T-129 for Pakistan one step closer

[SSGcommandoPAK]

In what quantity would these helicopter be acquired? Considering Pakistan is purchasing Ah-1Z and is interested in in Chinese Z-10. Some hi-lo mix?

Also Mi-35

 

[Mustang06]

Is Mi-35 being inducted in large quantities?

 

[Arsalan]

I have seen z-10 flying two times and have spent 10 years seeing and being with helicopters.Z-10 is the quietest of the bunch.Don't know about RCS.
It must have been incorporating some tech given to us by US, during ubl raid.

Point remains, it is not a stealth design.

It may have a well designed main rotor to make it relatively less noisy, IR paints or RAM coating may have some effect on the radar reflections but still the features are not where near to categorize this is as stealthy platform. It is a fabricated terms but still there must be certain attributes and they must be present to some standard extent to fall in this category.

All this said the Z10 is an excellent platform and i personally feel it will be a better options compared to T129 provided the Chinese can do the little tweaks we asked them for after trails in Pakistan.

I still however look forward for your answer to the original post @ACE OF THE AIR

Well Z10 really don't have any stealth features
Perhaps you are talking about some heat suppression systems?

Also as i asked previous, what is that in AH1Z that makes it first tier and T129 and Z10 second tier? Can you please highlight those subsystems for all of us to understand this segregation you propose?
Plus can you suggest what makes you say there were any engine problems with the Z10s we were testing? AFAIK the issues we faced were not engine related but electronics and avionics related.

I will suggest you please answer all these points as i fear that you are posting stuff which is misguiding the people here. Please do clarify so i am sure i was wrong. I hope you understand that we cannot allow some one going to different threads posting false and pointless claims citing them as facts. This will do the forum no good. Your cooperation with this inquiry will be appreciated.

Is Mi-35 being inducted in large quantities?

Nops, VERY low. For Special forces in very limited numbers. 8-12 examples only.

 

[X.I.X]

LONG LIVE PAK-TURKIYE FRIENDSHIP

IKI DEVLET - BIR MILLET MASHALLAH!!!

 

[tarrar]

Mi28 is RUSSIAN Gunship who is still closest allay of India compared to Pakistan.
Why don't you use common sense that what what can happen with Mi28.....?
Russian will provide us sub standard gunship with string attached ....... why you want it in first place? Our relations are just in initial stages and we have yet to receive deliveries of Mi35 .......
And Z10 is back up plan, as final solution.
When all other options will collapse, Z10 doors will open for Pakistan ......

I disagree on your MI28 comment.

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

AH-1Z were are bought with CSF funding ....

Major U.S. Arms Sales and Grants to Pakistan Since 2001
Prepared by the Congressional Research Service for distribution to multiple congressional offices, May 4, 2015
​

Major U.S. arms sales and grants to Pakistan since 2001 have included numerous items useful for counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations, along with a number of “big ticket” platforms more suited to conventional warfare. In dollar value terms, the bulk of purchases have been made with Pakistani national funds, although U.S. grants have eclipsed these in recent years. The Pentagon reports total Foreign Military Sales agreements with Pakistan worth about $5.4 billion for FY2002-FY2014 (sales of F-16 combat aircraft and related equipment account for nearly half of this). Congress has appropriated about $3.6 billion in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) for Pakistan since 2001, more than two-thirds of which has been disbursed. These funds are used to purchase U.S. military equipment for longer-term modernization efforts. Pakistan also has been granted U.S. defense supplies as Excess Defense Articles (EDA). Cost include training and support.

Major post-2001 defense supplies provided, or soon to be provided, under FMF include:
! eight P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft and their refurbishment (valued at $474 million, four delivered, three of which were destroyed in a 2011 attack by Islamist militants);
! at least 5,750 military radio sets ($212 million);
! 2,007 TOW anti-armor missiles ($186 million);
! six AN/TPS-77 surveillance radars ($100 million);
! six C-130E Hercules transport aircraft and their refurbishment ($76 million); ! the Perry-class missile frigate USS McInerney, via special EDA authorization ($65 million for refurbishment; now the PNS Alamgir);
! 20 AH-1F Cobra attack helicopters via EDA ($48 million for refurbishment, 12 delivered); and
! 15 Scan Eagle reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicles ($30 million).

Supplies paid for with a mix of Pakistani national funds and FMF include:
! up to 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft (valued at $891 million, with $477 million of this in FMF; Pakistan has purchased 45 such kits, with all upgrades completed to date); and
! 115 M-109 self-propelled howitzers ($87 million, with $53 million in FMF).

Notable items paid or to be paid for entirely with Pakistani national funds include:
! 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft (valued at $1.43 billion);
! F-16 armaments including 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; 1,450 2,000-pound bombs; 500 JDAM Tail Kits for gravity bombs; and 1,600 Enhanced Paveway laser-guided kits, also for gravity bombs ($629 million); ! 100 Harpoon anti-ship missiles ($298 million);
! 500 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles ($95 million); and ! seven Phalanx Close-In Weapons System naval guns ($80 million).

Major articles transferred via EDA include:
! 14 F-16A/B Fighting Falcon combat aircraft;
! 59 T-37 Tweet military trainer jets; and
! 374 M113 armored personnel carriers.

Under Coalition Support Funds (in the Pentagon budget), Pakistan received 26 Bell 412EP utility helicopters, along with related parts and maintenance, valued at $235 million. Under Section 1206, Frontier Corps, and Pakistan Counterinsurgency Fund authorities, the United States has provided 4 Mi-17 multirole helicopters (another 6 were provided temporarily at no cost), 4 King Air 350 surveillance aircraft, 450 vehicles for the Frontier Corps, 20 Buffalo explosives detection and disposal vehicles, helicopter spare parts, explosives detectors, night vision devices, radios, body armor, helmets, first aid kits, litters, and other individual soldier equipment. Through International Military Education and Training and other programs, the United States has funded and provided training for more than 2,000 Pakistani military officers. In April 2015, the State Department approved a possible $952 million FMS deal with Pakistan for 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters and 1,000 Hellfire II missiles, along with helicopter engines, avionics, training, and support.

Sources: U.S. Departments of Defense and State

Contact: K. Alan Kronstadt, Specialist in South Asian Affairs, 7-5415


While the report doesn't unequivocally state the source of funds for the AZs i'm claiming it under CSF based on fungibility. Insert economics of it'll be easier to use CSF rather than Pakistani budgets, made in rupees...

And read this:
http://comptroller.defense.gov/Port...aintenance/O_M_VOL_1_PART_2/DSCA_OCO_OP-5.pdf

 

[Secret Service]

Is Mi-35 being inducted in large quantities?

maybe after test and trials in different conditions.

 

[Mustang06]

maybe after test and trials in different conditions.

I wanted to in what quantity would T-129's be inducted if selected considering AH-1z have been approved for sale and PA is also testing Z-10's?

 

[muhammadali233]

I wanted to in what quantity would T-129's be inducted if selected considering AH-1z have been approved for sale and PA is also testing Z-10's?

Pakistan operates a total of 55 Ah-1s which it needs to retire,15Ah-1z are already ordered which makes way for 40 aircraft,you can expect around 30ish.
Tho PAA wants to have a huge arsenal of Attack helis to safe guard cpec,durrand line etc.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

What I remember is that PAA was impressed by the Z-10 stealth features. Still a lot of improvement is required if PAA does go ahead. These improvement are to have a new engine and FEDEC and some other.

PAA would continue to use Zulu as a high tier platform where as Z-10's and ATAK as strike and rapid deployment platforms.

Mi-35 is for a specialized role hence only 1-2 sqd. would be added.

This leads to an interesting prospect... What if Pakistan is able to procure a western engine that can be used on ATAK, Z-10 and Z-9? The Italian might be interested...

T-129 is also higher tier copter.. its a NATO standard Western designed and equipped aircraft belonging to a well established pedigree of gunships (A-129) .. thinking of it anything less than Zulu is ill informed because I dont know what trimmed down version of Super Cobras we will get.
its a given that it wont be like the ones used by American Marines or their close Western Allies.

T-129 is too good to be true and I hope our corrupt decision makers don't piss off and discourage our prospective Turkish suppliers.

Yep, Probably referring to the reports of using RAM and Anti IR paint.

Deep down I am inclined towards Z-10 because I've seen it fly just a few meters above my head. I was in my room when I heard it and I knew those propellers don't belong to any chopper in service with the military. Believe me it is just as sexy as it looks in those pictures. No, I take that back. It is more awesome than that .. It is bloody huge.

The Turks should arrange a flypast over my terrace.

sorry to say Sex is least of the concerns when it comes to combat usage of a copter and T-129 beats it hands down

by the way .. Z-10 has been used in waziristan and there are no good news to share. otherwise we wont have been wasting time of our Turkish friends

 

[HAIDER]

It seems T129 is on its way. Pakistan is going to sign two major deals with Turkey in next few days. Suspecting one deal could be T129.

 

[HRK]

While the report doesn't unequivocally state the source of funds for the AZs i'm claiming it under CSF based on fungibility. Insert economics of it'll be easier to use CSF rather than Pakistani budgets, made in rupees...​

And read this:
http://comptroller.defense.gov/Port...aintenance/O_M_VOL_1_PART_2/DSCA_OCO_OP-5.pdf

plz don't beat about the bush .... the claim which you are making is bogus as having no documentary evidence ....

AH-1Z was notified under FOREIGN MILITARY SALES (Click here: FMS) program not under FOREIGN MILITARY FUNDING PROGRAM (Click here: FMF ) therefore you are advised before to make any baseless assumption always check the relevant information .... plz note there is no separate notification/ approval for funding was issued for AH-1Z purchase

http://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/pakistan_15-05.pdf

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

plz don't beat about the bush .... the claim which you are making is bogus as having no documentary evidence ....

Your News Release itself doesn't claim the entity paying for the helicopters. Details of who is paying for them haven't been released publicly yet... and no one has asked.. yet...

What i'm trying to say is American Dollars, which Pakistan wouldn't have had, are being used to buy these AZs.

Count them as being paid for by the CSF, FMF, or IMF loans, it's still money Ishaq Dar doesn't have.

Don't confuse a sale of military equipment with the FMS. All sales of military equipment go through the FMS which is approval for the sale of said equipment. All military sales made by America go through this. Whether it's for Israel or Saudi Arabia, even UAE's Block 60s, to the UAE, go through this.

FMF are loans or grants, politically given, to finance any FMS.


EDIT: I corrected my original post.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Well Z10 really don't have any stealth features

It is not classed as stealth helicopter... Still it has many features that reduce its radar signature as compared to its size. This can further improve with Stealth Paint and more composites.

Perhaps you are talking about some heat suppression systems?

Heat suppression system plays two important roles.
1) Low heat signature reduces the heat seeking missile to home on.
2) It also reduces the IR to pick up the target for a lock on.

What I was referring to in my earlier post is the ability of Z-10 with the quite engines to sneak behind enemy lines without being heard from a long distance. However the engine is still under powered to effectively perform in Hot and High environments.

Also as i asked previous, what is that in AH1Z that makes it first tier and T129 and Z10 second tier?

T-129 ATAK is designed as a force multiplier hence it requires a multi tier environment.
Z-10 is designed for battlefield interdiction. However it still lacks the firepower because it is still in its early days.

AH-1 is a mature platform and has evolved to the Zulu which is a complete multi-role platform. Over years of development improvements have increased its Air Frame designed life to 10,000 flight hours. Combine this with the armament and you get the high end solution.

The AH-1 has a lower foot print than the AH-64 hence the US marines opted for it as it suited the kind of operation they were doing. Looking at these requirements many other countries opted for AH-1's as it gave them the best solution for there armed forces. AH-64 was added as a force multiplayer and high-end in varies armed forces of the world.

What exactly would PAA induct still unclear but here are the common scenario.
T-129 in numbers as force projection.
AH-1Z in low numbers used for specialized roles (high value targets). or in Close support for Mi-35.
Z-10 can be developed to provide similar role performed by the AH-64 but it would take time.

IMO Pakistan Army is looking towards the T-129 because it is going to develop at a faster pace and would evolve into a true rival to the AH-1Z in a few years. If Turkey is able to develop 100% of T-129 with domestic products then we could see unrestricted exports and a major rival for the AH-1's which would be replaced by many countries.

Can you please highlight those subsystems for all of us to understand this segregation you propose?

AH-1Z is fitted with infrared suppression system which covers engine exhausts, laser and radar warning systems, and radar jammer. It also has smart countermeasures dispenser with missile warning device. Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30 TSS Hawkeye EO/IR fire control system, the Thales TopOwl Helmet Mounted Sight and Display System, the AN/ARC-210 Digital Communication System, and the Raytheon AN/APX-100 Identification Friend-or-Foe (IFF) transponder.

The primary navigation system is the CN-1689(V)2/ASN Embedded GPS/INS supported by the AN/ARN-153(V) TACAN System and DF-301E VHF/UHF Direction Finder.

There are systems that are comparative to the above mentioned but would they be available to Pakistan is a question. Even if they are available which platform would be used by Pakistan has to be seen. Z-10 seems that it has enough space to develop in the future and rival the AH-64 but would the manufacturers of those comparative system allow them to be integrated.

Plus can you suggest what makes you say there were any engine problems with the Z10s we were testing? AFAIK the issues we faced were not engine related but electronics and avionics related.

Sir, Z-10's have been tested and flown for some time by the PAA in various environments. The engine though is good but still needs improvements to operate in Pakistan's North. There is some doubt that the current engine are prone to ice formulation at high altitude.
Electronics and avionics issue were there and some other subsystems were being looked at.

 

[HRK]

My dear do you have any idea what you are posting ..... or what you want to post ....???

Your News Release itself doesn't claim the entity paying for the helicopters. Details of who is paying for them haven't been released publicly yet... and no one has asked.. yet...

So does it qualify you to make an assumption that CSF funds were used for the purchase of AH-1Z .... ???

What i'm trying to say is American Dollars, which Pakistan wouldn't have had, are being used to buy these AZs.

Its obvious USA does not accept PKR .... plz don't post such illogical argument

Count them as being paid for by the CSF, FMF, or IMF loans, it's still money Ishaq Dar doesn't have.

CSF & IMF loans have all to gather different economic dynamics .... whats your the point here .... ???

BTW these two are part of Pakistan's national Coffer .... what difference does it make to America ....??

And for your kind information CSF is our own money which spend as per operational needs from our own defence budget & then get the REIMBURSEMENT which most of the time take TWO year previously there was a time when reimbursement took THREE years .... read about it

& for FMF .... Approval from Congress is required can you post any such FUNDING approval for AH-1Z sales to PAKISTAN .... ??

Don't confuse a sale of military equipment with the FMS. All sales of military equipment go through the FMS which is approval for the sale of said equipment. All military sales made by America go through this. Whether it's for Israel or Saudi Arabia, even UAE's Block 60s, to the UAE, go through this.

FMF are loans or grants, politically given, to finance any FMS.

Again is there any FMF approval for AH-1Z related sales to Pakistan .... ??

regardless of that with the inability of Pakistan to be able to bring forth the funds necessary for the F-16s, it's fair to say that the AZs are being financed through the CSF, FMF, or Military Aid.

Again this gem of yours .... what should one make out of it .... ???

literally I am just amazed with the height of ignorance in these two lines .... you have zilch knowledge about the subject & commenting as expert

DO have any idea what the word 'BUDGET' mean .... ??

BTW can you plz post any document or link of news article which can claim that THIS TIME IT WAS PAKISTAN WHO ASKED USA SALE F-16 .... ???

plz go & check it was your president who offered F-16 in his meeting with Pakistani PM who was on his visit to USA upon the invitation of you President .... this time Pakistan Air Force have different priority therefore her resources are committed to HOME GROWN SOLUTION otherwise arranging some additional +400 $ million was not an issue PAF had already committed 250 million for that purchase ....