Tejas Mark II – Aeronautical Development Agency needs to have realistic goals

[Beta-Fighter]

For someone who believes, that a project cost can actually become "nil" as part of the developed technologies are utilized for other projects shouldn't really talk of "business" -- It is the "project cost of LCA" and treated as such, not the "project cost of developing infrastructure for future projects including such and such" when it becomes that comeback and argue, for now the cost has been incurred for lca project, so even if the developed technologies are used elsewhere, it cannot derive the "project cost of LCA" down to zero -- they might reduce the project cost of other projects, but unfortunately for you, not the LCA, and like I said project cost one way or another is a detrimental factor in the per unit cost, so now you have an aircraft project that has exceeded the project cost of Gripen, and none other then your own media is reporting it .. and count in the imported parts from different countries and LCA becomes any thing but "cost effective" --

cant argue, the person who don't know iota about program. The program sanction first for the development of the Aero technologies in India. Effect the knowledge gained from Tejas mission computer is used to design and develop Indian Mission computers in Su-30MKI , Sensors technology develop as a part of the tejas program used in all IAF now. OBOG technology develop on the part of Tejas program used in all IAF planes now.

Design and Testing infra develop as part of tejas will now work on 5th gen .


Just for your knowledge , tejas is also have naval Plane and trainer plane as part of it , which is not in Gripan.

what a great quote, those who ride will fall, suppose thats the motto of the airforce whose backbone has earned the nickname of "flying coffins" --

India test the birds limit and Fly on the go, response time you can judge from the fact that IAF plane manage to short down PAK Navy plane while PAF plane cant even get their engine started in Karachi ( few KM away)

as far as the JFT is concerned, no need to worry about it, its inducted and there were subsequent changes made after the crash including strengthening in different areas of the airframe etc. and from that point on it has went and performed in two major airshows around the world and is nearing an export order -- and where is LCA exactly ?? -- ahh yes, the "testing phase" ... where it has been for a good part of last 15 years after its first flight in 01...

that's what I said IAF don't take sub standard material like PAF , which after crash found faulty and strength etc . we take full baked things. BTW after that crash your AF don't believe on JFT , still relay on F-16.

thata why you ready to buy 2nd hand f-16 rather then your own plane

Only time will tell, right now LCA has been pretty much dissed by your own airforce who are more hopeful for the MK-II version with estimates of "ohh we'll have it in 2020 etc." and to think your the one talking of "half baked products" -- I mean you were going on about how the "cake is still baking" looks more like " the cake being baked is already been sentenced a bad rating by the head chef already" -- aside from that -- the fact is this

MKII is the development process, tell why you inducted the JFT when even it cant fly in night? Which AF want to fly the plane which cant drop laser guided bombs and fly in night?

Indians pride themselves with the lca being indigenous --- it is not

then even Chinese plane is not Chinese and Airbus and Boeing is not US and Gripen also not Swedish ?

Chinese plane uses Russian engines,
Airbus and Boeing software are made by India and also components
and Gripen plane engine is US?
PAK tank uses Ukrainian engine

So your logic is flawed, come with better logic. lol , height of hypocrisy.

with it being effective, the IAF's "confidence" in LCA is telling on that where it is openly saying that its more hopeful for MK-II --

the same reason despite your have super duper plane more advance then f-16 , you still love to buy 2nd hand f-16. IN MK-II technologies will leap ahead and have some 5th gen technology.

then you have your last argument of "ohh we developed infrastructure etc." and the hope that there would be any good thing from it --- thats the only thing you have left and only time will tell if it ends up in your favor or not ...

you have live example of Dhruv and its technologies used in LCH and you still buying LCH from china or turkey .

On the other hand, the product that is not even in the discussion as the topic of the thread is LCA MKII, is the one being discussed by people like you -- so just for you, lemme just say, its inducted, it has actually flown and performed in A2G ops, its been inducted in the CCS and it is giving our airforce, a generation advantage over what its replacing --- while contending for export orders, with a much better version blk-II already in production and the much advanced version already on the cards ... so you don't need to worry about the JF-17, cant say the same about IAF though...

your JFT crashed and flopped in A2G ops that's why you removed from combat duty and you rely on f-16 to shave yourself from further embracement.

Hi,

In my humble opinion if Aircraft build today doesnt work for tomorrow for the Airforce, It doesnt matter the show must go on.
The invaluable experience gained from project, must be used in other projects. Such wind tunnel, avionics, fabrtication and etc.

That is why projects have specific timeline. if the deadline is not met. One can always look into other projects and used the experienced gained form the project that was let go

99% of people in India and other don't know fully about the project . project was started to develop the Aero space technologies IN India like space technologies. The technology developed in this are used by IAF in various plane, Like mission computer development knowledge is used un in SU-30MKI.

IAF keep on changing the demands on behalf of Russian or foreign companies because once plane develop their bread and butter stopped.

 

[salarsikander]

IAF keep on changing the demands on behalf of Russian or foreign companies because once plane develop their bread and butter stopped.

Hi,
perhaps then the Tejas as A complete combat aircraft can be scrapped, but the project of developing Tejas into technological demonstrator is something that can be looked at. To develop and mature other hi tech goodies of fighter jet, such as one you previously mentioned

 

[Beta-Fighter]

Hi,
perhaps then the Tejas as A complete combat aircraft can be scrapped, but the project of developing Tejas into technological demonstrator is something that can be looked at. To develop and mature other hi tech goodies of fighter jet, such as one you previously mentioned

If you don't know , this is already underway , Tejas MK-II and 5th Gen plane is example. Tejas is used a technology development platform. Because Technology developed as part of tejas program which will used in all IAF planes now.

 

[salarsikander]

If you don't know , this is already underway , Tejas MK-II and 5th Gen plane is example. Tejas is used a technology development platform. Because Technology developed as part of tejas program which will used in all IAF planes now.

Hi,

I am unaware of TEJAS being used as technological demonstrator and not as combat project.

Care to pint out the specifics where i can increase my limited knowledge on such ambitious yet efficient project

 

[Beta-Fighter]

Hi,

I am unaware of TEJAS being used as technological demonstrator and not as combat project.

Care to pint out the specifics where i can increase my limited knowledge on such ambitious yet efficient project

You don't understand the internal matters , The tejas for IAF was working fine till Navy came and asked to more powerful engine for its plane , then hell broke loose and then IAF also wanted to have plane with same powerful engine, they don't want their plane look weak on papers in front of Navy.

Tejas Mark -1 will used to train pilots and to develop combat tactics and MK-II will be used to real purpose. if MOD want they can force the IAF to use tejas -1 for combat purpose. because all ex IAF pilots who flown the tejas said " this plane fly better then mirages -2000" , now you can see .

Tejas can preform HOT refiling which only gripen can .

 

[GURU DUTT]

True. It's in the best interest of Pakistan that India focus on Tejas...and Tejas only.

wow thats new

but anyway tejas is for IAF not PAF so be rest assured we know what we are doing no need to share your "gyan" as to what how and why we should treat tejas ... OK

 

[salarsikander]

You don't understand the internal matters , The tejas for IAF was working fine till Navy came and asked to more powerful engine for its plane , then hell broke loose and then IAF also wanted to have plane with same powerful engine, they don't want their plane look weak on papers in front of Navy.

Tejas Mark -1 will used to train pilots and to develop combat tactics and MK-II will be used to real purpose. if MOD want they can force the IAF to use tejas -1 for combat purpose. because all ex IAF pilots who flown the tejas said " this plane fly better then mirages -2000" , now you can see .

Tejas can preform HOT refiling which only gripen can .

Hi,

That is not answer to the question I posed. In fact you have taken the topic with me to some other dimension.

Allow me to use this opportunity to clear myself even further.

I for one support the project of TEJAS as a technological demonstrator but not as combat aircraft. ( even though what i think hardly matter) out of pure good faith.

As you mentioned the various technologies that are being developed for TEJAS are being used on MKI, right?


Trust me IAF and NAVY for that matter will keep on changing its requirement, due to kickbacks or whatever.

As a fighter jet with budgeted time and money, it has failed, but as project to develop and mature technologies ,it has achieved what i could not as fighter jet whole

 

[Beta-Fighter]

Hi,

That is not answer to the question I posed. In fact you have taken the topic with me to some other dimension.

Allow me to use this opportunity to clear myself even further.

I for one support the project of TEJAS as a technological demonstrator but not as combat aircraft. ( even though what i think hardly matter) out of pure good faith.

As you mentioned the various technologies that are being developed for TEJAS are being used on MKI, right?


Trust me IAF and NAVY for that matter will keep on changing its requirement, due to kickbacks or whatever.

As a fighter jet with budgeted time and money, it has failed, but as project to develop and mature technologies ,it has achieved what i could not as fighter jet whole

If you seen JF-17 , it is also in the same position as Tejas its, Like your Army claimed the failed missile test successful , Dose this make successful ? JF-17 when inducted cant even fly in Night , forget about last guided bombs etc? IAF cant even think about it with LGB's and flying in night.

So both air force is different standards , you PAF if plane fly is a good plane and for IAF if a plane cannot have everything then is not worthy to fight.

 

[salarsikander]

Tejas its, Like your Army claimed the failed missile test successful , Dose this make successful

Hi,

I am unaware of what you're saying. The Jet in question Is Tejas Not 17, you're more than welcome to give to invaluable input on 17 thread.

JF-17 when inducted cant even fly in Night

You see Both of project have different set of objectives. one was to get it into air asap and then, evolve it further. The point being made was that by the time tech system in 17 gets incorporated, pilot training and appropriate infrastructure would have been already set up. i will stop right here as i don't want derail tejas thread.

The role of developing TEJAS was not only to have combat craft, but to enable aerospace industries to develop (you have clearly mentioned that in past). There seems to be lot of incoordination between IAF and HAL, But that issue should let this project suffer. Projects have limited timeline and funds. thats how in the end you compare it, if it were viable or not.

IN case of TEJAS as combat craft IAF knows lot better than You me or HAL, But in terms of giving long-term benefit to Aerospace industry and IAF, TEJAS has succeeded there. These technologies can be used in other projects such as AMCA, T-50 or even in upgrading the current fighter inventory with local technologies, such as mission computer you mentioned of.

I am not in any way undermining or criticizing the project. in fact it has excelled in other techs but not as a whole combat fighter

 

[ayesha.a]

Hi,

That is not answer to the question I posed. In fact you have taken the topic with me to some other dimension.

Allow me to use this opportunity to clear myself even further.

I for one support the project of TEJAS as a technological demonstrator but not as combat aircraft. ( even though what i think hardly matter) out of pure good faith.

As you mentioned the various technologies that are being developed for TEJAS are being used on MKI, right?


Trust me IAF and NAVY for that matter will keep on changing its requirement, due to kickbacks or whatever.

As a fighter jet with budgeted time and money, it has failed, but as project to develop and mature technologies ,it has achieved what i could not as fighter jet whole

IAF does not have that luxury. They need to replace 300+ single engine fighters in the next five years. They cannot make up for all those with expensive foreign fighters, it would break them financially. A cheap, light fighter is needed in large numbers, and Tejas is the only option they have.

BTW, Tejas is better than almost half of IAF's current fleet. (Mig-21, mig-27, Jaguars, even the M2K in some parameters.) So there really is no reason to scrap the Tejas effort and make it a technology demonstrator. Despite the mockery of some Pakistani trolls on this thread, the fact is that the Tejas is quite a capable machine that can completely transform the lower tier of the IAF in a big way. So although Tejas may not be as capable as the latest and greatest stuff on the international market, it is by no means so unsatisfactory as to be relegated into a tech demonstrator.

It can carry the best A2A missiles, carry more load than all the mig 21s and mig 27s, fly circles around the jaguar in A2A, be fully networked with AEWACS and fighters with powerful radars (MKIs, Rafales), and so on. All this doom and gloom you see is undeserved.

 

[[Bregs]]

This aircraft will be successful only if IAF allowed it to be inducted in mark 1 capability, if they kept on changing there requirements then only mark2-3 will be inducted otherwise it will be a very useful demonstrator/guide for a future generations of aircrafts to be produced indigenously

 

[salarsikander]

IAF does not have that luxury. They need to replace 300+ single engine fighters in the next five years. They cannot make up for all those with expensive foreign fighters, it would break them financially. A cheap, light fighter is needed in large numbers, and Tejas is the only option they have.

BTW, Tejas is better than almost half of IAF's current fleet. (Mig-21, mig-27, Jaguars, even the M2K in some parameters.) So there really is no reason to scrap the Tejas effort and make it a technology demonstrator. Despite the mockery of some Pakistani trolls on this thread, the fact is that the Tejas is quite a capable machine that can completely transform the lower tier of the IAF in a big way. So although Tejas may not be as capable as the latest and greatest stuff on the international market, it is by no means so unsatisfactory as to be relegated into a tech demonstrator.

It can carry the best A2A missiles, carry more load than all the mig 21s and mig 27s, fly circles around the jaguar in A2A, be fully networked with AEWACS and fighters with powerful radars (MKIs, Rafales), and so on. All this doom and gloom you see is undeserved.

Hi,

I hope the post that i wrote was taken in a heavy mood. it was just a perspective.

The fact that IAF knows better and has a better understanding of its threat than a PSU, their view on the performance should always be taken into a/c. As they will be the ones using it

This aircraft will be successful only if IAF allowed it to be inducted in mark 1 capability, if they kept on changing there requirements then only mark2-3 will be inducted otherwise it will be a very useful demonstrator/guide for a future generations of aircrafts to be produced indigenously

Hi,

So IAF is not satisfied with MK1, but they are ok with Mk2, right?

 

[[Bregs]]

Hi,

I hope the post that i wrote was taken in a heavy mood. it was just a perspective.

The fact that IAF knows better and has a better understanding of its threat than a PSU, their view on the performance should always be taken into a/c. As they will be the ones using it


Hi,

So IAF is not satisfied with MK1, but they are ok with Mk2, right?

They are ok with foreign maal for reasons best known to them, hopefully govt forces them to induct them like it did with army in case of Arjun tanks but army inducted only 200 plus and rest buying from Russia T90

 

[salarsikander]

They are ok with foreign maal for reasons best known to them, hopefully govt forces them to induct them like it did with army in case of Arjun tanks but army inducted only 200 plus and rest buying from Russia T90

Hi,

No sir, this is not right way to say it. Men in uniform should never be disgraced as such.

After all they are the one, to whom you will fall back at times of need. they are ready to give their life, so that you can sleep well at night.

As i have said previously, they know their threats better than a PSu and hence asking for a bit of change in current situation is not wrong. All they want, is to ensure that they have good quality stuff, when it comes to defending their beloved country.

You wouldn't say such for Navy, because Navy is quite satisfied with what they re getting locally. But in case of Air Force, they're not getting the right equipment which is based around their requirements

 

[abdulbarijan]

cant argue, the person who don't know iota about program. The program sanction first for the development of the Aero technologies in India. Effect the knowledge gained from Tejas mission computer is used to design and develop Indian Mission computers in Su-30MKI , Sensors technology develop as a part of the tejas program used in all IAF now. OBOG technology develop on the part of Tejas program used in all IAF planes now.

Design and Testing infra develop as part of tejas will now work on 5th gen .

Just for your knowledge , tejas is also have naval Plane and trainer plane as part of it , which is not in Gripan.

Such a logical post, you started with defending the narrative of project cost going down to zero, and a question on how it would happen since the project cost is already incurred and the future/present usage of such technologies would only benefit those OTHER projects not the cost situation of the LCA project WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN INCURRED --has gotten you in a frenzy of mentioning every project that can benefit from it -- which has no relevance since it does not effect the costs associated with LCA at all ...

India test the birds limit and Fly on the go, response time you can judge from the fact that IAF plane manage to short down PAK Navy plane while PAF plane cant even get their engine started in Karachi ( few KM away)

that's what I said IAF don't take sub standard material like PAF , which after crash found faulty and strength etc . we take full baked things. BTW after that crash your AF don't believe on JFT , still relay on F-16.

thata why you ready to buy 2nd hand f-16 rather then your own plane

MKII is the development process, tell why you inducted the JFT when even it cant fly in night? Which AF want to fly the plane which cant drop laser guided bombs and fly in night?

then even Chinese plane is not Chinese and Airbus and Boeing is not US and Gripen also not Swedish ?

Chinese plane uses Russian engines,
Airbus and Boeing software are made by India and also components
and Gripen plane engine is US?
PAK tank uses Ukrainian engine

So your logic is flawed, come with better logic. lol , height of hypocrisy.

the same reason despite your have super duper plane more advance then f-16 , you still love to buy 2nd hand f-16. IN MK-II technologies will leap ahead and have some 5th gen technology.

This is actually getting comedic, I can also quote about specific incidents from our airwars, from Gnats landing on our runways thinking its an Indian airbase to what not-- so Mr go about and learn the differences in roles of aircrafts being used in the PAF and then comment on the F-16's and the JFT's --

I get it, you take "full balked things"that just happen to crash alot and make your crash record amongst the world's worst-- from Mig-21's (the flying coffins) all the way to the great SU-30 MKI -- good for you --
So after 15 years in testing, 30 odd years for the entire project, LCA is still yet to become mature as per your own statements and we're supposed to look in awe at how great a project it is -- then you go on and allege that it (JFT) cant even fly at night, refer to manticore's different posts in the interviews thread, you will find sufficient evidence in exact opposition to what you believe.. translation -- JF-17 is able to operate at night .. there was a whole thread on the issue with that conclusion right here on this very forum...


Lastly, talking about logic, research out the various inputs from design to weapon systems to engine to avionics and the inputs of different firms from many countries -- from Sweden, Russia, Israel, Uk all the way to the US -- lets take the example you cited -- the Gripen's design was done by the Swedes unlike LCA who has design inputs from Dassault (france), the radar for Gripen is an Ericson made PS-05 (swedish) unlike the LCA with a "hybrid" version of an Israeli elta -- while the engines of both aircrafts maybe from america, but the sweds have enough input in the jet to be atleast be called Swedish -- unlike the LCA for which different boards and media outlets alike are going "X%" of the jet is indigenous ... ever seen that with airbus, Gripen or any other example you cited --- ???

you have live example of Dhruv and its technologies used in LCH and you still buying LCH from china or turkey .

your JFT crashed and flopped in A2G ops that's why you removed from combat duty and you rely on f-16 to shave yourself from further embracement.

99% of people in India and other don't know fully about the project . project was started to develop the Aero space technologies IN India like space technologies. The technology developed in this are used by IAF in various plane, Like mission computer development knowledge is used un in SU-30MKI.

IAF keep on changing the demands on behalf of Russian or foreign companies because once plane develop their bread and butter stopped.

Our flop aircraft, is out in the world -- performing in different airshows, gaining positive reviews, going in different exercises both domestic and against the PLAAF -- as far as the ops from JFT being stopped, well could be due to the sudden crash -- but now that the problem has been identified and fixed --- there is no reason they aren't being used these days -- do you have any definitive proof that the JFT is not being in the Op zarb-e-azab right now -- I mean if you do, come to the JF-17 thread and state it there so we can completely go through your "claims" --

Lastly, since your the enlightened 1%, please justify how there aren't cost increments (something you claim) while the project is being delayed and consistently being redefined -- the bread & butter of others means cost increments -- that would be known to you if you knew "business"

Anyways, like other posters have mentioned, I'd rather not derail the thread any forward -- so cheers