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Surgical or no Surgical strike? a difficult way to agreed upon.

@Post Colonnial

Bro I dont think that they are going to be sostupid to again have the so called launch pads 1-2 kms of LOC.

Even if they take them 20 kms dep, we wont be able to do surgical strike.

Then what will we do ?
In case a terrorist act takes place ?
How do we respond then ?
 
And thats most credible source u could post ? lolz

http://www.defencenews.org/2016/10/pakistan-not-getting-support-at-un-over.html

United Nations: Hours after Pakistan's UN representative met Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon over the issue of surgical strikes in Azad Kashmir, India on Friday said Islamabad has not found any resonance in the world body.

India's Permanent Representative to the UN Ambassador Syed Akbaruddin further dismissed the remark made by Ban Ki-moon's spokesperson that UN military observers have not directly witnessed any firing across the Line of Control (LoC).

UN chief's spokesperson Stephane Dujarric had earlier said that the UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) "has not directly observed any firing across the LoC related to the latest incidents", a reference to the surgical strikes conducted by India on September 29 targeting terror launch pads in Azad Kashmir.

Akbaruddin told reporters at the Indian Permanent Mission here yesterday that the facts on the ground do not change whether somebody has "observed" it or not.

"I have nothing to say because what (Dujarric) said was 'directly observed'. It's a call that they have to take. I cannot place myself in their boots and directly observe something," the Indian envoy said when asked to comment on Dujarric's remarks.

Akbaruddin said that the "facts on the ground do not change whether somebody acknowledges or not. Facts are facts, we presented the facts and that's where we stand."

India on Thursday carried out surgical strikes on seven terror launch pads across the LoC with the Army inflicting "significant casualties" on terrorists preparing to infiltrate from Azad Kashmir.

When pressed at the daily press briefing to explain how UNMOGIP can say it did not observe any firing even as India said it has conducted the surgical strikes, Dujarric repeated that UNMOGIP has not "directly observed" any of the firing.

"They are obviously aware of the reports of these presumed violations and are talking to the relevant concerned authorities," he had said.

Akbaruddin said while Pakistan has reached out to the UN Chief and the 15-nation Council over the issues of the surgical strike and Kashmir, it's call for intervention by the world body has not found any resonance as there was no further discussion on the matter.

"Yesterday there was some action. You are also aware of the reaction," Akbaruddin said referring to Pakistan's envoy Maleeha Lodhi meeting New Zealand's UN Ambassador Gerard van Bohemen, president of the Council for the month of September, and raising in the UNSC the issue of the action by India.

"Yesterday the Pakistan ambassador did approach New Zealand. What they didn't tell you after that was what happened. Did anyone raise anything after what was explained to in the UN Security Council. The answer that I know of is that there was no further discussion of this (surgical strike and Kashmir matter)," Akbaruddin said.

He said Pakistan had raised the issues through the New Zealand ambassador in "informal consultations" of the Council.

"Was there a resonance. I didn't hear that, nor did anybody else in those informal consultations. We are a responsible state. It is not our intention to aggravate the situation.”

"However, as a responsible state, we will not tolerate any impunity. We will not be indifferent to territory being used to kill innocent citizens of our country," Akbaruddin said, adding that India hopes and expects "support from Pakistan also in that endeavor".

"Ultimately they are committed to a bilateral understanding on this."

The Indian envoy also added that Pakistan had raised the Kashmir issue in the General Assembly but asked how many nations "supported" it.

"By my count there were none," he said adding that there is "no resonance" among UN member states for Pakistan's claims on Kashmir.

"At the high-level General Debate, there was a specific and long Pakistani submission (on Kashmir). I did not hear any resonance of that among any of the member states who took the floor. Ultimately 193 of them took the floor. There was no resonance. If you find anything contrary, I'm willing to listen," Akbaruddin said.

"Our approach is that the response (surgical strike) we undertook yesterday...was a measured, proportionate, counter-terrorist strike. It was reflective of our desire to stop a clear and imminent threat. Our objectives have been met and that effort has since ended," he said.

He reiterated that India's effort as a "responsible state" is to respond proportionately and in a measured manner and achieve its objectives.

"In that case, we consider our objectives fulfilled. What spin somebody puts, whether somebody has seen it or not seen it, is not a germane to the issue. That it was undertaken, that we feel that it achieved our objective is important for us as a country," he said.

On whether India has been approached by the office of the Secretary General or the Security Council regarding de-escalation of the situation, Akbaruddin said, "I did not hear any response to the submission (by Pakistan) yesterday."

He said as a normal diplomatic practice, if there are any requests to him or other Indian diplomats on any matter, "it is our job as diplomats to respond to them."

"In the UN we have a very expansive agenda. We have an agenda that deals with peace and security and also climate change, sustainable development goals. It also deals with having a culture of peace integrating and working together with others.”

"We are focused on that expansive and extensive agenda. We are not a one agenda state," he said.

The surgical strike by India came just days after the attack by Pakistan-based terror outfit JeM on the Indian Army camp in Uri in Kashmir that killed 19 jawans.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had said that the attackers will not go "unpunished" and the sacrifice of the jawans will not go in vain.

http://www.defencenews.org/2016/10/pakistan-not-getting-support-at-un-over.html

Indian Army Cheif

 
When there is no Surgical Strike, then why did Pakistan ran to U.N and what for.

Its funny that Pakistan now in Delimea -- If they except, they have to respond against India, which they don't have the capability and then they have to except that those terrorists were supported by PA for the cross border terrorism.

If they reject, they loose the option to do retalliate.

Kissiai Billi Khamba hi Nochegi

Pakistan ran to UN because Indian DGMO sat with foreign ministry person to read out the speech he was given by the ministry .. then Indian ministry called 25 countries envoys to brief them ... they internationalised this after losing 14 soldiers one captured alive and three checkposts wiped off... Now after giving a befitting response to India on military level Pakistan won't leave any stone unturned to expose Indian nefarious designs to divert the attention from HR violations in Kashmir .. FYI ISPR today arranged a visit of local and international media to LoC and shows them those areas which India claimed to have attacked .. !!
 
So What do you call the Gentlemen, who drove Russian away and Held Kashmir under their control in 1990s

I don't know what you are trying to say? I mean a majority of the world had backed the 'Mujahideen' through the 80's in Afghanistan and then Pakistan had backed Kashmiri fighters starting 1989 until some time into early 2000's. But the most critical part of understanding between Indian PMs and Musharraf was that Pakistani Army, on LoC, had decided to not allow the artillery cover for infiltration into Kashmir. That allowed India to the vital space to build all kinds of defense mechanism along LoC.

Perhaps now Pakistanis are realizing that Musharraf gave away too much for too little in return.
 
Perhaps now Pakistanis are realizing that Musharraf gave away too much for too little in return.
You are right but we can't turn the clock back.

BTW we are now realizing the greatest folly of Pundit Nehru who took the Kashmir Issue to UN instead of following the advice of then Home Minister, Sardar Patel.

We are also realizing how Indira let Bhutto off the hook in Shimla by returning 90000 POWs when Kashmir could have been settled so easily.

alas nobody can turn the clock back :(
 
:hitwall:
There are idiots and then there are thundering idiots. If you ask the people of Junagarh, they will chase out the former Nawab's descendants with their footwear. So what will the former leader claim? Is it that you hope that the UN and the International Court of Justice will take a part of India and put it under an independent ruler? Have you thought through the matter, and do you realise how much the UN had to face as the result of a recommendation, an advisory? And you think they will go one step further?


There are trolls ..then there are mega trolls...daddy of trolls. The ruler of Junagarh State signed instrument of accession to Pakistan. The state was taken over by force of India on religious majority grounds. Compare this to Kashmir and you will see double standard at it's fullest.

Even the acession of Junagarh signed accession letter still exists which is not even the case with Kashmir supposed accession letter. Pakistan has every right to raise the unfinished issue of Junagarh.

Go read the book on Princely State of Junagarh: Dead or Alive by SM Pasha.This is because the princely state which is geographically dead in India, is politically alive in Pakistan, where at Junagarh House; the Junagarh state flag flies on its mast till today.

The Pakistan government still recognizes Nawab Mohmmad Jahngir Khanji, the grandson of the last Nawab Mohmmad Mahabat Khanji as the present Nawab of Junagarh in supposed India and installed him with all pomp as the eleventh Nawab of a State in exile on October 9, 1991. It has an official website http://www.junagadhstate.org/home.html

The Government of India at that time was strongly in favor of a plebiscite to be held in Junagarh, so that it can lay its legal claim over the state, second, the case between Pakistan and India, a prop of the accession of Junagarh to Pakistan, is still pending before the United Nations for disposal and is not formally withdrawn as in the case of Hyderabad state.

Legally Junagarh is still with Pakistan....illegally occupied by India...
.
 
@Post Colonnial

Bro I dont think that they are going to be sostupid to again have the so called launch pads 1-2 kms of LOC.

Even if they take them 20 kms dep, we wont be able to do surgical strike.

Then what will we do ?
In case a terrorist act takes place ?
How do we respond then ?

it is not 'in case'. Pakistanis will keep trying different types of bothering India. They cannot compete in business, science, development, education and ethics. So the next best thing is to try to bother India with whatever means. Such is the nature of impotent jealousy.

India has to keep finding new answers for the new nuisances that Pakistan will come up with
 
There are trolls ..then there are mega trolls...daddy of trolls. The ruler of Junagarh State signed instrument of accession to Pakistan. The state was taken over by force of India on religious majority grounds. Compare this to Kashmir and you will see double standard at it's fullest.

I see that I was wrong about thundering idiots; the situation has gone beyond that.

There was no force used in Junagadh. Not a single Indian soldier stepped on Junagadh soil UNTIL Master Bhutto handed over the administration. Check your facts. The soldiers went to Babri Nagarwadia and Mangrol.

Even the acession of Junagarh signed accession letter still exists which is not even the case with Kashmir supposed accession letter. Pakistan has every right to raise the unfinished issue of Junagarh.

Sure. Raise it. Need any help? We have some pretty low cost satellite launch vehicles; any help you want is available.

Go read the book on Princely State of Junagarh: Dead or Alive by SM Pasha.This is because the princely state which is geographically dead in India, is politically alive in Pakistan, where at Junagarh House; the Junagarh state flag flies on its mast till today.

Well, there you are then. What's the problem?

The Pakistan government still recognizes Nawab Mohmmad Jahngir Khanji, the grandson of the last Nawab Mohmmad Mahabat Khanji as the present Nawab of Junagarh in supposed India and installed him with all pomp as the eleventh Nawab of a State in exile on October 9, 1991. It has an official website http://www.junagadhstate.org/home.html

The dogs? No mention of the dogs? Philistines.

The Government of India at that time was strongly in favor of a plebiscite to be held in Junagarh, so that it can lay its legal claim over the state, second, the case between Pakistan and India, a prop of the accession of Junagarh to Pakistan, is still pending before the United Nations for disposal and is not formally withdrawn as in the case of Hyderabad state.

Legally Junagarh is still with Pakistan....illegally occupied by India...
.

I can see that the UN has a lot of decision making to do. Good luck. Any time you want, ask for the chicken soup; it'll comfort the Nawab sahib.

What a fool I am, mistaking a galactic idiot for a mere thundering idiot.
 
Merciless this!

Mr AsUn: Go read the book on Princely State of Junagarh: Dead or Alive by SM Pasha.This is because the princely state which is geographically dead in India, is politically alive in Pakistan, where at Junagarh House; the Junagarh state flag flies on its mast tll today.

Mr:JoSh : Well, there you are then. What's the problem?:closed:

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/surgical...y-to-agreed-upon.452889/page-12#ixzz4Lsua3KUg
 
I see that I was wrong about thundering idiots; the situation has gone beyond that.

There was no force used in Junagadh. Not a single Indian soldier stepped on Junagadh soil UNTIL Master Bhutto handed over the administration. Check your facts. The soldiers went to Babri Nagarwadia and Mangrol.

No violence...lol....Mega troll....u went personal first, mega troll:

Here is a little taste bite for ur head to get history facts in correct order: Sardar Patel ordered the annexation of Junagarh's three principalities by FORCE.

Over 12 lakh Junagadhi Muslims, residing in Karachi area have awaken the conscience of the country on a wound that has been drooling for the past 65 years with not a single swab of dressing. It is common misconception that Junagadh being a Hindu majority area was rightfully to be acceded to India in comparison to the case of Kashmir, where the Muslims are in majority, and a Freedom movement since 1946 was popular locally, therefore the Instrument of Accession should have been used in compliance to their aspirations.

However the historical fact is that when India forcefully invaded Junagadh on the 9th of November, 1947, Pakistan agreed to discuss a plebiscite, subject to the withdrawal of the Indian troops, India rejected Pakistan’s proposal, this plebiscite was conducted in February 1948 and was not internationally monitored, pointing to India’s lack of confidence in the will of the people of Junagadh for accession to India.

Muslim rulers had ruled Junagadh from 1472, starting with Muhammad Bedaga to when after the Mughal rulers the Yousaf Zai pathans who laid foundation of Babi Nawabs had ruled this state to 1948. The fact is that on the event of the Partition, Nawab Mahabat Khanji III acceded to Pakistan on the 15th of September, with the popular consent of his people. India as usual could not swallow the thought of an inch of its ‘Dharti Mata’ going out of its clutches. On the 25th of September India announced the formation of the unlawful “Aarzee Hukumat”, with Shri Saamar Das Gandhi, a relative of Gandhi Sab as President, who was not even a resident of Junagarh. The Government of India took over by force Sardargadh a neighboring town of Bantva and then it captured Bantva on the Eid-ul-Azha Day whilst the Muslims were peacefully praying in the mosques. Finally Junagadh was occupied on the 9th of November 1947 at 6 PM by the Indian Army led by Brigadier Gurdial Singh.

The age-old Hindu craving for conspiracy led them to allurw the Dewan of Junagadh, Sir ShahNawaz Bhutto, to invite the Government of India to intervene and he wrote a letter to the Regional Commissioner of Saurashtra in the Government of India to this effect. As expected the government of India rejected the protests of Pakistan and accepted the invitation of the Dewan to intervene.

India has been the forceful occupier and a tyrant imperialist in all possibilities that arose; in Kashmir when the popular will of the majority was with Pakistan, India conspired and invaded; in the case of Hyderabad, when it decided to remain independent of both India and Pakistan, in again invaded by its infamous Operation Polo; in Sikkim again the Indian army occupied Sikkim, in 1975, before holding a referendum that resulted in a 97% vote in favor of India to incorporate it as it as one of its usual states; India has harbored tense relations with Bhutan for a long time and Bhutan fears its direct interference, this is what India has done and is still doing in the neighborhood, destroying all chances of peace.

On 9th of Novemeber, 2012 once again the people of Junagadh, who had to flee Indian aggression and migrate to Pakistan, have reminded the world community and the Government of Pakistan, that mere passage of time does not change the fact that their homeland was forcibly snatched away from them and is in a state of unlawful occupation. They have demanded that India should be put to trial in the international courts of justice, and the decision should be according to the dictate of international law and justice, as applies to the Instrument of Accession.

Today, in a rally attended by more than a 100 Junagadhi organizations, held in Karachi, the Junagadhi people have reminded the people of Pakistan, that even to this day, after 65 years of Indian occupation the people of Junagadh are with Pakistan at heart, and that Pakistan has not been fair with Junagadh by deserting its case and letting India enjoy its foray without any resistance.
Source

Sure. Raise it. Need any help? We have some pretty low cost satellite launch vehicles; any help you want is available.

Pakistan lay claim of Junagarh, still in UN part of Pakistan. Infact As evidenced by the Atlas of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, the government of Pakistan has never accepted India’s annexation of the territory, which did proceed in a highly irregular manner. (In fact, as reported to me by by Munis Faruqui, “the Pakistan government still issues a very limited number of car license plates emblazoned with the name “Junagadh,

low cost satellite launch vehicles

Junagarh had an area of about 3,336 sq. miles and was bounded on the south by the Arabian sea, Pakistan and had sixteen ports of which the main one was Veraval.

If you are making fetish of the argument of geographical contiguity. Even then, this is sufficiently provided by Junagarh sea with several ports, which can keep connection with Pakistan.

Well, there you are then. What's the problem?

No problem, politically alive, so as the geographical claim is still with Pakistan.... Nawab of Junagarh lives in exile in Pakistan. Issue is the double standard of Kashmir as compared to Junagarh. It wont be long that that the accession papers to Pakistan of Junagarh becomes a legally abiding principle to India to give independence to either Junagarh or Kashmir.

The accession of Junagadh to Pakistan means till now its part of Pakistan...and Pakistan can start a separatist movement from illegal occupation of Junagarh...a centre point for India's disposal into further states.

The dogs? No mention of the dogs? Philistines.

ofcourse the dogs, maintained by Hindu slaves as part of the deal....Many Muslims when coming to Pakistan and that included the Nawab of Junagarh, his dogs, and his Dewan all returned safe.

can see that the UN has a lot of decision making to do. Good luck. Any time you want, ask for the chicken soup; it'll comfort the Nawab sahib.

What a fool I am, mistaking a galactic idiot for a mere thundering idiot.

Thing is, Pakistan does not commit atrocities on the population of Junagdh does it? No, it does not (I should think so).

But India Kills, tortures and rapes the people of Kashmir and does it only to the Muslim Majority population and not the Hindu minority. How can India claim Kashmir as its own when it does such things? India should not even control or call one inch of Kashmir as its own. But it does then things like the Mumbai Terror attacks happen and the Indian media misses the point of why it happened....and it will continue to wreak havoc, bigger, as Kashmirs have started to join militancy in numbers.
 


lol, you got a read @Joe Shearer who first replied on this topic from no where: https://defence.pk/threads/surgical...ay-to-agreed-upon.452889/page-10#post-8758541.

Am just saying Junagarh still in UN is still part of Pakistan, accession papers never made it part of India, means legally India still has no right, just gotta raise it.

anyway back to the topic.
 
From ‘India Ko Naesto Naboot Kar Denge’ to ‘Don’t want tensions with India’: How Pakistan Defence Minister Khwaja Asif changed his tone in 24 hours
I got this from some other member.
Just for fun.:D
Quote ..Hum aisa jawab denge jo vo soch bhee nahee saktein
Actual meaning....We will remain in denial mode as it not expected from any NUCKLEEER POWAAA

Quote ..Never ever seen Para SF operating like this
Actual Meaning ...We don't have Para SF or any unit of such capability , how can we know about their operating capability

Q..We have all the systems in place in LOC , wouldnt be possible by Indians to infiltrate
AM ...Since our economy is in tatters and everyone is involved in corruption we have junk equipment in LOC which works at will , Also we love to take tight nap after dinner

Q..We are battle hardened
AM ..Since birth we are denial mode , we deny that we are even born , So now we have become DENIAL HARDENED
 

The silly fellow's own document gives the game away. Neither Mangrol nor Babri Nagarwadia agreed to the accession to Pakistan; Junagadh was the suzerain in their cases, but they also had the right of accession. State forces had moved in. It was here that the IA turned up, NOT in Junagadh.

And as sillikin's document goes on to say, Indian troops moved into Junagadh only AFTER the Dewan handed over the administration.

Just to remind ourselves, the Dewan Sahib was the great-grandfather of Master Bilal Zardari. So much for the prospects of Junagadh turning up as a UN case once the PPP returns, which inevitably it will.

Further the strained reference to Junagadh's contiguity is ingenuous. Contiguity meant contiguity by land; even by land, Junagadh had no seaport of its own. A very very strained and laboured construction, which Mountbatten had had no hesitation in striking down at the time.

Finally, the vast majority of the population was Hindu and voted overwhelmingly for India in the plebiscite.
 
So, India publicly said that it has conducted a surgical strike across the LOC and targeted terrorist launch pads (India made it clear that the strikes were against terrorist and not against PA). Also India stated that India didn’t violate anything as the strikes were in Pakistan held Kashmir which India claims and not across the international border. India briefed the P5 and envoys of 22 countries about the strikes. There has been zero escalation and zero international repercussions or condemnation until now.

Now I was just wondering that with a $100 billion modernization program in the coming decade the conventional disparity between the Indian and Pakistani armed forces will only grow, especially in the case of the two air forces. With procurement of predator drones, S400 and Rafael etc some believe that the disparity would be like that of the two Navies now. So, what if in future India says it will strike the terrorist training camps or launch pads from air across LOC periodically and is more than happy to fight and give a bloody nose to PA due to it’s massive conventional superiority.

What are the options for Pakistan/ISI then?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ikes-Syed-Akbaruddin/articleshow/54622876.cms

It is less of a matter of doubt and more of a facts. We are not talking about a historic event which happened 200 years ago for which we need to thorise and be doubtful if it happened.

India has till to-date ZERO EVIDENCE - and Pakistan on the other hand has counter evidence - aerial footage shown, international media has already been to places which India claimed it attacked. Nothing - factually Pakistan's position vindicated.

Now lets look why Indians still want to believe it?
  • We are told by Indian Government
  • We are told by DGMO (unrepresented event). No evidences provided, no questions taken.
  • Indian media has conflicting details, which change from channel to channel and day to day
  • Still no pictorial, video or audio evidence
Its not a crime to be an Indian, sure but it is a crime to be an Indian and be a dumb Indian. Do you want to see picture of Indian Hero who went across LoC and punished "terrorists" responsible for trouble in India?
 
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