Submarine War Tactics

[shehbazi2001]

In a book of PN history, perhaps called, SENTINELS OF THE SEA, I read war mission and in that they mentioned that the submarine left "FALSE TRACKS"........I want to understand that if a submarine is going in one direction, how can it leave tracks in an another direction.........naval experts please.....

 

[shehbazi2001]

and why not learn about DOGFIGHT between two submarines.........i am damn sure that we pakistanis know very very little about naval warfare........

Basically I am an aviation enthusiat but still its not bad to learn about Navy....

For beginners, I would strongly recommend a movie called THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER....to get a start on SUBMARINES DOGFIGHT...........

I must mention here that underwater navigation is totally instrumental, no land marks, no horizon.........u depend on ur instruments........and when u are near to any of the pole, but especially the North Pole....the compasses too dont work......

The starting point here can be to learn the operation of SONARs.......active and passive both........some naval professional or enthusiast give us a start and then we shall push ahead.......

 

[shehbazi2001]

I would be interesting to know that how the Pakistan Navy deals with the SOSUS system of USA........it was a top-secret underwater surveillance system against submarines, especially russian submarines...........SOSUS network covered almost all the important areas of the world..........now that SOSUS has been declassified, I am sure a new more complex secret underwater surveillance may have been commissioned.....

and its clear that propeller-driven submarines are no more stealthy.........why not PN include the requirement of a propeller-less propulsion system for its new submarines?.......underwater, noise is the most dangerous thing.........

Underwater, no radar works......its SONAR that is the underwater-cousin of the radar.

 

[shehbazi2001]

According to my study till now, I think that Fight between two submarines underwater is the only fight now that employ neither MISSILES.......nor guns..........only Torpedoes.........if really it is so, then it means no new weapons has come to use since Second World War......or even earlier, although the Torpedo technology has improved a lot.

 

[niaz]

What I understand from the Naval Magazines available in the shops is that Hunter Killer Submarines dont dog fight. It is always an ambush. If you can detect the other submarine before she detects you, you simply wait and let her come within range, then Bingo.

 

[Sam Dhanraj]

In a book of PN history, perhaps called, SENTINELS OF THE SEA, I read war mission and in that they mentioned that the submarine left "FALSE TRACKS"........I want to understand that if a submarine is going in one direction, how can it leave tracks in an another direction.........naval experts please.....

I am no Naval Expert, but while i was reading info on Akula's tactics and defence, I came across this...

Known countermeasures are the standard gas-producing decoy units, a holdover from the German Pillenwaffer, sonar jamming, and an ingenious acoustic decoy commonly referred to as the nixie. The nixie is a small torpedo that emulates the sound signature of the parent sub. Once launched, the nixie veers from the submarine’s track at three knots. The emissions coming from the nixie obscures the actual noise generated by the creeping submarine. While the tracking submarine is deceived into tracking and launching on a decoy, the Akula may silently alter course and counterattack. At the very least, a nixie will force the NATO submarine to track multiple targets, uncertain which is the Akula.

More on Nixie- AN/SLQ-25 Nixie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[UnitedPak]

I have seen a few documentaries where submarines passing by dont even notice each other. Its very dark down there and you would see all the crew holding their breath and being quiet.

Apparently its a huge mistake to make noise since the water amplifies the sound waves and broadcasts them all over.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Its very strange that subs did not note each other......and the crew need not be silent....the noise crew make inside is not dangerous......its the noise coming from the hull vibrations and propeller that is dangerous.......and the sound travels faster in the water than in the air.........

Certain soviet subs (perhaps kilo class) were termed as "Black Holes" due to their extremely low acoustic signature.

Btw, some US subs in Second World War even carried radars on their top to detect maritime patrol aircrafts when being on surface........But now I don't see any radar on the top of a submarine? I read somewhere about installation of short-range SAMs in the vertical fin of Russian subs......the crew must need some kind of warning radar for that SAM.....

The old subs needed to come to surface to use their diesel engines and charge the batteries........once underwater, they used their batteries.........

Now the subs have nuclear power, and other conventional subs have AIP (Air Independant Propulsion) systems installed....for longer duration......

Continuing with the thread, after some discussion, I can see the importance of decoys even in underwater warfare........

 

[Blackpearl]

The best Sub marine movie, i have found is "Crimson Tide".

I think, best defence of a submarine against surveillance aircarft is to dive underwater. thats why i donot understand the idea of having SAMs on board. As far as radars are concerned, they may not be in a fixed installation configuration, as radar dish itself hinder water flow over the surface. It may happen that, if sub has to remain on surface, portable radar is mounted.

Again, in hostile waters, why should sub has to surface, when it still can charge its batteries using snorkel.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Thanks Blackwater, the movie was really a good one.

Once more we see how the men of conscience make decisions, they don't blindly follow orders.......in comparison to this what about the order "Freeze Tikka!"

The fight with akula was interesting wrt to tactics employed by Executive Officer in which he fired 4 torpedoes, in pairs of 2, with a certain delay between them. When the akula countered the first torpedoes, it was easy prey for the second pair.

But the operation of sonar is well-explained in The Hunt for Red October....in which we see that if a submarine opens the torpedo doors, the other submarine's crew immediately come to know it through sonars.......and they can react accordingly.

I found some types of submarines a bit confusing.....like the Hunter-Killer submarines and Attack submarines.....are they the same thing? or different.....the other types are clear like BOOMERs, they are those that carry ballistic missiles......

For radar onboard a submarine, its reality......there are/were Radar Picket Submarines that carried huge electronically scanned radar in their sails.......like USS Triton....google+wiki it for a detailed article.....

There were even Transport submarines....we dont know if they exist even now. These were the transport submarines that made secret transport missions between Germany and Japan in the 2nd World War......

 

[Blackpearl]

I found some types of submarines a bit confusing.....like the Hunter-Killer submarines and Attack submarines.....are they the same thing? or different.....the other types are clear like BOOMERs, they are those that carry ballistic missiles......

I think both are one and the same thing

There were even Transport submarines....we dont know if they exist even now. These were the transport submarines that made secret transport missions between Germany and Japan in the 2nd World War......

Nowadays, i think, there are submarines to transport special forces trrops (like SEALs), from deep waters to off shore / shallow waters. Yet they are not the dedicated transport submarines, simply an extar feature in a Hunter Killer sub.

By the way, i have a questioin here, should a country like Pakistan, have a Diesel Electric or Nuc powered submarine.

 

[Jliu]

I think both are one and the same thing



Nowadays, i think, there are submarines to transport special forces trrops (like SEALs), from deep waters to off shore / shallow waters. Yet they are not the dedicated transport submarines, simply an extar feature in a Hunter Killer sub.

By the way, i have a questioin here, should a country like Pakistan, have a Diesel Electric or Nuc powered submarine.

Hunter Killer and Attack boats generally refer to SSNs.

A nation should have capabilities that reflect its strategic aims, be it on land, air or sea. Pakistan simply cannot afford SSNs using nuclear propulsion as it will require sustained R&D and resources to produce units that may be generationally obsolete similar to India's LCA Tejas and blow a hole in the PN naval budget-which of course is subject to competition from the Army and AF. In addition, Pakistan does not have a record in designing SSNs so the technology base will have to be built from scratch-while theoretically possible, as I have mentioned previously, such platforms may not meet the PN's requirements. Given Pakistan's requirement for submarines in the interdiction role conventionally powered SSKs with AIP already meet the PN's operational requirements so it would be wise to maximise the number of cheaper quality platforms being procured ie. TKMS U214 or DCNS Scorpene or Marlin to provide credible interdiction capability.

 

[shehbazi2001]

I recently read an article in Journal of Electronic Defence and it said that today's hunter-killer submarines have practically become "Hunter-Gatherers of Intelligence". It mentioned that the sails of the submarines contain masts for the SIGINT, ESM, COMINT.

Submarines also carry Radar Warning Receivers, sometimes the same aircraft RWRs modified for submarines. Modern submarines are said to be carrying UnderWater Unmanned Vehicles (UUVs) for the detection of mine-fields or communication relay or ELINT.

Does somebody know the capabilities of Agosta-90Bs regarding electronic warfare, especially the capability to locate the coastal and ship radars????? and whether our submarines have the night-vision systems installed in their periscopes (hopefully yes)???

Also the ordinary and Towed acoustic decoys and towed sonars are also indispensable nowadays. Towed sonar is required to see at six'o clock (from aviation, meaning behind) of a submarine. Directly behind the propeller, the submarine cant use its fixed sonar effectively. For this, towed sonar is a remedy.

Noise absorbing hulls are also being used and it would be nice to know whether Agosta-90Bs or the new candidate U214 use these technologies listed above???????


Link to the JED article,

http://www.harpoonhq.com/waypoint/articles/Article_042.pdf

 

[Jliu]

I recently read an article in Journal of Electronic Defence and it said that today's hunter-killer submarines have practically become "Hunter-Gatherers of Intelligence". It mentioned that the sails of the submarines contain masts for the SIGINT, ESM, COMINT.

Submarines also carry Radar Warning Receivers, sometimes the same aircraft RWRs modified for submarines. Modern submarines are said to be carrying UnderWater Unmanned Vehicles (UUVs) for the detection of mine-fields or communication relay or ELINT.

Does somebody know the capabilities of Agosta-90Bs regarding electronic warfare, especially the capability to locate the coastal and ship radars????? and whether our submarines have the night-vision systems installed in their periscopes (hopefully yes)???

Also the ordinary and Towed acoustic decoys and towed sonars are also indispensable nowadays. Towed sonar is required to see at six'o clock (from aviation, meaning behind) of a submarine. Directly behind the propeller, the submarine cant use its fixed sonar effectively. For this, towed sonar is a remedy.

Noise absorbing hulls are also being used and it would be nice to know whether Agosta-90Bs or the new candidate U214 use these technologies listed above???????


Link to the JED article,

http://www.harpoonhq.com/waypoint/articles/Article_042.pdf

Old Article

The Agostas likely use the ThomsonCSF DR2000U mast ESM as per the contract for the three 90Bs. EM collection range is about 20-30km in clutter allowing for collection of AD radar emissions and unencrypted A2G chatter. I would be genuinely surprised if night vision wasn't retrofitted if not already part of the contract.

New candidate U214? It has already been confirmed?

 

[Jliu]

In terms of strategic impact its (the Akula II) going to factor in the PN's calculus when procuring SSKs, forcing them to spend more for alternatives in the "upper tier" platforms (U214, S80, Marlin) as well as sensor fit to attempt to counter these Improv LA class equivalents.

Tactically it will give the IN a huge adv against SSKs because of IN TRADOC and the role SSNs play in that as hunter-killers in an integrated ASW focused BG. I've met the officer responsible for that at Malabar '07 and you are fortunate to have one of the most brilliant minds in undersea warfare (we found IN undersea warfare to be superb and had a "challenging time"). From open source IN writings and thesises by IN Naval War College, IN TRADOC for a PN-IN "dustup" is essentially derived from the Israeli concept of 'kill zones' where a networked system of ASW escorts, aerial assets and SSK+SSNs combine to destroy a submarine centric force with its escorts.

Basically kill zones are going to be set up around Karachi and Gwadar as I understand it in concentric zones where each inner zone is assigned a SSK and the outer zones are covered by a ASW escort screen. Aerial assets such as the MKI are going to launch AshMs to wipe out OPFOR surface escorts (not hard at present) and "flush out" OPFOR SSKs into the "grey zone" just outside the inner zones where the IN has the waters wired for sound and then into the waiting IN SSKs. Any 'leakers' will be obviously psychologically distressed (making a lot of noise) and will be dealt with by the screen of ASW escorts and SSNs using superior speed and sensors to hunt them down.

The objective of the PN is to break the 'kill zone'/blockade and hopefully bag a few SSKs and the SSN along the way.

Something for you to think about.