Survey on Caliphate in Pakistan

[Mabs]

@MBQ,

Pal, please direct me to a single post in this thread where anyone effectively and comprehensively explained what Caliphate means in the 21st century and how it will be implemented. All of you have great zeal for the Caliphate and its admirable. My only issue is that if you are gona support something so vehemently, at least take out the time to educate yourself about it. When people speak without having sufficient knowledge, they not only confuse others but themselves as well.

I encourage you to find any conceptual flaws in my argument and set me straight.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

@MBQ,

Pal, please direct me to a single post in this thread where anyone effectively and comprehensively explained what Caliphate means in the 21st century and how it will be implemented. All of you have great zeal for the Caliphate and its admirable. My only issue is that if you are gona support something so vehemently, at least take out the time to educate yourself about it. When people speak without having sufficient knowledge, they not only confuse others but themselves as well.

I encourage you to find any conceptual flaws in my argument and set me straight.

and I encourage you to have patience and not start accusing others of idiocy without knowing their arguments...

rest assured... I m quite educated about the Caliphate... perhaps more than most others on this forum... and most certainly your drivel here does not count as an educated opinion about what the Caliphate is...

 

[Solomon2]

Caliphs... at least in the Sunni tradition are not inspired by God... I have read what Abdul Hameed Han said and it is clearly a refusal...

A conditional refusal. And when conditions changed - when the Arabs fought against the Caliph rather than for him and the Empire fragmented as a result - the refusal was stripped away and all that remained was the promise.

He even prohibited the delegate from ever trying to meet him again on the issue with their bribe offers...

There was no need for another meeting, was there?

As for the coming Caliphate... Everyone knows what that means regarding Israel...

Do I? The Zionists were perfectly willing to live with the Caliph as their suzerain.

"Who can challenge the rights of the Jews in Palestine? Good Lord, historically it is really your country." -Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi, mayor of Jerusalem, 1899.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

A conditional refusal. And when conditions changed - when the Arabs fought against the Caliph rather than for him and the Empire fragmented as a result - the refusal was stripped away and all that remained was the promise.

There was no need for another meeting, was there?

Do I? The Zionists were perfectly willing to live with the Caliph as their suzerain.

"Who can challenge the rights of the Jews in Palestine? Good Lord, historically it is really your country." -Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi, mayor of Jerusalem, 1899.

The Zionists were perfectly willing to live with the Caliph as their suzerain??

Do you understand what Zionism means?? This has to be the strangest statement I have ever come across...

They demanded their own country Solomon2... that was what was refused... Muslims have no problems with Jews living in their lands... the problem arises when Jews want to implement Zionism in any part of this land (which is what they eventually did)...

 

[Mabs]

and I encourage you to have patience and not start accusing others of idiocy without knowing their arguments...

rest assured... I m quite educated about the Caliphate... perhaps more than most others on this forum... and most certainly your drivel here does not count as an educated opinion about what the Caliphate is...

Why don't you educate us then and tell us what Caliphate is really about?

Also, my drivel is the consensual opinion of all the people who are considered to be experts on the topic of Caliphate. It would be much more helpful if you could just point out the inaccuracies in my argument rather than being generic.

 

[HAIDER]

Man a present day people call barbers....khalifa jiiiiiiiiiii

 

[Solomon2]

The Zionists were perfectly willing to live with the Caliph as their suzerain?? Do you understand what Zionism means?? This has to be the strangest statement I have ever come across...

The Zionists would have been satisfied with their own province under the vilayet system. The statehood thing became a priority only after WWI.

Muslims have no problems with Jews living in their lands... the problem arises when Jews want to implement Zionism in any part of this land (which is what they eventually did)...

Arab leaders had little problem with Jews in the cities (as long as Jews were a minority) but objected strongly to Jewish purchase and settlement of land in the countryside. Arab Ottoman officials wanted the Jews to remain scattered in small communities throughout the Empire. The Turks were more flexible. Apparently these two Caliphs foresaw that in an Arab-dominated Middle East the position of the Jews would be untenable and they would need their own state.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

@MBQ,

Pal, please direct me to a single post in this thread where anyone effectively and comprehensively explained what Caliphate means in the 21st century and how it will be implemented. All of you have great zeal for the Caliphate and its admirable. My only issue is that if you are gona support something so vehemently, at least take out the time to educate yourself about it. When people speak without having sufficient knowledge, they not only confuse others but themselves as well.

I encourage you to find any conceptual flaws in my argument and set me straight.

Are you atheist? Thats like saying what Islam means in 21st century.

Spare some time and do a research.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

The Zionists would have been satisfied with their own province under the vilayet system. The statehood thing became a priority only after WWI.

Arab leaders had little problem with Jews in the cities (as long as Jews were a minority) but objected strongly to Jewish purchase and settlement of land in the countryside. Arab Ottoman officials wanted the Jews to remain scattered in small communities throughout the Empire. The Turks were more flexible. Apparently these two Caliphs foresaw that in an Arab-dominated Middle East the position of the Jews would be untenable and they would need their own state.

What you are saying is very very interesting...

I dont see a problem with a Jewish majority province in Palestine under the vilayat system EVEN in the future Caliphate... Do you?

The only problem comes from Israel... Even though their Kennest Ministers may be calling for the new Caliphate today... The Zionists incharge will not relinquish their power without a fight... and boy what a fight they are going to get (I truly wish if they became sensible and chose not to fight but then this it seems will remain my wish)...

I will maintain that Abdul Hameed Han refused to consider the Zionist proposal... I would be interested to see your source of this opinion... Do you have any reference??? particularly about living as Vilayat Dolat ul Otmaniya... I ll be honest with you... I never heard of this before... I am absolutely sure that this was not the request from Abdul Hameed... rather the request was for an independent state... perhaps later it was thought about as a vilayet but then Turkey's position was weakened tremendously by that time and Balfour declared a Zionist state when the British were busy butchering the Muslim land...

So a reference would be great...

 

[Mutee]

MBT great thread my friend!!

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

For the record I ll post what Abdul Hameed said on the issue...

...

In 1901, the Jewish banker Mizray Qrasow and two other influential Jewish leaders came to visit Sultan Abdul Hameed offering to pay all of the debts incurred by the Uthmani Khilafah, assist in building the state navy and provide a loan of 35 Million Golden Liras without interest for state funds in exchange for allowing the Jews to visit Palestine to visit their holy sites and to allow the building of settlements near Jerusalem.

Abdul Hameed refused to even meet them. He told his assistant, "Tell those impolite Jews that the debts of the Ottoman state are not a shame, France has debts and that doesn't effect it. Jerusalem became a part of the Islamic land when Omar Bin Alkhattab took the city and I am not going to carry the historical shame of selling the holy lands to the Jews and betraying the responsibility and trust of my people. May the Jews keep their money, the Ottoman's will not hide in castles built with the money of the enemies of Islam." He also told them to leave and never come back to meet him again.

Later in the same year, the founder of the Zionist movement, Theodor Herzl, visited Istanbul and tried to meet Abdul Hameed. Abdul Hameed refused to meet him and he told his Head of the Ministers Council to "Advise Dr. Herzl not to take any further steps in his project. I cannot give away a handful of the soil of this land for it is not my own, it is for the entire Islamic Nation. The Islamic Nation that fought Jihad for the sake of this land and they have watered it with their blood. The Jews may keep their money and millions. If the Islamic Khilafah State is one day destroyed then they will be able to take Palestine without a price! But while I am alive, I would rather push a sword into my body than see the land of Palestine cut and given away from the Islamic State. This is something that will not be; I will not start cutting our bodies while we are alive."

....

the above statement shows that the demand was for an independent state which was refused quite blatantly by the noble Caliph...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

It would make sense... if it were just a vilayat then we as Muslims have absolutely no problem to accomodate the Jews in our State... the more the better... we need the best brains on our side anyway...

also and perhaps it should be added... that if it were a question of just living as citizens of the Islamic State then Turkey had thousands of Jews living in the heart of Turkey even at that time...

 

[nightcrawler]

We have plenty of money and electricity my dear judas priest song... Allah rewards those who stand for justice... Khilafah is the ultimate model of justice and this is why its important that we as Pakistanis carry this call... I would ve been careful stating this a few years ago but there are now strong indicators that Allah swt is going to bless us with this honor...

The hell with Arab states and Iran... Osama Bin Laden's vision for Caliphate may sound the same but what we have been seeing since 2001 is hardly the model of mercy and justice that Muslims aspire to... Saudi Arabia is not an ideal country for this because of extreme poverty not just in their people but also in their minds... 11 March could be an interesting day though... Lets see what happens...

Really we don't have the money nor do we have resources. Ponder over it & you will see we let the Chinese do the drilling & take out precious minerals/metals for us. We don't have such knowledge so as to create a domestic dam & you are talking about a rather more difficult project than building a dam ~~Khilafah. For Khilfah to occur we need support of various Muslim countries & that my dear willnt come & they will back-stab you for their NATIONALISM

Can I live without electricity? Without money? With difficulty, with adaptation, yes. Can I live knowing I'm living in sin and risk dying in sin? Can I live when I'm incomplete and my soul goes hungry? Again, yes. But its a miserable life. Take hope out and a living man is as good as dead.

...& I haven't done any sin living in Pakistan & my sister in America haven't done anything either. Your claim about miserable life ...look at Karachi streets the beggars out their live miserable life & Libyans in the streets of Jeddah

 

[nirreich]

It would make sense... if it were just a vilayat then we as Muslims have absolutely no problem to accomodate the Jews in our State... the more the better... we need the best brains on our side anyway...

also and perhaps it should be added... that if it were a question of just living as citizens of the Islamic State then Turkey had thousands of Jews living in the heart of Turkey even at that time...

Thank you for your generous suggestion, but we prefer to have our own independent state in our historic homeland. Jews are entitled for an independent state like every other Muslim nation.

 

[Ahmad]

Thank you for your generous suggestion, but we prefer to have our own independent state in our historic homeland. Jews are entitled for an independent state like every other Muslim nation.

palestinians too.