Thackeray wants Hindu Sucide squad

[Khalsa]

He has lot the media attension to Raj Thackray. He just trying to get spot light back. I think he should volunteer him self and wear a suicide jacket and look for terrorists in Kashmir's tough terrain.

 

[Flintlock]

The realities are that you too are cherry picking one aspect of the problem (the religious part) and using it to justify your argument of religion.

You and others who make the same arguments in their attempts to denigrate religion, conveniently choose to ignore the political underpinnings of a vast majority of these conflicts, because it does not serve the narrative of "religion, and specifically Islam, being the root of all evil".

Look, muslim terrorists openly claim that they are fighting for the cause of Islam.

LTTE claims that they are fighting for Tamil Eelam - they never refer to hinduism themselves, so why should we?

If the LTTE use Grimm's Fairy Tales to motivate their cadres to blow themselves up, does that now mean that the Brothers Grimm were evil?

No, but it means that there is something in the Grimm's Fairy Tales which has the power to motivate them to do such a thing.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

OK religion IS ideology. But lets drop that.

The point is that Islam already has the concept - Jehad - to motivate legions of suicide bombers.

Hinduism doesn't.

Talking about suicide bombing is one thing, and motivating people to do it on a large scale is another.

SA,

I thought you had some semblance of knowledge about Islam, since you go off on your tirades ever so often.

Do you have any idea of what Jihad means for most moderate Muslims?

The Greater Jihad - Spiritual Struggle

The lesser Jihad - Armed struggle against injustice.

Now if some one wants to distort the message for their own twisted aims, what is Islam's fault in this?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Look, muslim terrorists openly claim that they are fighting for the cause of Islam.

LTTE claims that they are fighting for Tamil Eelam - they never refer to hinduism themselves, so why should we?

And what control does anyone have over what they claim they are fighting for? They are already sick and twisted. It does say something about the lengths of intellectual dishonesty some people attacking Islam go to when they will actually accept the words of terrorist as being legitimate, and therefore representative of Islam, but not those of hundreds of millions of Muslims who say the opposite.

If terrorist choose to distort religion, it is not Islams fault.

No, but it means that there is something in the Grimm's Fairy Tales which has the power to motivate them to do such a thing.

It means whoever was reading Grimm's to arrive at that conclusion was smoking crack, and those that actually believed the individual smoking crack over large numbers of others who said the opposite after reading Grimm must have been on something straight from Afghanistan.

 

[muse]

Assasin

Tamils are Buddhists? no, they are Hindus. Do tamils use suicide Bombing? Yes they do!

Now you argue that this different than some Muslims whose political ambition is a variety of Islamism -- in both cases, how is it that you do not argue that the motivation is the furtherance of political ambitions?? After all is it not so??

Listen, reconsider - seeking to malign Islam by suggesting that the activity of political lunes for whom is Islamist rhetoric is just a tool, is Islam itself - it don't wash - at least not here. And if I may, it does not wash in most of the world either.

The original thrust of the piece is that some bigot has called for Hindu suicide squads - does that mean Hinduism itself calls for suicide squads?

The whole point of these interactions is that we may have the opportunity to have a more complex view of our experience, why reduce it to bigoted propositions.

 

[Flintlock]

SA,

I thought you had some semblance of knowledge about Islam, since you go off on your tirades ever so often.

Do you have any idea of what Jihad means for most moderate Muslims?

The Greater Jihad - Spiritual Struggle

The lesser Jihad - Armed struggle against injustice.

Now if some one wants to distort the message for their own twisted aims, what is Islam's fault in this?

That's the whole point - there is no consensus on what jehad actually is.

And unfortunately there are a number of rather frightening interpretation floating around which are being increasingly used (and were used in the past as well)

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

AM,

Indeed Jihad has two connotations.

However, the large majority follow the more violent one and though Islam has nothing to do the issue, yet these people sully the name of Islam.

And what is extraordinary is that even here in the forum there are people who support such elements, including these elements who are out to destroy the very state of Pakistan!! It is these types of sentiments expressed which is alarming to the non Islamic people wherein people are ready to support such anti national elements just because they perceive these terrorists as being the sword arm of Islam. I understand that it might bring delight to these supporters that terrorists are fighting the US and the "Great White Satan", but at the same time, the terrorists are also destroying Pakistan by attacking the PA and the public. This cutting the nose to spite the face is what alarms! That the so called moderates (who are not actively in the game of terrorism) are actually not so moderate and instead are fanning the fire!

As far as Thakeray is concerned he does not have the luxury of using religion to whip up a fanatic response as the word Jihad can, since I believe there are no such religious path in Hinduism.

Therefore, Takaray is a lame duck!

And quite a freak actually!

 

[vish]

This statement by Thackeray has caused more stir in this forum that in my city (Bombay).

Speaks volumes about the attention that the "aam junta" pays to Bal Thakeray, soesn't it?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

However, the large majority follow the more violent one

Last time I checked Salim, the large majority of Muslims were not out fighting with Al Qaeda or the Taliban, but rather being killed by them.

The last time I checked, Muslim opinion polls showed support for the above mentioned organizations and their tactics in the single digits in most countries.

Last time I checked most Muslims were struggling with life the way most people are, not trying to kill themselves for virgins.

So no Salim, I do not agree that a large majority of Muslims subscribe to the violent interpretation.

Even where they do, and this is what I mean by Neo Con window dressing, it is because they legitimately feel wronged and under attack (the Palestinians) and choose to lash out with violence. And by reducing the discussion to a sound byte of "Islam is violent", the real discussion into the root causes of the violence is brushed under the table.

 

[Flintlock]

And what control does anyone have over what they claim they are fighting for? They are already sick and twisted. It does say something about the lengths of intellectual dishonesty some people attacking Islam go to when they will actually accept the words of terrorist as being legitimate, and therefore representative of Islam, but not those of hundreds of millions of Muslims who say the opposite.

LOL...you are talking about Islam like its a living thing.

No its not "Islam's fault".

However, Islam is a powerful ideology that can be misused, and has been misused throughout its history.

All ideologies have the power to be misused - because they have the power to motivate vast swathes of people.

You have to keep emotions aside and consider the bare facts:

Islam stresses group unity and fighting for the common cause.
-has a fixed set of rigid rules that vary between sects, but never within the sect.
- has a set of rules for religious warfare, called Jehad, that are unfortunately open to a wide number of interpretations.


On the other hand,

Hinduism encourages individual worship, and the conduct of the indivudual.
It doesn't have fixed rules and regulations (or regimentation).
It has myriad interpretations that vary so much that two hindus rarely do the same thing.

If terrorist choose to distort religion, it is not Islams fault.

Its nobody' fault, but then Islam can be distorted...and that's my point.

It means whoever was reading Grimm's to arrive at that conclusion was smoking crack, and those that actually believed the individual smoking crack over large numbers of others who said the opposite after reading Grimm must have been on something straight from Afghanistan.

But you are forgetting one thing.

Its not possible to motivate people to suicide bomb after reading Grimm's fairy tales.

On the other hand, its possible to do so with the Islamic or Christian texts.

Infact, its possible to do so with Hindu texts as well, but the problem is that there are far too many of them for us to arrive at any consensus.

 

[muse]

Fascinating -- it must be very comfortable in the how "different" Islam is mode.

Well, I suppose just because you can lead it to water, does not mean you can make it drink - anyway, everybody comes to their understanding in their own time.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Last time I checked Salim, the large majority of Muslims were not out fighting with Al Qaeda or the Taliban, but rather being killed by them.

The last time I checked, Muslim opinion polls showed support for the above mentioned organizations and their tactics in the single digits in most countries.

Last time I checked most Muslims were struggling with life the way most people are, not trying to kill themselves for virgins.

So no Salim, I do not agree that a large majority of Muslims subscribe to the violent interpretation.

Even where they do, and this is what I mean by Neo Con window dressing, it is because they legitimately feel wronged and under attack (the Palestinians) and choose to lash out with violence. And by reducing the discussion to a sound byte of "Islam is violent", the real discussion into the root causes of the violence is brushed under the table.

I hope you are right.

It maybe true because the Islamic world has realised it is no win situation and it is better to go back to business as usual.

However, what about the support that one observes of the terror elements who are destroying Pakistan in the various threads?

Being aggrieved is fine, but when they are destroying one's own country, and are supported, it does indicate a very negative image of those who are attempting to believe that indeed the grip of the fanatics has diminished.

 

[Flintlock]

Assasin

Tamils are Buddhists? no, they are Hindus. Do tamils use suicide Bombing? Yes they do!

Yes, and Hitler and Stalin both had moustaches, therfore anyone with a moustache is a mass murderer!!

That sort of logic doesn't work buddy.

Now you argue that this different than some Muslims whose political ambition is a variety of Islamism -- in both cases, how is it that you do not argue that the motivation is the furtherance of political ambitions?? After all is it not so??

The motivation is infact often political.

However, I have no doubts in believing that Osama Bil Laden's motivations are far more sincere than that.

Listen, reconsider - seeking to malign Islam by suggesting that the activity of political lunes for whom is Islamist rhetoric is just a tool, is Islam itself - it don't wash - at least not here. And if I may, it does not wash in most of the world either.

Look - Islam is what muslims believe it is.

If certain muslims believe that islam is supposed to take over the world, then we cannot call them hindus or christians - they remain muslim.

The original thrust of the piece is that some bigot has called for Hindu suicide squads - does that mean Hinduism itself calls for suicide squads?

Anybody can stand up on a stage and call for suicide bombings. Have you see the crap they spew in the USA, in those Evangelist Churches?

However, it takes a certain number of people to believe in a certain ideology very strongly to kill themselves.

It takes a totalitarian ideology, which has enough power to convince a large number of people of its truth.

Till date, Hinduism hasn't shown that sort of power.

The whole point of these interactions is that we may have the opportunity to have a more complex view of our experience, why reduce it to bigoted propositions.

Well, for the record, I don't consider all muslims to be terrorists.

If I did, I wouldn't be talking about religious freedom and secularism.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood any of my assertions.

 

[shrivatsa]

Assasin

Tamils are Buddhists? no, they are Hindus. Do tamils use suicide Bombing? Yes they do!

Tamil is language and there are large number of Tamil Muslims and Buddhists ,Christians who has tamil as there mother tongue and ltte as a terror org has Tamil Muslim as its caders

even they have connections with al-qaeda

Osama hand in glove with LTTE

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

But you are forgetting one thing.

Its not possible to motivate people to suicide bomb after reading Grimm's fairy tales.

On the other hand, its possible to do so with the Islamic or Christian texts.

Infact, its possible to do so with Hindu texts as well, but the problem is that there are far too many of them for us to arrive at any consensus.

It is very much possible to fan flame with the Hindu texts.

However, it is indeed more difficult since it is not an organised religion and there is over emphasis on a libertine approach to the religion, wherein each individual has his own interpretation.

This has also led a very ''cool'' approach and hence making it go ''hot'' is a Herculean task!

As far as Christianity is concerned, it too is getting to laid back and the Church being riddle with corrupt practices is hardly having the same moral authority as it used to have!