T-80 and T-84 Main Battle Tanks Information pool

[Abid123]

Would it not be better to buy 320 new T-84 Oplot M to replace the older T-80UD?

 

[Tornado23]

Would it not be better to buy 320 new T-84 Oplot M to replace the older T-80UD?

They were tested and selected. The tank never came to fruition in the pak army because of the low production capacity of the Ukrainian manufacturers for the tank

 

[GriffinsRule]

Would it not be better to buy 320 new T-84 Oplot M to replace the older T-80UD?

Why would you want to replace T-80s before T-59 or T-69?

 

[iLION12345_1]

Would it not be better to buy 320 new T-84 Oplot M to replace the older T-80UD?

Would cost a lot more, that way you’re paying for the Hull, the engine, the gun and so on, things that are the same between both tanks, apart from many other subsystems. We are inducting VT-4 because Ukraine had issues with Oplot deliveries as well (not that VT-4 isn’t a better tank, because it is). It’s better to upgrade the ones we already have and extend their lifespan.

Why would you want to replace T-80s before T-59 or T-69?

No Type 59s left to replace, not in active service for a couple of years now. (Excluding a few on the western border with FC).
About 200 type 69s in service with army and FC both, some of which are only for training, like the ones in Quetta school of tactics.
As of April 2020 there were 3 regiments of Type 69 (so about 130 tanks, plus minus few for training) left in the army, of which one is known to be on the western side, in Baluchistan. keep in mind this is before AK-1 and VT-4 induction.
The incoming VT-4s are being used to equip regiments that previously had Al-Zarrars (which will either be sent to the west or to other regiments that have Type 69s I suppose.)
maybe AK-1 is going to be used to replace type 69 too, though I have heard they are being used to raise new regiments, someone more knowledgeable can confirm that.

There is a common misconception, especially one that Indians tend to throw around that the majority of our tank fleet is still Type 59s and 69s, when in reality there is none of the former and very few of the latter in service, since even by conservative estimates we have over 2000 MBTs Excluding Those two.

 

[Raja Porus]

As of April 2020 there were 3 regiments of Type 69 (so about 130 tanks

We did see them in a recent exercise and that too of Bahawalpur corps, perhaps they are only with some of the Inf divs, but I hope that your figures are correct.

 

[iLION12345_1]

We did see them in a recent exercise and that too of Bahawalpur corps, perhaps they are only with some of the Inf divs, but I hope that your figures are correct.

From last few exercises on ISPR, I believe one regiment in Sialkot, one in Lahore and maybe the ones in Quetta are separate and not part of a regiment (so means third regt in Bahawalpur), however I do believe these figures are correct, after all we wouldn’t be replacing AZs of 6 Div if we still had an urgency to replace these.
Many Regts have retired their Type 69 in the last few years, here in conversation with gryphon he too mentioned these same numbers for type 69, he mentioned around 170 total in army service. This was again before VT4/AK-1 induction, he did however mention that AK1 was being used to raise new regiments in the Bahawalpur-Okara and Pano-aqil areas.

As for type 59, if you’ve noticed they haven’t been seen in any exercises in the last few of years, there hasn’t even been new photos of them. They are all in reserve, if not been converted to AZ.

as I mentioned we easily have over 2000 MBTs in service excluding these two types, we don’t need many more considering we still have over 500 on order in the form of VT4 And AK-1 with 50 of each being added every year.

 

[GriffinsRule]

From last few exercises on ISPR, I believe one regiment in Sialkot, one in Lahore and maybe the ones in Quetta are separate and not part of a regiment (so means third regt in Bahawalpur), however I do believe these figures are correct, after all we wouldn’t be replacing AZs of 6 Div if we still had an urgency to replace these.
Many Regts have retired their Type 69 in the last few years, here in conversation with gryphon he too mentioned these same numbers for type 69, he mentioned around 170 total in army service. This was again before VT4/AK-1 induction, he did however mention that AK1 was being used to raise new regiments in the Bahawalpur-Okara and Pano-aqil areas.View attachment 744854
As for type 59, if you’ve noticed they haven’t been seen in any exercises in the last few of years, there hasn’t even been new photos of them. They are all in reserve, if not been converted to AZ.

as I mentioned we easily have over 2000 MBTs in service excluding these two types, we don’t need many more considering we still have over 500 on order in the form of VT4 And AK-1 with 50 of each being added every year.

I include Al-Zarrar in the T-59s as that is what they are really, with some cosmetic upgrades.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I include Al-Zarrar in the T-59s as that is what they are really, with some cosmetic upgrades.

Then I’m afraid you know nothing about them at all. You are a respected member, but that could not be further from the truth.

Al-zarrars gun and ammunition are modern, superior to any Indian tank currently in service, including the T90S, as they have obsolete ammo.
AZ fires the same Ammo as the AK.

Al-Zarrars TI sights are literally the same one used in AK And T90S, it’s FCS overall belongs to the same generation as AK and T90S, incl it’s MFDs for gunner and commander.
It falls behind in commanders sights though, so no hunter killer capability.

It has an upgraded engine, suspension, transmission, AC, LWR (don’t think any Indian tanks have those either), can be fitted with IBMS, has modern radios, assisted loading system, can fire ATGMs etc the list goes on.

The only thing I find to be unsatisfactory on it is the protection. It has composites on both turret and hull plus it has a good ERA package (same kind of ERA as AK). The issue is that due to weight limitations the ERA cannot be stacked as is it on AK which would improve its effectivenes a lot and the base armor can only be increased so much keeping in view the weight. That doesn’t make it a bad tank, rather it’s armor would still be adequate against anything but a T90S since Indian T72 tanks literally use BM17 projectiles from the 60s, while it’s ammo would go through Indian tanks like butter.
Other tanks are not the most common threat to tanks in a conventional war, it’s usually infantry anti-tank weapons, HEAT projectiles from RPGs, IEDs etc. no tank can really survive an ATGM without APS.

Keep in mind india operates close to 900 Stock T72s which are obsolete, if we have 800 AZs going against them then the AZ will come out on top every single time. It’s not even close to a Type 59 or even a T72.

However it has reached the end of its upgradeable life and will need to be retired as the 2030s start, judging by where the VT4s are going it seems the army already knows that. For now it’s more than enough for what we need to face.

 

[HRK]

However it has reached the end of its upgradeable life and will need to be retired as the 2030s start

Fan boy in me always wish these tanks to be converted as remotely operated tanks rather then getting retired ....

but is just a wish and we know not every wish come true .....

 

[iLION12345_1]

Fan boy in me always wish these tanks to be converted as remotely operated tanks rather then getting retired ....

but is just a wish and we know not every wish come true .....

That would be a very cool concept, maybe a small number or IFV/Tank hunters can be created from the platform too, like the Russian Terminator system on T72 chassis. But again, just wishes

 

[GriffinsRule]

Then I’m afraid you know nothing about them at all. You are a respected member, but that could not be further from the truth.

Al-zarrars gun and ammunition are modern, superior to any Indian tank currently in service, including the T90S, as they have obsolete ammo.
AZ fires the same Ammo as the AK.

Al-Zarrars TI sights are literally the same one used in AK And T90S, it’s FCS overall belongs to the same generation as AK and T90S, incl it’s MFDs for gunner and commander.
It falls behind in commanders sights though, so no hunter killer capability.

It has an upgraded engine, suspension, transmission, AC, LWR (don’t think any Indian tanks have those either), can be fitted with IBMS, has modern radios, assisted loading system, can fire ATGMs etc the list goes on.

The only thing I find to be unsatisfactory on it is the protection. It has composites on both turret and hull plus it has a good ERA package (same kind of ERA as AK). The issue is that due to weight limitations the ERA cannot be stacked as is it on AK which would improve its effectivenes a lot and the base armor can only be increased so much keeping in view the weight. That doesn’t make it a bad tank, rather it’s armor would still be adequate against anything but a T90S since Indian T72 tanks literally use BM17 projectiles from the 60s, while it’s ammo would go through Indian tanks like butter.
Other tanks are not the most common threat to tanks in a conventional war, it’s usually infantry anti-tank weapons, HEAT projectiles from RPGs, IEDs etc. no tank can really survive an ATGM without APS.

Keep in mind india operates close to 900 Stock T72s which are obsolete, if we have 800 AZs going against them then the AZ will come out on top every single time. It’s not even close to a Type 59 or even a T72.

However it has reached the end of its upgradeable life and will need to be retired as the 2030s start, judging by where the VT4s are going it seems the army already knows that. For now it’s more than enough for what we need to face.

I know all the things you mentioned. You can read about them on here and wikipedia and various other websites, but at its core, its a tank from the 1960s that has been upgraded to the extent it can be, yet it is obsolete on the modern battlefield in terms of protection, firepower and survivability. They are akin to PAF Mirages. Seem to fit the bill for now but their age is showing and they are not up to mark. More like a solution to the problem of not being able to replace the large fleet with more modern tanks. So yes, they will support the heavier tanks and make up the numbers but going back to the original post I replied to, I would not retire T-80s or T-85s before these ones.

 

[Raja Porus]

its a tank from the 1960s

But then Abrams and Leo are also from 70s and initially abrams used the same L7 gun as type59-II.

Seem to fit the bill for now but their age is showing and they are not up to mark.

If they hadn't been upto the mark then PA wouldn't have equipped its elite and most important 6th armd div with these tanks. Also AZs would have been replaced by AKs if the army felt that their striking corps is not upto the task. And remember we did face escalations with India at that time.
Also AZ has had more then 53 upgrades which are not cosmetic like North Korea's, so it is almost a new tank.

yet it is obsolete on the modern battlefield in terms of protection, firepower and survivability

No it isn't. @iLION12345_1 has explained it already. Its firepower is far better than most of the Indian tanks which is supplemented by the fact that tank ammunition used by PA is better then IA's. Again if PA thought that AZs don't have sufficient firepower to achieve the objectives assigned to 1corps then they would have certainly been replaced.
Another important thing is that we have to analyse the threats faced by PA by Indian armoured forces. Thus like AK, AZ might not be the best tank in the world but it is better then most in South Asia.

I would not retire T-80s or T-85s before these ones.

Neither would the army. Especially since T80UD is the most well protected tank in PA and Type-85II has recently got UG upgrades.

 

[PanzerKiel]

If they hadn't been upto the mark then PA wouldn't have equipped its elite and most important 6th armd div with these tanks.

There is an entirely different reasoning behind equipping our primary northern strike formation with older AZs instead of T80s or AKs.

 

[Raja Porus]

There is an entirely different reasoning behind equipping our primary northern strike formation with older AZs instead of T80s or AKs.

Terrain?
Also what I wanted to say was that if AZ wasn't a good tank then it would have been changed.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I know all the things you mentioned. You can read about them on here and wikipedia and various other websites, but at its core, its a tank from the 1960s that has been upgraded to the extent it can be, yet it is obsolete on the modern battlefield in terms of protection, firepower and survivability. They are akin to PAF Mirages. Seem to fit the bill for now but their age is showing and they are not up to mark. More like a solution to the problem of not being able to replace the large fleet with more modern tanks. So yes, they will support the heavier tanks and make up the numbers but going back to the original post I replied to, I would not retire T-80s or T-85s before these ones.

I feel you misunderstand what a modern battlefield is. Our modern battlefield is not the modern battlefield of a USA vs Russia conflict. We use what works for us, not only do we not have unlimited money, it would simply be unwise to use something so expensive, yet so good, that it’s overpowered for our needs. I understand that in the greater global image, these are nearing obsoletion, but If our enemy is still so far behind, then that money is better used elsewhere. I personally would not compare these to mirages simply because imo the mirages aren’t much better than whatever india uses, apart from maybe old Mig 21s, meanwhile AZ is better than most of what india uses. It’s definitely not obsolete in terms of firepower, and protection is not as good as it could be, but as you say yourself, it is a solution, the best one we can get. However your points are valid, and I too hope that as things improve for us, this need to make compromises changes.

But then Abrams and Leo are also from 70s and initially abrams used the same L7 gun as type59-II.

This is an important point to note, the difference here is that the abrams was designed with upgradability in mind, like the AK was, modularity was important, something that wasn’t present in type 59. Hence it can not be upgraded as much, but yes, that comparison can be made.