Thar Block II Unearths Coal.

[Canuck786]

..

..

Something wrong with this diagram. We don't have such huge share of Biomass renewable wastes nor do we have such low Hydro Electric generation.

 

[Clutch]

@The Accountant @Clutch

The calculated costs per kWh of wind-generated power, as a function of the wind regime at the chosen sites, are shown in Figure 1.8. As illustrated, the costs range from approximately 7-10 c€/kWh at sites with low average wind speeds, to approximately 5-6.5 c€/kWh at windy coastal sites, with an average of approximately 7c€/kWh at a wind site with average wind speeds.

Which figure... What source are you referencing?

 

[Samlee]

Yes but every mine has diferent requirement due to different conditions different chemical composition ... We have to work on it and design machines as per our specific requirements which is a time taking exercise ...

For your understanding few of the variabkes to be considered ..

Specific heat value
Sulfur content
Depth
Water availablity
Environmental matters such as temperature

I Think These Technologies Will Be Very Viable For Thar

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...eureka-moment-for-coal-to-gas/article4388467/

1.5 Barrels Of Crude Oil From 1 Ton Of Lignite Coal(Same Kind As Thar) At $28 per Barrel.Quite A Bargain

Similarly Australian Company IER Has Developed Technology To Produce A Cheap Oil Plus Metallurgical High Grade Coke From Lignite.Same With Sasol The South African Company

So Options Are There

 

[The Accountant]

I Think These Technologies Will Be Very Viable For Thar

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...eureka-moment-for-coal-to-gas/article4388467/

1.5 Barrels Of Crude Oil From 1 Ton Of Lignite Coal(Same Kind As Thar) At $28 per Barrel.Quite A Bargain

Similarly Australian Company IER Has Developed Technology To Produce A Cheap Oil Plus Metallurgical High Grade Coke From Lignite.Same With Sasol The South African Company

So Options Are There

Can't comment further as I am not expert in this area ... I think we should work on this on a different block ,,, for immediate goal use soem block for traditional method and for remaining block use conversion methods ,,,

 

[ziaulislam]

@The Accountant @Clutch

The calculated costs per kWh of wind-generated power, as a function of the wind regime at the chosen sites, are shown in Figure 1.8. As illustrated, the costs range from approximately 7-10 c€/kWh at sites with low average wind speeds, to approximately 5-6.5 c€/kWh at windy coastal sites, with an average of approximately 7c€/kWh at a wind site with average wind speeds.

sir it doesnt matter what the cost is, what really matters whats the cost /tarrif per NEPRA..and cost by NEPRA is above 10 cents...

pakistan has to import the turbines, provide a much better return...so even though a similar investment will cost 5 cents else where it will still be 10 cents if a RR of 17-20% is provided..
now that is tax free investment so the cost is naturally down

Beg To Differ B'Coz Coal To Chemical Technologies Go All The Way Back To Nazi Germany Infact Before The Rise Of Oil It Was Coal That Powered The Industrial Revolution




Quaid E Azam Solar Was Rs 22 Per Unit Corruption???? It Was Daylight Robbery Man

per educated pakistanis especially urban punjab and sindh "agar khata hey tou lagata be hey"

so terms are different..
corruption means day light robbery,
irregularities means major corruption,
efficiency and project saving means minor corruption and kick backs

Something wrong with this diagram. We don't have such huge share of Biomass renewable wastes nor do we have such low Hydro Electric generation.

no hydro project since last 40 years apart from ghazi brothra which it self was ridiculous expenisve project at its time like NJ is..both done for own reasons rather than merit

ghazi brotha was done to benefit punjab as its power house is in punjab while NJ was done to counter india dams building on N river..both though failed to do what it was suppose to do..ironic...

--------
PPPP performed much better than PM L N on hydro front in my opinion

PML N blocked bhasha dam construction efforts by WAPDA and shelved MUNDA due to fear of distorting loan figures...however, supringlsy it cleared both projects during this year(next govt budget), it will probably put them on hold again once it forms the govt which is almost a certainty as per recent polls

-------------
credit goes to PPPP for its support on thar

though PPPP performance overall was dismal, it had for sight of understanding that power has to be cheap, so it did focused on wind, thar coal(while foolishly blocking all imported projects) and hydro (constructing 3 cheap 120MW hydro projects, NJ, mangla refurbishing and acquiring 100% funding for tarbela IV, V)..what it didnt do right was LNG projects but LNG was way expensive back than

 

[Canuck786]

..
no hydro project since last 40 years apart from ghazi brothra which it self was ridiculous expenisve project at its time like NJ is..both done for own reasons rather than merit

ghazi brotha was done to benefit punjab as its power house is in punjab while NJ was done to counter india dams building on N river..both though failed to do what it was suppose to do..ironic...
..

Hydroelectricity
In service
Station Community Location Capacity (MW) Status
Tarbela Dam Tarbela, KPK

34°05′23″N 72°41′54″E 4,888 Operational since 1974.
Ghazi-Barotha Hydropower Project Attock, Punjab

33°46′48″N 72°15′35″E 1,450 Operational since 2002.
Mangla Dam Mirpur, Azad Kashmir

33°08′31″N 73°38′42″E 1,150 Operational since 1967. Mangla Refurbishment Project is under construction wherein the generating units of Mangla Hydel Power Station will be refurbished by closing down one tunnel (two generating units) at a time. First two units will be refurbished by December 2018, the next two by December 2019 and the other two by December 2020.Refurbishment of all the 10 generating units will be completed by the year 2024. After undergoing refurbishment project is completed capacity will increase by another 310 MW.
Neelum–Jhelum Hydropower Plant Muzaffarabad, Azad Kashmir

34°23′34″N 73°43′08″E 969 Operational since 2018.
Warsak Dam Peshawar, KPK

34°09′50″N 71°21′29″E 243 Operational since 1960. Extension and rehabilitation is being planned. The total cost of the rehabilitation project €162 million is being co-financed with the KfW (€40 million), EIB (€4.5 million), AFD (€41.5 million) and Pakistan government contributions.
Chashma Barrage Chashma, Punjab
184 Operational since 2001.
Allai Khwar Hydropower Project Mansehra, KPK
121 Operational since 2013.
Golen Gol Hydropower Project Chitral, KPK
108 Operational since 2018[18]
New Bong Escape Hydropower Plant Mirpur, Azad Kashmir
84 Operational since 2013.
Patrind Hydropower Plant Muzaffarabad, Azad Kashmir
150 Operational since 2017.
Khan Khwar Hydropower Project Shangla, KPK
72 Operational since 2012.
Duber Khwar Hydropower Project Kohistan, KPK
130 Operational since 2013.
Jinnah hydropower project Jinnah Barrage, Punjab
96 Operational since 2013.
Jagran-I Dam Neelum, Azad Kashmir

34°36′1.52″N 73°45′44.20″E 30.4 Operational since 2000.
Gomal Zam Dam South Waziristan
17.4 Operational since 2013.
Satpara Dam Skardu
17.3 Operational since 2012.
Rasul Barrage Hydropower Project Mandi Bahauddin, Punjab

32°40′49″N 73°31′15″E 22 Operational since 1952.
Jabban Hydropower Plant Malakand, KPK
22 Operational since 1935.
Dargai Hydropower Plant Malakand, KPK
20 Operational since 1953.
Malakand-III Hydropower Project Malakand, KPK
81 Operational since 2008.
Shadiwal Hydropower Plant Shadiwal Warriach, Punjab
13.5 Operational since 1961.
Chichonki Malian Hydropower Plant Sheikhupura, Punjab
13.2 Operational since 1959.
Nandipur Hydropower Plant Gujranwala, Punjab
13.8 Operational since 1963.
Marala Hydropower Project Sialkot, Punjab
8 Operational since 2017.
Nalter-II Hydropower Project Naltar Valley, Gilgit-Baltistan
2.28 Operational.
Naltar-IV Hydropower Plant Naltar Valley, Gilgit-Baltistan
18 Operational since 2007.
Naltar-V Hydropower Project Naltar Valley, Gilgit-Baltistan
14.4 Operational since 2016.
Kurram Garhi Hydropower Plant Kurram Garhi, KPK
4 Operational since 1958.
Reshun Dam Chitral
4.5 Operational since 1991.
Renala Khurd Hydropower Plant Renala Khurd, Punjab
1.1 Operational since 1925.
Darawat Dam Jamshoro, Sindh
0.45 Operational since 2014.
Machai Dam Mardan, KPK
1 Operational.
Ranolia Hydropower Plant Kohistan, KPK
17 Operational since 2016.
Machai Hydropower Plant Mardan, KPK
2.6 Operational since 2017.
Daral Khwar Hydropower Plant Swat District, KPK
36.6 Operational since 2018.
Chashma Dam Chashma, Punjab
1.2 Operational since 2000.
Kathai Dam Muzaffarabad, Azad Kashmir
3.2 Operational since 1995.
Kundal Shahi Hydropower Project Neelam Valley, Gilgit-Baltistan
2 Operational since 1992.
Kel Htdropower Project Muzaffarabad, Azad Kashmir
0.45 Operational.
Leepa Dam Muzaffarabad, Azad Kashmir
2 Operational.
Pehur Dam Pehur, KPK
18 Operational since 2012.
Sishi Dam Chitral, KPK
2 Operational.
Jari Dam Mirpur, Azad Kashmir
1 Operational.
Chitral Hydel Power Station Lutkho River, Chitral
1 Operational since 1975.
Singul Dam Gilgit-Baltistan
1.2 Operational.
Pion Dam Gah
1 Operational.
Sermik Dam Skardu
1 Operational.
Basho-I Dam Skardu
1 Operational.
Tormik-I Dam Roundu Valley, Gilgit-Baltistan
1 Operational.
Haramosh Dam Gilgit-Baltistan
1 Operational.
Bubind Dam Astore
0.64 Operational.
Gilgit Dam Gilgit-Baltistan
10.63 Operational.
Skardu-I Dam Skardu
6.96 Operational.
Skardu-II, III Dams Skardu
1.64 Operational.
Chilas-I Dam Chilas
5.62 Operational.
Hunza Dam Hunza Valley, Gilgit-Baltistan
5.13 Operational.
Shyok Dam Shyok Valley, Gilgit-Baltistan
4.85 Operational.
Astore Dam Astore
3.11 Operational.
Kachura-II Dam Skardu
3 Operational.
Ghizar Dam Ghizer District, Gilgit-Baltistan
2 Operational.
Thak Dam Chilas
2.00 Operational.
Phandar Dam Ghizer District, Gilgit-Baltistan
2 Operational.
Bordas Dam Ghanche
2 Operational.
Kharmang Dam Kharmang Valley, Gilgit-Baltistan
1.89 Operational.
Yasin Dam Ghizer District, Gilgit-Baltistan
1.61 Operational.
Bunnar Chilas Dam Diamer District, Gilgit-Baltistan
1.5 Operational.
Roundu Dam Roundu Valley, Gilgit-Baltistan
1.52 Operational.
Kar Gah-I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII Hydropower Project Gilgit-Baltistan
13.34 Operational.
Hisper-I Dam Nager Valley
1 Operational.
Naz Bar Dam Yasin Valley
1 Operational.
Jaglot-I, II Hydodropower Project Jaglot
1.32 Operational.
Chalt Dam Nagar Valley
1 Operational.
Khyber-I, II Dams Gilgit-Baltistan
2 Operational.
Shigar Dam Skardu
1 Operational.
Shirting Dam Skardu
1 Operational.
Sher Qila Dam Gilgit-Baltistan
1.11 Operational.
Parishing/Louse Astore
1 Operational.
Darel-I, II Dams Ghanche
1.2 Operational.
Bunner Dam Chilas
1 Operational.
Tangir Dam Chilas
1 Operational.
Dunsam power station Ghanche, Gilgit-Baltistan
Boladas-I Dam Hunza Valley, Gilgit-Baltistan
0.64 Operational.
Khunjerab Dam Gujrab River
0.59 Operational.
Gol Dam Skardu
0.4 Operational.
Harpo-I, Harchu, Dainyor, Gurikot, Kayo, Dango Das Hydropower Project Various Locations in Gilgit-Baltistan
2 Operational.
Manthoka, Astore, Gulmit, Tolti-I, Khaplu-I, Kachura-I, Darel Hydropower Project Various Locations in Gilgit-Baltistan
1.5 Operational.
Khaibar-I, II, Mushki, Rattu, Misgar, Ghandus, Kiris-I, Thally-I, Mendi, Stak Hydropower Project Various Locations in Gilgit-Baltistan
4.85 Operational.
Tangir-I, Chillas-II, Hayul, Khaplu-I, Sumayar-I, Mehdabad, Nomal, Pari Hydropower Project Various Locations in Gilgit-Baltistan
1.5 Operational.
Jaglot Sai, Sermik-I, Olding-I, Thore, Minapin-I, Ahmadabad-I, II, Chalt-I, Sosat Hydropower Project Gilgit-Baltistan
1 Operational.
Jalalabad Dam Gilgit
1 Operational.
Hasanabad-I, II, III, IV, V Dams Hunza Valley
2 Operational.
Dumsum Dam Gah
1.5 Operational.
Balagond Dam Gah
1.5 Operational.
Ishkuman-I, II Dams Ishkuman
2.38 Operational.
Ashuran Dam

1.2 Operational.
Thall Dam

0.4 Operational.
Bumborat, Rashang HPP, Matta HPP, Shishi, Karora, Kalam HPP, Keyal, Kaghan, Duber, Jalkot, Gram Chashma, Damori, Keel, Pattika, Chinari, Serai, Kumrat HPPs Various Locations in KPK
2.2 Operational.

Source: Wikipedia

 

[ziaulislam]

Agreed. Historically Pakistan has lagged in use of coal. Over 40% of Indian energy comes from coal.

Compare to Pakistan which only used 6% from coal.

If Pakistan adopted coal like India it would free up 26% of the gas reserves which could supply homes, industry and even CNG vehicles thus reducing the expensive oil imports by a significant margin.

THESE ARE WRONG FIGURES, I MEAN MAJORILY WRONG

 

[Indus Pakistan]

THESE ARE WRONG FIGURES, I MEAN MAJORILY WRONG

Agreed. Can you please get the correct figure - don't have time. Thanks.

 

[Canuck786]

Agreed. Can you please get the correct figure - don't have time. Thanks.

The above is the capacity. Some plants may not be working though.

 

[ziaulislam]

the whole problem is oil

now compare it with china and usa

capacity is not what i am interested in, Billion units produced is much accurate figure
as you see hydro is still the king but oil screwed everything what was suppose to be adhoc measures in 1990s become a thorn

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Coal. Who is big on coal?

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/09/which-countries-produce-the-most-electricity-from-coal/

 

[Cybernetics]

Fantastic news. Please no "coal is bad" posts. It is but almost every developed country on earth has used coal to stand up and then when fully developed to begin diversifing about alternatives. The single biggest reason Pakistan has lagged behind India in heavy industry is the crippling lack of natural resources, in prticular iron and coal. I think only Japan has managed to stand up without having vast reserves of both.

Japan was heavily dependent on iron and coal during its industrialization. They got it from China. Even today they have large stores of coal.

Germany still consumes large amounts of coal for its electricity generation. Lignite (brown coal) + hard coal = 43% of energy production. Pollution is reduced by washing the coal and using good exhaust filtration systems.

Everywhere else where coal/iron was found adjacent to each other, South Yorkshire, UK. Ruhr, Germany, Saar, France. Pittsburg, USA. Donbas, Russia heavy industry took root. Even in India the Jamshedpur works are sited in the Indian coal/iron belt where the Tata family began their operations and now has become a giant.

The correlation between coal source and industry is indeed high. I think Pakistan will follow this trend.

BTW today wind energy is cheaper per unit than coal produced power and this technology is widely available in the world. Coal based power production is not only expensive but it is highly polluting and especially in Pakistan where the total forest cover is smaller than 2% of its land and suffering from lack of water and clean air, it will be devastating. Furthermore, we have alternate resources with are more abundant, cheap and very clean. We need to build dams and generate power from it and similarly we have ample wind and solar resource. I'm afraid that some bastard politicians will use this coal discovery an excuse to obstruct the construction of the dams.

I agree that clean energy and the environment are important.

Coal is really abundant and cheap (meaning cheap electricity), hence the popularity. With the discovery of the Thar coalfield, Pakistan's energy would have energy security for centuries and more coal fields are likely to be discovered. Honestly if Pakistan can properly harness its coal reserves, it can become a magnet for manufacturing, the implications cannot be understated. It can also be a net exporter of energy for the region. Exploit resources for a few decades and Pakistan would be able to quickly industrialise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thar_coalfield

The problem with many renewable sources is its inability to adjust to demand and it isn't suitable for meeting base load either. It is usually a component of the pie, not the whole thing. Even if there is perfectly stable wind, demand is not stable as it follows a sine wave. This means there would be immense waste of capacity. This means higher energy prices and less competitive industries. For some higher end industries like semi conductor manufacturing you cannot have electricity disruptions (not even a millisecond) at all or the losses would be millions. Even generators would be too slow to kick in. One solution is to use batteries and other forms of energy storage but we are not at a point where that can be cost effective and the technology is not mature. In reality energy generation from wind is unstable, even without factoring in costs. Wind is free but tapping into it is not, the turbines are expensive and require repairs/maintenance personnel and materials, after decades the machine degrades and requires replacement, along with financing costs, these are costs that are spread over its lifetime. There is no free energy if you need to build a machine to access it, there are costs associated with building, maintaining and replacing it.

Fossil fuel power plants are useful because they can very quickly adjust to demand changes and with little input waste and produce a stable stream of energy. The newer plants are quite clean and efficient, while the problem for many developing countries is the lack of controls on smaller (maybe illegal) coal plants that send its exhaust directly into the atmosphere.

Most nations employ a diversified portfolio of energy sources, coal and other fossil fuels tends to take the lion share. A nation can also take a path like France and pursue a focus on nuclear and they have about 75% of electricity coming from nuclear.

 

[war&peace]

Japan was heavily dependent on iron and coal during its industrialization. They got it from China. Even today they have large stores of coal.
View attachment 479616

Germany still consumes large amounts of coal for its electricity generation. Lignite (brown coal) + hard coal = 43% of energy production. Pollution is reduced by washing the coal and using good exhaust filtration systems.
View attachment 479617


The correlation between coal source and industry is indeed high. I think Pakistan will follow this trend.


I agree that clean energy and the environment are important.

Coal is really abundant and cheap (meaning cheap electricity), hence the popularity. With the discovery of the Thar coalfield, Pakistan's energy would have energy security for centuries and more coal fields are likely to be discovered. Honestly if Pakistan can properly harness its coal reserves, it can become a magnet for manufacturing, the implications cannot be understated. It can also be a net exporter of energy for the region. Exploit resources for a few decades and Pakistan would be able to quickly industrialise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thar_coalfield

The problem with many renewable sources is its inability to adjust to demand and it isn't suitable for meeting base load either. It is usually a component of the pie, not the whole thing. Even if there is perfectly stable wind, demand is not stable as it follows a sine wave. This means there would be immense waste of capacity. This means higher energy prices and less competitive industries. For some higher end industries like semi conductor manufacturing you cannot have electricity disruptions (not even a millisecond) at all or the losses would be millions. Even generators would be too slow to kick in. One solution is to use batteries and other forms of energy storage but we are not at a point where that can be cost effective and the technology is not mature. In reality energy generation from wind is unstable, even without factoring in costs. Wind is free but tapping into it is not, the turbines are expensive and require repairs/maintenance personnel and materials, after decades the machine degrades and requires replacement, along with financing costs, these are costs that are spread over its lifetime. There is no free energy if you need to build a machine to access it, there are costs associated with building, maintaining and replacing it.

Fossil fuel power plants are useful because they can very quickly adjust to demand changes and with little input waste and produce a stable stream of energy. The newer plants are quite clean and efficient, while the problem for many developing countries is the lack of controls on smaller (maybe illegal) coal plants that send its exhaust directly into the atmosphere.

Most nations employ a diversified portfolio of energy sources, coal and other fossil fuels tends to take the lion share. A nation can also take a path like France and pursue a focus on nuclear and they have about 75% of electricity coming from nuclear.

Examples of Japan and Germany are not valid for two main reasons (1) both countries have much larger forest covers than Pakistan despite having same or higher population densities. (2) They invested in coal technology when renewables were too expensive and technology was simply not ready to act as a primary source. They have already invested in the coal technology but both are phasing out and new installations have been banned.
Pakistan has a very little forest cover and warm weather so adding green house gases and other hazardous gases will have an adverse effect on the local and regional environments and that will hurt Pakistan more due to lack of greenery and health facilities. If I was in any responsible position, I would rather use this coal discovery as a bargaining chip to get a very favourable deal from the developed countries with technology transfer at subsidised prices which it will make the renewable cheaper or at least competitive with the levelised cost of the coal based power generation and then use coal for producing high value materials like carbon composites which is get Pakistan a lot of revenue and help grow advanced tech industry locally with carbon-composite sports goods to mil-spec parts for the defence and non-defence industries. However if we don't get a reasonable deal then we may go with certain percentage of coal based power but after taking necessary measures to safeguard our local environment like planting billions of trees every year (that we should do anyway and IK has done a great job in KPK so I hope, once in power, he can expand it to the whole country). We should focus on building dams for both water storage and power production.

 

[The Accountant]

Examples of Japan and Germany are not valid for two main reasons (1) both countries have much larger forest covers than Pakistan despite having same or higher population densities. (2) They invested in coal technology when renewables were too expensive and technology was simply not ready to act as a primary source. They have already invested in the coal technology but both are phasing out and new installations have been banned.
Pakistan has a very little forest cover and warm weather so adding green house gases and other hazardous gases will have an adverse effect on the local and regional environments and that will hurt Pakistan more due to lack of greenery and health facilities. If I was in any responsible position, I would rather use this coal discovery as a bargaining chip to get a very favourable deal from the developed countries with technology transfer at subsidised prices which it will make the renewable cheaper or at least competitive with the levelised cost of the coal based power generation and then use coal for producing high value materials like carbon composites which is get Pakistan a lot of revenue and help grow advanced tech industry locally with carbon-composite sports goods to mil-spec parts for the defence and non-defence industries. However if we don't get a reasonable deal then we may go with certain percentage of coal based power but after taking necessary measures to safeguard our local environment like planting billions of trees every year (that we should do anyway and IK has done a great job in KPK so I hope, once in power, he can expand it to the whole country). We should focus on building dams for both water storage and power production.

Bro, Renewable energy are costly why are you not getting this simple fact ?

You cant rely on hydel alone as in winter production is very low ...

Regarding value added products of carbon ... No one is stopping you ... Thw product you are talking about require very little quantities of carbon and will nit effect enwrgy generation ... By the way even to establish carbon fiber industry you need power plants ...

 

[war&peace]

Bro, Renewable energy are costly why are you not getting this simple fact ?

You cant rely on hydel alone as in winter production is very low ...

Regarding value added products of carbon ... No one is stopping you ... Thw product you are talking about require very little quantities of carbon and will nit effect enwrgy generation ... By the way even to establish carbon fiber industry you need power plants ...

Bro, I'm concerned with the local environment and health of the people. Pakistan should go for water + wind + solar + nuclear + biomass energy and if we have to use coal, it should be the most advanced cleanest technology and not something old and jaded spewings tonnes of CO2 and destroying the environment.