning the 126th Rafale will NOT be ready and operational before 2025 or even later. It's a massive waste of resources.
The issue with that deal is the Indians want Das to sign a deal in which it will have to guarantee that every fighter produced by HAL (Indian firm) will be up to standard, Das don't want to do that, the deal could have been signed ages ago.
The project is going to take that long because India wants to produce a production line and absorb a lot of the Rafale's technology, plus other things such as training crews, pilots, building infrastructure, and many other things that come with absorbing a new fighter. Anyway the average time to produce a fighter squadron is a year and a bit, the addition of 126 Rafale is massive.
I believe there is no point for Algeria to have 200+ 4th gen fighters in 2015 and onwards because we are looking at 5th gen aircraft "era" now. So by 2019-2020 we will have U.S., Chinese and Russian 5th gen aircraft operational. Therefore I really don't see the point to order, let's say another 150 4th/4.5th gen aircraft this year and then sit and wait for them well into early 2020s.
Therefore I don't see the point for Algeria to have 200 - 250 4th generation aircraft, by 2019-2020, since the 5th generation aircraft from Russia and China are getting ready, and S-400 SAM being offered most likely already from 2016 and onwards.
Money should be saved for hard times, which Algeria did (almost 200 billion USD), now that oil prices have suddenly plummeted. Furthermore, it is extremely expencive to replace 200 - 250 4th generation fighters with 100 - 150 5th generation fighters for countries such as Algeria, Egypt, and even Turkey.
Therefore having a few dozen well-prepared Su-30MKA along with Yak-130 and MiG-29s with the support of S-300PMU2 (soon S-400) + Improved Kilos, corvettes and frigates is more than sufficient for the next few years.
I am sure Algeria will order Su-34 to replace Su-24/MiG-25, and will most likely order Su-35 as well. But they won't be in huge numbers as there is no point. Money has to be kept for 5th gen fighters and generally for "hard times". Also, Algeria is spending 7 billion USD now on fighting terrorism out of the total "defense budget" of 20 billion USD. Which shows what is the huge focus on Algeria's part.
You're still looking at this all wrong, there is nothing wrong with the size of the AAF or anything else or the type of aircraft it has. You can keep on adding potent platforms and systems, however, that will not be a massive boost unless the AAF adopts net centrism and modern warfare doctrines.
Communication is the most vital part of the modern battlefield, the AAF still doesn't get that.
The lack of AWAC/ELINT/SIGNIT/EW aircraft proves it as does the lack of military fibre optic cable networks, your battle management and thus the command and control of your forces will be/is poor and thus your forces capabilities to rapidly adapt and overcome changing circumstances by way of transferring information rapidly to command then receiving orders or visa versa will be poor.
You can keep on looking at this from a one dimensional viewpoint which focuses on the type of aircraft flown vs another or a type of SAM etc. etc. but in modern combined arms and net centric warfare one type vs another type is not guaranteed and the enemy will exploit your inability to react rapidly to different situations.
Detailed explanation of NCW in the first link, wiki does an OK job though.
http://www.dodccrp.org/files/Alberts_NCW.pdf
Network-centric warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is what you need not another big name fighter jet or SAM.
