Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM

[abdulbarijan]

Completely disagree with pathetic justification of maintanance issue

If u fear a maintanace issues than im sorry this state of mind will lead us to defeat just the sake of maintanace we wont buy SU 35 which is need of hour

J 31 needs a decade to be operational until than we sit like ducks

J 31 dont have maintanace issue but SU 35 has what rubbish when u defend ur country heart and sould these cheap pathetic justification blows my mind iff

I wouldn't call it a "Pathetic justification" .. infact it would be one of the variables in consideration ... You see as @Mark Sien (Im assuming your Bilal Khan Mark since all the threads you've been posting as of late etc.) points out the maintenance issue is not simply "just ONE issue" -- It goes in to ;

-Cost vs Benefits translating in to feasibility
-Opportunity cost ( the cost of 'choice' )

This is where the skepticism comes from, it is not the willingness of Russia that is under question, but whether the jet is the right fit for the job that PAF requires it to do ... Now instead of simply dismissing the argument as pathetic or what not is it not better to present a counter point so that the discussion can move forward ...

Coming back to the topic, the deal would be in the billions, so PAF need to be absolutely sure ... acquiring such a jet will surely fulfill the need of deep strikes and providing an aerial arm for the PN ... but how will PAF tackle the maintenance and cost issues ... if they do believe that they can ... then they should go forward with the deal ... otherwise other options are still on the table which include getting J-10B's or using JF-17's with a dedicated strike fighter in JH-7B's to be cost effective ...

If we do make the decision to go for it, the issue of 'what SU-35 we will be getting' ultimately will surface .. I mean after all .. we can't really expect to undertake a huge deal only to add increasing cost of weapons to be used with the flanker from the Russian side, so what sort of Chinese systems and subsystems will be onboard keeping in mind that this is the era of net centric warfare and we have to keep costs lower, which basically means integration with Chinese/Pakistani weaponry and the new generation weaponry we plan to get ... So there are still many variables that need to be sought out ...

Lastly, this is a big decision, and it should be explored thoroughly and contingencies should be in place as we cannot afford any other Kargil F-16 type of situation ... while acquiring this jet has many benefits, there are many reasons as stated to make us go otherwise as well ...

 

[batmannow]

I wouldn't call it a "Pathetic justification" .. infact it would be one of the variables in consideration ... You see as @Mark Sien (Im assuming your Bilal Khan Mark since all the threads you've been posting as of late etc.) points out the maintenance issue is not simply "just ONE issue" -- It goes in to ;

-Cost vs Benefits translating in to feasibility
-Opportunity cost ( the cost of 'choice' )

This is where the skepticism comes from, it is not the willingness of Russia that is under question, but whether the jet is the right fit for the job that PAF requires it to do ... Now instead of simply dismissing the argument as pathetic or what not is it not better to present a counter point so that the discussion can move forward ...

Coming back to the topic, the deal would be in the billions, so PAF need to be absolutely sure ... acquiring such a jet will surely fulfill the need of deep strikes and providing an aerial arm for the PN ... but how will PAF tackle the maintenance and cost issues ... if they do believe that they can ... then they should go forward with the deal ... otherwise other options are still on the table which include getting J-10B's or using JF-17's with a dedicated strike fighter in JH-7B's to be cost effective ...

If we do make the decision to go for it, the issue of 'what SU-35 we will be getting' ultimately will surface .. I mean after all .. we can't really expect to undertake a huge deal only to add increasing cost of weapons to be used with the flanker from the Russian side, so what sort of Chinese systems and subsystems will be onboard keeping in mind that this is the era of net centric warfare and we have to keep costs lower, which basically means integration with Chinese/Pakistani weaponry and the new generation weaponry we plan to get ... So there are still many variables that need to be sought out ...

Lastly, this is a big decision, and it should be explored thoroughly and contingencies should be in place as we cannot afford any other Kargil F-16 type of situation ... while acquiring this jet has many benefits, there are many reasons as stated to make us go otherwise as well ...

But the balance is with more we are going to get them cause we can't get the same brid capabilities wise from any other producer in the world ?
& with Chinese experiences with flankers our mentenice issue would be relsolved at least 75% ?

 

[aliyusuf]

...there are many reasons as stated to make us go otherwise as well ...

I may be wrong in the way I am looking at this or may be over looking something ... but one can assume that among the reasons for not going for these planes, once the initial overture has been made, would be ...

1. The payment and delivery schedule not suiting PAF
2. Level and promptness of spare parts availability and maintenance support ... not matching PAF requirements
3. Down-rated radar and / or sub-systems ... Irbis-E or top of the line missiles or Same EW suite not being offered
4. Unacceptable strings being attached to the deal or to the usage of the plane.

Other than that I don't see any reason for this to fail (unless of course the Indian pressure prevails).
Because at this level of interactions the general idea about the acquisition cost and the cost of operation must have been pre-determined by the PAF (provided that the PAF initiated the request) ... because one doesn't go into these sort of talks totally clueless ... homework is done before hand ... and if the PAF made the request then it had a general idea about what it was going to cost them and apparently they did make request so therefore they must be ok with it.

 

[abdulbarijan]

But the balance is with more we are going to get them cause we can't get the same brid capabilities wise from any other producer in the world ?
& with Chinese experiences with flankers our mentenice issue would be relsolved at least 75% ?

That would be correct, no jet currently "available" to us would be more capable then a SU-35 .... but the underlying need which the jet is supposed to fulfill can be done through other means ... albeit not as effectively, considering what the jet offers today ... but alot more cost effectively though ... But does PAF want to get cost effective with the protection of THE MOST IMPORTANT economic asset of the country ... like I said .. too many variables to say anything with confidence and it is likely that this stays that way till a deal is reached and reported ...

As far as the flankers maintenance goes, one can't put a number on it ... but remember China is also procuring the Super Flankers ... so maintenance wise one can say that it is possible to get spares etc. from China ...

I may be wrong in the way I am looking at this or may be over looking something ... but one can assume that among the reasons for not going for these planes, once the initial overture has been made, would be ...

1. The payment and delivery schedule not suiting PAF
2. Level and promptness of spare parts availability and maintenance support ... not matching PAF requirements
3. Down-rated radar and / or sub-systems ... Irbis-E or top of the line missiles or Same EW suite not being offered
4. Unacceptable strings being attached to the deal or to the usage of the plane.

Other than that I don't see any reason for this to fail (unless of course the Indian pressure prevails).
Because at this level of interactions the general idea about the acquisition cost and the cost of operation must have been pre-determined by the PAF (provided that the PAF initiated the request) ... because one doesn't go into these sort of talks totally clueless ... homework is done before hand ... and if the PAF made the request then it had a general idea about what it was going to cost them and apparently they did make request so therefore they must be ok with it.

Good point, it is also worth mentioning that we did have some experience on the flankers in the Shaheen exercises, or there were rumors of a Pakistani pilot flying a flanker in the PLAN ... It is completely correct that one doesn't get in to the negotiations blind, but it is also worth mentioning that one cant simply access alot of information before hand to make a swift decision like in the case of a normal transaction ... You have to get to the stages of trials etc. to get that information and finally deciding ... I found that third point of yours quite interesting, because most likely changes will take place ... lets look around because we're not the only customers China is also planning on getting these bad boys ... So most likely we'll be getting the same configuration as that of China ...
As with any sort of PAF transaction, things will go quiet for a while with a few fillers from some insiders if they are authorized to spill some of the beans ... and only then can a discussion like this take place with some certainty ...

 

[batmannow]

That would be correct, no jet currently "available" to us would be more capable then a SU-35 .... but the underlying need which the jet is supposed to fulfill can be done through other means ... albeit not as effectively, considering what the jet offers today ... but alot more cost effectively though ... But does PAF want to get cost effective with the protection of THE MOST IMPORTANT economic asset of the country ... like I said .. too many variables to say anything with confidence and it is likely that this stays that way till a deal is reached and reported ...

As far as the flankers maintenance goes, one can't put a number on it ... but remember China is also procuring the Super Flankers ... so maintenance wise one can say that it is possible to get spares etc. from China ...




Good point, it is also worth mentioning that we did have some experience on the flankers in the Shaheen exercises, or there were rumors of a Pakistani pilot flying a flanker in the PLAN ... It is completely correct that one doesn't get in to the negotiations blind, but it is also worth mentioning that one cant simply access alot of information before hand to make a swift decision like in the case of a normal transaction ... You have to get to the stages of trials etc. to get that information and finally deciding ... I found that third point of yours quite interesting, because most likely changes will take place ... lets look around because we're not the only customers China is also planning on getting these bad boys ... So most likely we'll be getting the same configuration as that of China ...
As with any sort of PAF transaction, things will go quiet for a while with a few fillers from some insiders if they are authorized to spill some of the beans ... and only then can a discussion like this take place with some certainty ...

Agreed ,
& with Chinese having the flankers , I'm sure we will never face a kargill like situation again forever ?
& that's the mind set behind the whoke SU - DEAL & its the reason which makes it more visible to us ?
Plus its the perfect leader which can lead our F-16S & THUNDERS to hit the right targets ,& if something comes to stop them , SU -35 can take the challenge head on , with a space link to our Chinese stalite ?
Altogether deadly combination for anyone have bad designs on us ?

 

[Shaheen786]

yes we should just imagine how the capability of PAF increases with these beast in the hands trained pilots of PAF i really pray and would love to see it painted in PAF colors but we should need in good numbers to tackle india specially after they will get the raffale jets

 

[Quwa]

I wouldn't call it a "Pathetic justification" .. infact it would be one of the variables in consideration ... You see as @Mark Sien (Im assuming your Bilal Khan Mark since all the threads you've been posting as of late etc.) points out the maintenance issue is not simply "just ONE issue" -- It goes in to ;

-Cost vs Benefits translating in to feasibility
-Opportunity cost ( the cost of 'choice' )

This is where the skepticism comes from, it is not the willingness of Russia that is under question, but whether the jet is the right fit for the job that PAF requires it to do ... Now instead of simply dismissing the argument as pathetic or what not is it not better to present a counter point so that the discussion can move forward ...

Coming back to the topic, the deal would be in the billions, so PAF need to be absolutely sure ... acquiring such a jet will surely fulfill the need of deep strikes and providing an aerial arm for the PN ... but how will PAF tackle the maintenance and cost issues ... if they do believe that they can ... then they should go forward with the deal ... otherwise other options are still on the table which include getting J-10B's or using JF-17's with a dedicated strike fighter in JH-7B's to be cost effective ...

If we do make the decision to go for it, the issue of 'what SU-35 we will be getting' ultimately will surface .. I mean after all .. we can't really expect to undertake a huge deal only to add increasing cost of weapons to be used with the flanker from the Russian side, so what sort of Chinese systems and subsystems will be onboard keeping in mind that this is the era of net centric warfare and we have to keep costs lower, which basically means integration with Chinese/Pakistani weaponry and the new generation weaponry we plan to get ... So there are still many variables that need to be sought out ...

Lastly, this is a big decision, and it should be explored thoroughly and contingencies should be in place as we cannot afford any other Kargil F-16 type of situation ... while acquiring this jet has many benefits, there are many reasons as stated to make us go otherwise as well ...

PAF may also consider the Su-35 a specialist asset that isn't flown as often or as regularly in peace time as would JF-17. I recall hearing that the Israelis used this method with their pilots, e.g. have F-15 people continue spending time on F-16s. This could help in keeping maintenance and operational costs manageable.

But at the end of the day the performance and operational gains will have to excel the costs by a major margin. I can see PAF justifying the purchase and costs on the grounds that it'd keep a quarter of the country's GDP in tact by making a naval blockade by India a headache.

 

[Imran Khan]

PAF may also consider the Su-35 a specialist asset that isn't flown as often or as regularly in peace time as would JF-17. I recall hearing that the Israelis used this method with their pilots, e.g. have F-15 people continue spending time on F-16s. This could help in keeping maintenance and operational costs manageable.

But at the end of the day the performance and operational gains will have to excel the costs by a major margin. I can see PAF justifying the purchase and costs on the grounds that it'd keep a quarter of the country's GDP in tact by making a naval blockade by India a headache.

but sir it will be ok ? i mean pilots will have experience of tactics on which not flow much ?

 

[alimobin memon]

Pakistanis AND Indians LETS calm down.

LETS SEE WHAT UNFOLDS with the SU35 rumours.

I am pleasantly surprised at HOW MUCH EXCITMENT the Pakistanis have over a Flanker purchase

For decade we watch you Pakistanis tell us HOW CRAP THE RUSSIAN fighters are

Very interesting AND TELLING I think,

The Flankers will cost alot more than what you guys have paid for a fighter in your history
They will cost you twice the amount to service and fly of any current PAF fighter.

But if by some miracle this actually happens YOU are acquiring a beast of a fighter and the Indians know as they swear by their MKI

I still would prefer any other fighter over russian fighters in terms of quality from the first day im against Su35 not because its better but because we are purchasing a super jet from a close ally of india. I'd rather invest in chinese 5th generation wait till they are available.

 

[Super Falcon]

I wouldn't call it a "Pathetic justification" .. infact it would be one of the variables in consideration ... You see as @Mark Sien (Im assuming your Bilal Khan Mark since all the threads you've been posting as of late etc.) points out the maintenance issue is not simply "just ONE issue" -- It goes in to ;

-Cost vs Benefits translating in to feasibility
-Opportunity cost ( the cost of 'choice' )

This is where the skepticism comes from, it is not the willingness of Russia that is under question, but whether the jet is the right fit for the job that PAF requires it to do ... Now instead of simply dismissing the argument as pathetic or what not is it not better to present a counter point so that the discussion can move forward ...

Coming back to the topic, the deal would be in the billions, so PAF need to be absolutely sure ... acquiring such a jet will surely fulfill the need of deep strikes and providing an aerial arm for the PN ... but how will PAF tackle the maintenance and cost issues ... if they do believe that they can ... then they should go forward with the deal ... otherwise other options are still on the table which include getting J-10B's or using JF-17's with a dedicated strike fighter in JH-7B's to be cost effective ...

If we do make the decision to go for it, the issue of 'what SU-35 we will be getting' ultimately will surface .. I mean after all .. we can't really expect to undertake a huge deal only to add increasing cost of weapons to be used with the flanker from the Russian side, so what sort of Chinese systems and subsystems will be onboard keeping in mind that this is the era of net centric warfare and we have to keep costs lower, which basically means integration with Chinese/Pakistani weaponry and the new generation weaponry we plan to get ... So there are still many variables that need to be sought out ...

Lastly, this is a big decision, and it should be explored thoroughly and contingencies should be in place as we cannot afford any other Kargil F-16 type of situation ... while acquiring this jet has many benefits, there are many reasons as stated to make us go otherwise as well ...

Fx car cant do job of corrolla most simple way it is to tell u yes corolla is a liitle expansive to maintain than FX car but in return corolla do the job this is why ratio of fx 1 and coroolla 10000 on street so for sake of sense prevails we need a jet which can fly higher faster carry more weapons and manuverability which paf lack in its entire fleet

 

[aliyusuf]

Even if the negotiations should proceed successfully for now ... a long ways to go and many stages and hurdles to overcome before these planes can become part of the PAF. Not the least, the Indian pressure to kill it altogether or water down the systems on offer.The first major hurdle is the Modi - Putin meeting later this year. Lets see how all this unfolds.

But what is interesting is that no matter if this particular deal happens or doesn't happen, it is now confirmed that the PAF is warming up to the idea of acquiring a heavy twin engined multirole fighter. That being the case and if push comes shove we can certainly look into J-11D with an AESA radar along with other goodies and the latest version of the WS-10 engine. Certainly a noteworthy option. Any qualms about China selling ... a so-called Flanker clone ... would no longer be holding this back from happening because Russia (in this case) has been approached first but the deal doesn't go through ... so no blame of encroaching on Russia's Flanker exports. This option would be safer ... less heavy on the pockets and with a lot of scope and possibilities for future enhancements and increase in numbers.

 

[abdulbarijan]

PAF may also consider the Su-35 a specialist asset that isn't flown as often or as regularly in peace time as would JF-17. I recall hearing that the Israelis used this method with their pilots, e.g. have F-15 people continue spending time on F-16s. This could help in keeping maintenance and operational costs manageable.

But at the end of the day the performance and operational gains will have to excel the costs by a major margin. I can see PAF justifying the purchase and costs on the grounds that it'd keep a quarter of the country's GDP in tact by making a naval blockade by India a headache.

That is "THE" point .. and there can be various dimensions of what constitutes benefits in return for the costs ... eg. having closer ties to another world power besides China ... Infact it can also be a gateway for joint air exercises with the Russians ... so there are several things that constitute a gain, even if one were to completely gloss over what the platform has the capability to do ...
At the end of the day we're mere commentators ... it is PAF that has to make the decision and determine if the SU-35 is indeed the right fit for the job ...

Fx car cant do job of corrolla most simple way it is to tell u yes corolla is a liitle expansive to maintain than FX car but in return corolla do the job this is why ratio of fx 1 and coroolla 10000 on street so for sake of sense prevails we need a jet which can fly higher faster carry more weapons and manuverability which paf lack in its entire fleet

Well how about you go out in your corolla in one of the "bazars" with small and overcrowded roads ... Similarly ... a guy earning 100,000 a month may go for a corolla, but he will thoroughly search the market before he decides to spend his hard earned cash ... and if in the process he finds that a Honda City can do a similar job albeit not as effectively on the motorway ... but it is economical and is smaller then a corolla yet is comfortable etc. which fulfills his need for a family car, he might then go for a city over a corolla ...

Similarly when your talking about this deal ... it is the underlying need that needs fulfillment ... most of us simply advocate for say SU-35 or Rafale because the idea of SU-35 or Rafale in PAF is appealing ... however PAF being a professional organization will have to make sure if what we're getting fullfills our needs ... and if those needs can be fullfilled in other ways that happen to be more cost effective, they might go for that ... what strings etc. might be attached as @aliyusuf mentioned in his post will also be another important factor to look out for ...
So lets hold our horses and hope for the best ...

Bhai for thise roads we have fx like jf 17 and F 16 we need what we dont have we buy it and please read my post get some sense out of it

We already have fx for smalll roads time to buy corolla for highway so it carry more passangers at once

Similarly SU 35 CARRY MORE PAYLOAD MORE POWER MORE ALTITUDE and it is open sky

What F 16 cant do SU 35 can do

USAF was not stupid when it had F 16 yet went for F 15 F 22 so in war you need different capabilities in different scinerios of war

In sea air you need to have twin engine jet this is why every navy uses twin engine jet because single engine wont do what twin engine jet can

We have more threat from sea now IN is growing and with CPEC and our sea borders stretched more we need potent fighter jet to cover sea Mirages cant do job alone

F 16 and Jf 17 mostly will fight in punjab and some sindh areas so sea area karachi thatha gwadar which potent jet u have only mirages against what mig 29k and SU30

USAF didn't have two major factors to consider ..
-It was and is not dependent on any other nation for fighter aircrafts ..
-USAF can spend much more cash on fighter jets as it 's economy can support it...

And you have that chronologically wrong, USAF had F-15's first and then went for F-16's because of the affordability etc etc...

PAF on the other hand has to be extra cautious with the deal it makes because there is too much at stake ... and therefore my entire rant of whole need and purpose etc etc.Like I said before other options are also on the table and one has to be careful in what they go with ...
Remember F-16 saga ... everyone is so proud of it ... trucks had its paintings which are quite frankly insulting to good paintings ... but lets not forget what happened after the pressler amendment ... hence, alot of factors need to be looked at before jumping to a decision ...

 

[I <3 PAK ARMY]

It's a new era for PAF this deal should be reached to its final conclusion ...

 

[Super Falcon]

That is "THE" point .. and there can be various dimensions of what constitutes benefits in return for the costs ... eg. having closer ties to another world power besides China ... Infact it can also be a gateway for joint air exercises with the Russians ... so there are several things that constitute a gain, even if one were to completely gloss over what the platform has the capability to do ...
At the end of the day we're mere commentators ... it is PAF that has to make the decision and determine if the SU-35 is indeed the right fit for the job ...



Well how about you go out in your corolla in one of the "bazars" with small and overcrowded roads ... Similarly ... a guy earning 100,000 a month may go for a corolla, but he will thoroughly search the market before he decides to spend his hard earned cash ... and if in the process he finds that a Honda City can do a similar job albeit not as effectively on the motorway ... but it is economical and is smaller then a corolla yet is comfortable etc. which fulfills his need for a family car, he might then go for a city over a corolla ...

Similarly when your talking about this deal ... it is the underlying need that needs fulfillment ... most of us simply advocate for say SU-35 or Rafale because the idea of SU-35 or Rafale in PAF is appealing ... however PAF being a professional organization will have to make sure if what we're getting fullfills our needs ... and if those needs can be fullfilled in other ways that happen to be more cost effective, they might go for that ... what strings etc. might be attached as @aliyusuf mentioned in his post will also be another important factor to look out for ...
So lets hold our horses and hope for the best ...

Bhai for thise roads we have fx like jf 17 and F 16 we need what we dont have we buy it and please read my post get some sense out of it

We already have fx for smalll roads time to buy corolla for highway so it carry more passangers at once

Similarly SU 35 CARRY MORE PAYLOAD MORE POWER MORE ALTITUDE and it is open sky

What F 16 cant do SU 35 can do

USAF was not stupid when it had F 16 yet went for F 15 F 22 so in war you need different capabilities in different scinerios of war

In sea air you need to have twin engine jet this is why every navy uses twin engine jet because single engine wont do what twin engine jet can

We have more threat from sea now IN is growing and with CPEC and our sea borders stretched more we need potent fighter jet to cover sea Mirages cant do job alone

F 16 and Jf 17 mostly will fight in punjab and some sindh areas so sea area karachi thatha gwadar which potent jet u have only mirages against what mig 29k and SU30

 

[trident2010]

I don't see why there is so much fuss about purchase of Su-35? Sooner or later PAF will have stealth/twin engine heavy aircrafts which IAF will simply deal with it. PAF will have max 5 squadrons of Su-35 whereas we already have 200+ Su-30 MKIs plus Mig-29s, Mirage 2000 etc.

Russia will do its business keeping their benefit in mind so are we. We are going to upgrade all the Su-30 MKI to super Sukohi standard and thus making it equivalent or superior to export version of Su-35. I am not even talking about new MRCA or FGFA induction which will be accelerated once any such deal takes place with PAF.

All this ofcourse provided that Russia choose to upset India and jeopardize defence deals worth billions of $$s it is having or will have in near future.