Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions

[sancho]

Russia open for equal work share on FGFA - The Hindu

Russian officials said that Russia is open for equal work share but stated that “Russia has problems with the Indian demand. If India has the ability to provide certain design knowhow and technologies we are open for equal work. But this may not be so as seen with the case of Light Combat Program (LCA) and the aircraft under development is a Fifth Generation program.”

Ouch, that hurts (even if true)! They basically saying, you can't contribute more, which is why hyping the workshare issue at this point doesn't really make sense and they are right about that. We have to increase the workshare over the time of the project and not let ourself blind by the idea that we are an equal partner. The project is 50:50 based, the workshare simply can't be at that level as long as we don't improve ourselfs.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

i dont see any optimism here... honestly, if we could not Mr putin about India's concerns in this project then hould not expect any miracles. it is better to but T50 and MKIsed it rather than sitting and doing nothing. As such as of today, we are at logjam and ultimately delaying everything. about 50:50 workshare, lets not fool ourselves. May 15 years down the line 50:50 is possible, as of today it is not. so on a staggered basis yes its possible. but then if we are at logjam bcz we want it as of today itself then we are fooling nobody.

BTW any news of IAF so called concerns and close inspection of T50 protos? did we get access or its still the same? did our any team visit and get access? last time i remember reading HAL team twice went and came back empty handed when they wanted close inspection and asked query regarding one small fire

 

[sancho]

i dont see any optimism here... honestly, if we could not Mr putin about India's concerns in this project then hould not expect any miracles. it is better to but T50 and MKIsed it rather than sitting and doing nothing. As such as of today, we are at logjam and ultimately delaying everything. about 50:50 workshare, lets not fool ourselves. May 15 years down the line 50:50 is possible, as of today it is not. so on a staggered basis yes its possible. but then if we are at logjam bcz we want it as of today itself then we are fooling nobody.

BTW any news of IAF so called concerns and close inspection of T50 protos? did we get access or its still the same? did our any team visit and get access? last time i remember reading HAL team twice went and came back empty handed when they wanted close inspection and asked query regarding one small fire

The MKI deal, gave us a customized "Russian" fighter, while FGFA will be an Indo-Russian fighter! That's a crucial difference, since it gives us far more freedom to implement our requirements if not at the begining, then over the years. I can only point to the Brahmos project again, which also is an Indo-Russian project and even if in the first version our contribution is minor and the missile is largly based on the Russian original, we now implement our requirements in modifying and applying to various platforms. More over, we already plan the next re-design (Brahmos M), which will include far bigger Indian contribution to design and development, with the long term aim of the hypersonic Brahmos, as a complete new development. The idea is to constantly increase our capabilities, to increase our contribution to the joint project and the same is the aim on FGFA or MTA as well!

Also check this older post:

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 142

Wrt IAF concerns, they were dealt several years ago and not only when Ajay Shukla came out with his sensationalized report and one of the results was the decision that India will go only for fighters with the NG Type 30 engine and that still stands. What has changed in the meantime, was if India directly gets twin seaters, which increased the development costs, or if Russia and India go for an upgraded single seat version (single seat config already developed, joined order increases number and therefor should reduce costs or at least keep it under control).
Wrt to the fire of the T50 prototype:

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 139

 

[PARIKRAMA]

The MKI deal, gave us a customized "Russian" fighter, while FGFA will be an Indo-Russian fighter! That's a crucial difference, since it gives us far more freedom to implement our requirements if not at the begining, then over the years. I can only point to the Brahmos project again, which also is an Indo-Russian project and even if in the first version our contribution is minor and the missile is largly based on the Russian original, we now implement our requirements in modifying and applying to various platforms. More over, we already plan the next re-design (Brahmos M), which will include far bigger Indian contribution to design and development, with the long term aim of the hypersonic Brahmos, as a complete new development. The idea is to constantly increase our capabilities, to increase our contribution to the joint project and the same is the aim on FGFA or MTA as well!

Also check this older post:

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 142

Wrt IAF concerns, they were dealt several years ago and not only when Ajay Shukla came out with his sensationalized report and one of the results was the decision that India will go only for fighters with the NG Type 30 engine and that still stands. What has changed in the meantime, was if India directly gets twin seaters, which increased the development costs, or if Russia and India go for an upgraded single seat version (single seat config already developed, joined order increases number and therefor should reduce costs or at least keep it under control).
Wrt to the fire of the T50 prototype:

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 139

its true it gives us a chance to increase our capabilities.. but as of today where we are standing? we were suppose to sign the agreement and release 5.5Bn.. the numbers quoted was 127 single type first and now again as you rightly pointed discussion on 2 seater is being considered.. but then again does not all this push the timeframe for inducting it into IAF back? secondly again, a co developement of say 2 seater variant means the entire timeline will be pushed back further as Russians are clear about having just single seater as of now. Also, fitment of 2 seater does not necessarily means changing the aerodynamic body of the aircraft. The former means complete development (from T50 single seater to 2 seater FGFA with airframe codeveloped by India and tested then)and thus the name FGFA serves the idea of co development, the later means more of customisation as the craft capability/airframe all would be already tested by already flying prototypes. so the earlier 2016-2019-all such timelines would be in question. the later choice is economical and less time consuming, the former the tough path of developing the very best which takes time...

about fire, the article said the same what you posted - Causes of fire aircraft source refused to name, referring to the secret nature of the information. i meant to ask did they share the cause to indian counterparts who had asked them the details or they still cite since we have not signed the agreement hence we cant have access to the privileged info. the reports said India did nt get access- neither to causes or to prototypes..

 

[Prechko]

 

[sancho]

its true it gives us a chance to increase our capabilities.. but as of today where we are standing?

That depends on what the recent negotioations were up to? If the new MoD wants to basically re-negotiate everything again, just to get a bigger workshare for show off reasons, even if it's realistically not possible with our industry, it will take longer. If the just tried to seal the last negotiated deal, which aimed on a jointly upgraded single seat version for cost reasons, things could be done as the last reports suggested, with production of FGFA to start around 2020.

Also, fitment of 2 seater does not necessarily means changing the aerodynamic body of the aircraft.

Not completely, but the cockpit section needs too be re-designed, the fuel tanks partly re-positioned and things like that and this design work would be done by HAL and accounted to our workshare, just as the Brazilians are now included in the development of the twin seater Gripen F, since the Swedes only go for the single seater.

i meant to ask did they share the cause to indian counterparts who had asked them the details or they still cite since we have not signed the agreement hence we cant have access to the privileged info. the reports said India did nt get access- neither to causes or to prototypes..

Well that's hard to know, since our officials are very tight-lipped when it comes to passing such infos, that's why many Indian media reports are either based on unnamed sources or simply on speculations. However one has to
distinguish here! They surely have asked the Russians for the cause of the fire and I doubt the Russians will make a big secret out of it in front of IAF officials at least, but we don't have access to the current T50 prototypes, since they are specifically only meant for Russian forces and their requirements. India is not involved in the Pak Fa development, but a 50% partner of the FGFA development, theirfor our access and involvement is limited to that development parts.

 

[he-man]

pakfa t-50 7th frame(for static tests)
courtesy jo akasura,key forums.

 

[Dillinger]

View attachment 179450 View attachment 179451

pakfa t-50 7th frame(for static tests)
courtesy jo akasura,key forums.

The aft end looks faceted. The key word being "looks".

 

[he-man]

The aft end looks faceted. The key word being "looks".

Yes looks like the engine coverings are finally better than those on mki,su-35 or initial pakfa.
Rest of the changes will be seen in t-50 8 th sp which should come out soon enough and some design changes are expected.

 

[monitor]

Amidst speculation of Russian stealth program lagging behind that of China's, a 6th T-50 PAK FA made debut at Zhukovsky test airbase. It was trasported to Zhukovsky airbase with the help of a Russian Antonov An-124 Ruslan transport aircraft.

 

[sancho]

The aft end looks faceted. The key word being "looks".

Not sure about that (at least from these early pics), but they used new materials for the coverings and not just implemented the old engines including the old coverings which could be distinguished by the black painting. It now seems to be fully covered till the nozzles, wonder what other changes can be seen?

 

[DrSomnath999]

the cockpit behind part looks really flat
plus i wonder the rear side looks little enlarged may be due it's covering

CHEERS

 

[he-man]

the cockpit behind part looks really flat
plus i wonder the rear side looks little enlarged may be due it's covering

The problem is ducts and underbelly.............
Not to mention the production quality issues vs chinese and americans.

Mainly because it was being hand crafted before and not as mechanized as the western/chinese fighters.Hopefully that issue will be addressed.

 

[conworldus]

Is there a picture of the PAK FA with weapon bay open? I really want to see its internal payload capacity. No photoshop please.

 

[DrSomnath999]

solly

even jo asakura from key pub forum cant give you that pic forget about us

becoz they havenot revealed their weapons bay yet

CHEERS