Strange death of Sufism!

[jamahir]

The best way is the combination of Wahhabism with their strict rule, and the stress of the important of niat ( intention ) in our life where in Quran it is said that whole of our life is Ibadah to Allah, not to Government, not to get respect from wife or siblings/ families

The whole point of my life is to enable myself to contribute to human political evolution, socio-economic evolution, technological evolution and my personal exploration of Nature's vast universe. Any other idea is immaterial to me and goes against rational human intellect. We are Muslims, told by the Quran's first first "Iqra" - to read, to gain knowledge, we should not act like Christian or Hindu Brahmin priests involved all day and all year round in prayer and every kind of ritual, dedicating the life to only worship of divinity and never looking at knowledge and the undeniable but unfortunately being denied presence of Nature. There was once the Islamic Golden Age and there is now especially the past 20 years of the Tableeghi. Such a sad change of circumstance.

 

[Indos]

The whole point of my life is to enable myself to contribute to human political evolution, socio-economic evolution, technological evolution and my personal exploration of Nature's vast universe. Any other idea is immaterial to me and goes against rational human intellect. We are Muslims, told by the Quran's first first "Iqra" - to read, to gain knowledge, we should not act like Christian or Hindu Brahmin priests involved all day and all year round in prayer and every kind of ritual, dedicating the life to only worship of divinity and never looking at knowledge and the undeniable but unfortunately being denied presence of Nature. There was one the Islamic Golden Age and there is now especially the past 20 years of the Tableeghi. Such a sad change of circumstance.

So it means your God is not Allah, since you dedicate your lives to that. No doubt in Islam it is told that it is Rahmat Allah ( Allah kindness/ blessing ) that create us to this live, including this universe that He made for us.

So if you are acting like a kind person who want to contribute to the society, the first thing you must do is to respond to Allah kindness first that has made you in perfect body, health, and many kind of foods and beverages that He has made to this Earth for human. Similar like if you are successful, it is your parent first ( and especially your mother ) that you will be prioritized to show gratitude to them that has raised you and give you education, and what Allah has done to you is much more than your own mother.

Who said we should do exessive ritual ? I am leaning toward mainstream Islam (Wahhabism) on ritual thing while leaning toward Sufism in term of niat ( intention cleaning ). In Islam we only need to do 5 times prayer in a day, which is something that is not difficult to do, and for me and other Muslim, it is a plessure to be able to pray to our God.

Doing business, learning technology, doing Research on many things, doing politics, working, marriage, raising kids, can also be intended for God, it depends on your niat (real intention )

 

[Rushd Alam]

Salafism can't be classified into a single school of thought due to the huge difference of opinion among Salafis and modern day Salafism is different from the original Salaf movement which is beautifully explained by our own Dr Yasir Qadhi. I view Salafism as an ideology that instills logical thinking which is great but as well as extreme pragmatism which is something I strongly disagree with. Extreme pragmatism breeds tyranny in us which is something that Mohammed Hijab, a prominent Salafi scholar from Britain accepts as well and the extreme pragmatism can also deviate a person from the path of logic. Despite my disagreements, I have nothing but immense respect for Mohammed Hijab and his work.

I also follow muhammad Hijabs lecturesand debates, dont think he is a scholar yet but a great representative of islam and his recent podcast with Jordan leterson is a must watch. This is what i was saying inutially, sufism cant answer questions that opponents would accuse islam in these modern tnot . Thus it is having a decline as was the topic of this discussion. No doubt there are still followers of sufism but the number is on decline. On question of which one is on right path then I am no seikh or mufti and not qualified to debate. Mysticism is not a cup of my tea and may allah guide me and everyone to the true path, as winning debate will not take me anywhere as Allah is the only judge and we all has to return to him.

 

[_NOBODY_]

I also follow muhammad Hijabs lecturesand debates, dont think he is a scholar yet but a great representative of islam and his recent podcast with Jordan leterson is a must watch. This is what i was saying inutially, sufism cant answer questions that opponents would accuse islam in these modern tnot . Thus it is having a decline as was the topic of this discussion. No doubt there are still followers of sufism but the number is on decline. On question of which one is on right path then I am no seikh or mufti and not qualified to debate. Mysticism is not a cup of my tea and may allah guide me and everyone to the true path, as winning debate will not take me anywhere as Allah is the only judge and we all has to return to him.

For the record Sufism is not a single school of thought, there are so many Sufi schools of thought with different philosophies and traditions.

 

[Destranator]

Why

Because it's both unIslamic and derogatory towards Islam.
Praying for a dead person regularly is perfectly fine but making his burial site a colourful temple/disco is not right neither is singing and screaming there or turning Zikr into a dance routine.

I have no problem with people singing, dancing or screaming - I just don't like Islam being dragged into it.

 

[Bengal71]

So it means your God is not Allah, since you dedicate your lives to that. No doubt in Islam it is told that it is Rahmat Allah ( Allah kindness/ blessing ) that create us to this live, including this universe that He made for us.

So if you are acting like a kind person who want to contribute to the society, the first thing you must do is to respond to Allah kindness first that has made you in perfect body, health, and many kind of foods and beverages that He has made to this Earth for human. Similar like if you are successful, it is your parent first ( and especially your mother ) that you will be prioritized to show gratitude to them that has raised you and give you education, and what Allah has done to you is much more than your own mother.

Who said we should do exessive ritual ? I am leaning toward mainstream Islam (Wahhabism) on ritual thing while leaning toward Sufism in term of niat ( intention cleaning ). In Islam we only need to do 5 times prayer in a day, which is something that is not difficult to do, and for me and other Muslim, it is a plessure to be able to pray to our God.

Doing business, learning technology, doing Research on many things, doing politics, working, marriage, raising kids, can also be intended for God, it depends on your niat (real intention )

Don't waste your time with this clown, he was saying in another thread that Muslim women should be able to marry non-Muslim men. He is spewing all kinds of nonsense out of his *** and claiming to be Muslim.

 

[Hyde]

In my opinion, Sufism was an excellent alternative for the Indian subcontinent as most people were Hindu and engaged in similar acts found in Sufism.

I think Sufism is not fully compatible with traditional Islam as Islam, in my opinion, is all about Allah, his oneness and belief in his last Prophet.

 

[Bengal71]

In my opinion, Sufism was an excellent alternative for the Indian subcontinent as most people were Hindu and engaged in similar acts found in Sufism.

I think Sufism is not fully compatible with traditional Islam as Islam, in my opinion, is all about Allah, his oneness and belief in his last Prophet.

The sufi ulama who arrived in the Indian subcontinent were not like the grave worshipers and dancers and singers. They were proper Muslims on the sunnah. The mazar and garve worship we see today is an innovation in the Indian subcontinent.

 

[313ghazi]

In my opinion, Sufism was an excellent alternative for the Indian subcontinent as most people were Hindu and engaged in similar acts found in Sufism.

I think Sufism is not fully compatible with traditional Islam as Islam, in my opinion, is all about Allah, his oneness and belief in his last Prophet.

Bro, if anyone attributes anything to sufism which is in contradiction to Quran and Sunnah it's not sufism. Simple as that.

Unfortunately we have quite a few examples of that nowadays. The "barelwi" ulema have to take responsibility for this. They have not spoken out against it enough. Like we see in our country today, "neutral" is not good enough. In the British Muslim community I see a growing voice speaking out against this.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

That's exactly what's wrong with extreme pragmatism that Salafism preaches. It completely destroys tolerance and deteriorate one's mental health which is not what our Islam was sent to mankind for.

I think you probably mean the opposite of pragmatism. As all sects, Salafism is ideological. I don't think they allow for the interpretion of the Quran in the context of other cultures and civilizations and for modern times, which is what we need.

Some of their objections regarding shirk beliefs and practices are valid while others aren't. We need to be careful not to confuse cultural practises which may symbolize respect and love as idolatry.

The main problem is Salafism's stated ideology is to follow the followers of the Prophet from the first three generations. This makes it practically early medieval Arab by culture, and it causes rage, extremism, and terrorism in modern times. Besides, it makes little sense to emulate a big group of people, most of whom are unknown, and who are no longer present among us.

We have the standard to follow. It is the Quran, which is called the Furqan, establishing the Criteria of Judgement with examples from the lives of our Prophet, other Prophets, and righteous people.

 

[Wergeland]

At the time of science,atheists and agnostics prefer religions like Hinduism and Buddhism or some aspects of those. They find Abrahamic religions "too strict". Imagine what they would think about Salafism and all those ultra-conservative Muslims.

The Bektashi Order flourished in Albania and other parts of the Balkans,until communism appeared.

Because atheists and agnostic often has no target to achieve something in next life. Most of them dont believe there is any other life than this life. So they try to maximize the pleasure in this life, which is understandable.

Hinduism is not a single religion, but rather a collection of rites, costumes, ideas from the subcontinent. It would be like a alien specie conqoured Europe and combined all culture in europe into a single word: Europeanism.

So if a atheist or agnostic tend to like hinduism, one must ask the question, what part of hinduism does he like and why? From my private experience, its usually cherrypicking of highest order. Which i think is a insincere practice.

IMO It also explains why existential anxiety and suicide is statistically higher among agnostics and atheist than theist. The human brain likes order, it dosent like a mosh mash of different systems that are incoherent, creates subconscious confusion and meaninglessness. The mind in such cases de-facto looses its direction. Pleasure will only alleveviate the symptoms of this condition temporary.

One of the consequences of atheism and agnosticism is this loss of inherent higher meaning of life, thus also loss of the reason to procreate. Which explains why the west forexample has extreme low birth-rates. Given enough time such a society will eventually self-dissolve into oblivion.

 

[jamahir]

So it means your God is not Allah, since you dedicate your lives to that. No doubt in Islam it is told that it is Rahmat Allah ( Allah kindness/ blessing ) that create us to this live, including this universe that He made for us.

I do not fall into the binary of believing in God or being anti-God. I believe in the undeniable supremacy of Nature. Can you tell me, Indos brother, that you can put prayer on your lips and dive your spaceship into a star like the Sun and expect to be alive ? Can you confirm that you can go jump into a volcano in your Indonesia with a prayer on the lips and expect to be alive ? We all must live within the bounds of Nature whatever our beliefs.

The universe is massively bigger than our current understanding, it has no beginning and who knows about its end ? There will be many other Nature's creations and self-evolutions in the universe. Please watch this superb presentation by Melody Sheep that wonders on what those can be and they will not believe in what you do :

Similar like if you are successful, it is your parent first ( and especially your mother ) that you will be prioritized to show gratitude to them that has raised you and give you education, and what Allah has done to you is much more than your own mother.

Daily I read out some interesting things from the newspaper and internet to my mother and we discuss or I make her aware on historic things and what is going on now. My knowledge and my success is mine and from those from who I learnt.

And please realize that blind cultural devotion to parents is illogical. India and Pakistan and Gaza have honor killings and in India and Pakistan and also in Japan there is parental pressure on children to get stupid marks in stupid school and college exams just so that the parents can brag of this fakery to their neighbors, relatives and colleagues. And then the parents push their children into a Capitalist society, a dog-eat-dog soceity. This is especially so in India and Pakistan. And just a few days ago in India a girl was murdered by her grandparents, her father and other males relatives because she was insistent on her human right to wear jeans. So I don't believe in this nonsense of unconditionally respecting parents. There should be respect and devotion to the children by the parents otherwise the parents are a waste and should be jailed. Children are not slaves of the parents.

Who said we should do exessive ritual ? I am leaning toward mainstream Islam (Wahhabism) on ritual thing while leaning toward Sufism in term of niat ( intention cleaning ). In Islam we only need to do 5 times prayer in a day, which is something that is not difficult to do, and for me and other Muslim, it is a plessure to be able to pray to our God.

I don't begrudge those who do five prayers daily privately and calmly but I dislike those who make it a business, a profession where they show to others how "pious" they are therefore how superior they are to others even though in reality they might be unjust, irrational and oppressive. Look at this fellow here @Bengal71 for example. In India lately, many Muslims make three hajjs every five years. Many otherwise poor people take loans or gather money over years to go to hajj when instead they should have invested that money in a business to improve their life and then gone on hajj. In fact one of my relatives who used to work in Saudia told me that he would do it every opportunity he got. Is this what Islam teaches us ? Hajj is to be done once in life with dignity, not this crass and obscene yearly ones to selfishly and narrowly collect some divine points for the hereafter while their current life and that of their society is ridiculous ! Do their acts and theif life seem rational to you ?

And the five time prayer comes from the Zarthusti religion - Zoroastrianism - and was adopted later by Muslims. The Quran from what I know and since you say you have read it speaks of three prayers. Please read of the origin of such ritual elements in this research document. Islam is not mostly about prayers and stuff but about enabling progressiveness, justice, rights and rationality. Let us bring it back that way from irrationals like Bengal71.

 

[Wergeland]

I do not fall into the binary of believing in God or being anti-God.

Wether you like it or not, Islams single most important tenet is the Belief in a single all powerful deity; Allah.

A muslim is defined as one who self-surrender his/her will to the will of the one God.

Its not upto me to decide if youre a muslim or not. That is between you and Al Malik al Quddus.

 

[313ghazi]

Going to shrines mantain mangna etc is our culture. Baqi Jo kisi na videos share ki hain yeh to molvi khud kartay hain

Brother, i have no problems with people going to shrines. When I am in Pakistan i visit shrines myself. Khari shareef for example. I was there 7 years ago last. There were some great things.

I saw people reciting Quran, people pray namaz there, i saw booksellers, i saw the langar (which is an amazing tradition), i saw the bazaar outside, all great things.

I also saw things that bothered me.

I saw a disabled boy with a chain around his neck being paraded around outside like an animal. His head was deformed and he was being used to beg.
I saw people arrive with decorative dholis. What do these represent? They look like idols to me. I was curious about their intentions.
I saw people coming in large groups playing drums, dancing, like they are going to a mela. This was around the time of their urs. Is this in keeping with the traditions of Islam?

I was also dissapointed by what I didn't see,

Where was the kalam of Mian Muhammad Baskh? Who was reciting his poetry? Where was the information about his life and his teachings? TThere was not a single word of English yet it's regularly visited by British Pakistani community. Where was the madarsa? What work was being done with the millions donated to educate people, or help people in extreme poverty - other than provide langar? The great people buried there dedicated their life to spreading the Deen, is that message still true for their custodians? I don't think it is.
I think these things are a problem and they need to be addressed.

These awliya were sent to the furthest reaches of the world to spread the Deen, not as magicians or miracle men. Today their custodians and their mureed have lost the essence of their work.

I do not fall into the binary of believing in God or being anti-God. I believe in the undeniable supremacy of Nature. Can you tell me, Indos brother, that you can put prayer on your lips and dive your spaceship into a star like the Sun and expect to be alive ? Can you confirm that you can go jump into a volcano in your Indonesia with a prayer on the lips and expect to be alive ? We all must live within the bounds of Nature whatever our beliefs.

If Allah wills it, it can happen. Ibrahim (AS) was burnt at the stake, yet Allah cooled the fire. Yunus (AS) survived in the belly of a whale. Easa (AS) was crucified, yet he is alive today. Muhammad (saws) split the moon into two. This is all mentioned in the holy Quran.

I was going to ask you a question, but i fear the answer you will give - so for your sake, i won't ask it.

 

[jamahir]

Wether you like it or not, Islams single most important tenet is the Belief in a single all powerful deity; Allah.

A muslim is defined as one who self-surrender his/her will to the will of the one God.

Its not upto me to decide if youre a muslim or not. That is between you and Al Malik al Quddus.

Let's say I am the evolution of a Muslim. And you can continue to believe that what I call the all-present all-powerful Nature you call that entity as Allah.