Strange death of Sufism!

[_Nabil_]

Yeah,check my thread. They claim a lot of things

The can claim whatever they want, Hinduism is well known, it not even a religion.

 

[Wergeland]

I think Salafism is closer to original Islam. But it is less interesting than traditional Sunni Islam (including Sufism).

Absolutely

So it will continue to grow in the foreseeable future, at the cost of Traditional Sunni Islam.

Agree.
We also have to remember that «Traditional» Sunni Islam has also evolved since the Caliphate days. I would say Sunni practices in 20th century probably is different from Sunni practices during the Umayad and Abbasi.

In many ways then Salafism is probably closer to Sunnism as it was practiced way back then.

The funny thing, though, is that (IMO) Islam wouldn't have spread so fast and so far had it been always Salafi-like. During the early days Hanafi flavor made it more palatable and more attractive for the non-Muslims. Later Sufism gave Islam it's soft power.. charismatic Sufi leaders were able to draw large number of followers and were able to immerse them in a spiritual setting that Salafism lacked. A chain of spiritual succession meant the new converts would feel empowered and go on to follow their Sufi master's example and spread Islam farther.

Want to add that Sufism played its role during a time when the Abbasid Caliphate probably reached its intellectual and wealth Zenith. When Baghdad was the most sprawling city on Earth. Although not entirely same, i like to compare Sufism with Western hippies. Think about it, hippies at core are western, but likes to be less traditional and draws in elements from non-western culture.

But do you know what Orthodoxy means?

The Wahabbis are like the American Protestants who abolished traditions and sacraments and instead focused only on the Bible and whatever else their Church founder told them.


I'm saying it because he said Salafism would convert people to Islam etc.

Have to kindly disgree here.
Christianity and islam has two very different histories, theological doctrines and practices.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Not Salafist Sheikhs shouting about "Pakistan kuffr State",calling for the pyramids to be destroyed and Wahabbis demolishing your prophet's house.

yeah some young Salafists were saying that, I saw it somewhere on SM
Pakistani community gave them a good beating afaik- good to see

 

[Wergeland]

Westerners like exotic things. For them these are exotic religions. It's like having a pet. You have some fun with it until your interest wanes.

The most peculiar about all that? Some of the western who are attracted to buddhism the most, are also people who are the most pleasure oriented. I mean look at upper class and hollywood like people. Its very strange because Shiddorto Gotama preached against seeking wordly pleasures.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Absolutely

Agree.
We also have to remember that «Traditional» Sunni Islam has also evolved since the Caliphate days. I would say Sunni practices in 20th century probably is different from Sunni practices during the Umayad and Abbasi.

In many ways then Salafism is probably closer to Sunnism as it was practiced way back then.



Want to add that Sufism played its role during a time when the Abbasid Caliphate probably reached its intellectual and wealth Zenith. When Baghdad was the most sprawling city on Earth. Although not entirely same, i like to compare Sufism with Western hippies. Think about it, hippies at core are western, but likes to be less traditional and draws in elements from non-western culture.



Have to kindly disgree here.
Christianity and islam has two very different histories, theological doctrines and practices.

out of every religion Islam is closest to Judaism

 

[Rushd Alam]

Salafis have only one thing correct - aqeeda. Aside from that everything they do say and practice is wrong. They destroy families. Cause divorces and generally make a family hell. They have hundreds of groups within salafism. And they are very elitist and look down at other. I know - I have family members who are salafis and they are totally heartless and claim to be Muslims. I can't judge as I am only a man but I know our Allah is kind loving merciful and he hates pride and arrogance.

Hey brother, sorry to hear about your experience but I have to reply here i do not understand what salafism can cause divorse, maybe you mixing up your personal experience with bigotry towards a group. I also cant relate your relatives showing of arrogance with following the Salaf, please do not judge anything by the followers and educate yourself what it is teaching and then can criticise them. If i say i saw 10 sufi followers drinking and commiting zena and shirk, does that make the whole sufi community kafir? No ryt?


Also as per my knowledge about islam let us not be the judge who is muslim and who is not, let Allah judge that.

Only if they say they are muslim but say our phophet (sm) not the last and final messenger and doubt Quran is not preserved, I will have no issue to call them out as kafir.

On following salafi way I have done my research and I am a person who will not just follow something that my forefathers have followed hope you have done the same as you will be questioned on the day of judgement and I believe answring I followed my forefathers may not be the best of the answers, as allah has given you the intelect and in this age it is so easy to Research on every thing or reach out to people who has elim.

May Allah guide us all and keep us away from any shirk as I have seen so much shirk happening around me without people understanding what they are doing. May Allah forgive us all and give us opportunity to study and understand quran and sunnah.

I think Salafism is closer to original Islam. But it is less interesting than traditional Sunni Islam (including Sufism).

Salafists are just trying to throw away everything that's been added to Islam since the Prophet's (pbuh) passing away. Basically return to a simpler version of Islam.

One of the reasons Islam won converts like wildfire in it's early expansionist days (even converting from within it's biggest enemies like Mongols) is because of it's simplicity. It's easy to follow, egalitarian, devoid of complicated rituals and offers direct connection to God minus the middlemen (unlike Christianity).

Salafism is also spreading like wildfire today, among Muslims, because of it's simplicity. All it's doing is asking for a return to the original Islam and abandon bid'ah. It doesn't add anything new, just returns focus to core Islam (in principle). This idea appeals to most Muslims, existing and converts, who are more into Islamic theology than the average oblivious Muslim. So it will continue to grow in the foreseeable future, at the cost of Traditional Sunni Islam.

The funny thing, though, is that (IMO) Islam wouldn't have spread so fast and so far had it been always Salafi-like. During the early days Hanafi flavor made it more palatable and more attractive for the non-Muslims. Later Sufism gave Islam it's soft power.. charismatic Sufi leaders were able to draw large number of followers and were able to immerse them in a spiritual setting that Salafism lacked. A chain of spiritual succession meant the new converts would feel empowered and go on to follow their Sufi master's example and spread Islam farther.

Islam, and religion in general, in the modern world has no room to expand like it did in the past. Which severely limits scope for Sufi Islam's growth the historical way. So here we are, with Salafism's unstoppable march winning the souls of curious non-denominational and traditional Sunni Muslims year round, while non-Muslims no longer flock to Sufi Islam. That's why it's dying.

Beautifully put, won't find a better explaination than this

 

[jupiter2007]

You think Deobandis are Sufis? Lol

Drobandis are Wahhabis and their father is Yazid and founder was Mohammad bin Abdul Wahhab Najdi.

Barelvi is not a sect but this name given by Wahhabis, they are popular with name Sufi out side of Sub continent, but in Sub continent Barelvi or Sunni.

Go back and read the books again. The problem is people don’t read and they come and argue. This is a propaganda of British. Read the history of British India.

No one practice true Sufism in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. I have been these countries and I only find Darga and grave worshiping. Peeri/muridi in Pakistan is a business. Just the doctor’s doesn’t become doctor automatically, peer son doesn’t become peer.
If you want to see Sufism, go to Sudan, some part of Somalia, Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Senegal and Gambia. Most of those who practice Sufism in these countries follow Shafi fiqh, Senegal and Gambia follow both Shafi and Maliki fiqh.

I know your level and I am sure if I ask you question about Aqeedah of Hanafi you will runaway.

 

[Foinikas]

yeah some young Salafists were saying that, I saw it somewhere on SM
Pakistani community gave them a good beating afaik- good to see

In Britain. I saw it on YouTube some years ago.

Have to kindly disgree here.
Christianity and islam has two very different histories, theological doctrines and practices.

I am talking about how certain Protestant heresies took Christianity and just deleted a lot of things or considered others as "idolatry" or whatever that thought. All these heresies were founded by people who thought they were "reforming" the Church to its "original form". Like Abdel Wahab wanted to do with Islam,if I'm not mistaken.

 

[SaadH]

I hope this doesn’t upset anyone.
Apologies upfront.

But I want to know why were the Wahabis allowed to destroy Sufism in South Asia and beyond.

Our forefathers and those who brought Islam to our shores were Sufis.

One of the most disgusting acts perpetrated under the last BNP government was the attack on Sufi shrines.

The Americans of course funded the jihadists and co-opted them to fight communism. Wahabis of course hate Sufis because they are enlightened and challenge backward thinking.

How can Sufism regain its primacy in South Asia and beat back the Wahabis?

Sufism remains the overwhelmingly dominant creed of South Asia...even though it introduced the vile takfiri practice to our shores...

It also has it's share of extremism and militancy...whereby they are the biggest peddlers and purveyors of grossly abusing the blasphemy laws to slander and pass a blood libel on anyone who disagrees with them...

 

[Wergeland]

In Britain. I saw it on YouTube some years ago.

I am talking about how certain Protestant heresies took Christianity and just deleted a lot of things or considered others as "idolatry" or whatever that thought. All these heresies were founded by people who thought they were "reforming" the Church to its "original form". Like Abdel Wahab wanted to do with Islam,if I'm not mistaken.

I see your point.
The challenge is that Islam has no Pope, clergy or church, like Christianity has. Its a decentralized religion and thats why its hard to exclude Wahabist thinking as heresy.

Strictly speaking, Salafism has no doctrines that contradict Islam at its core. Its the practice that is seen strict compares to how islam was practiced in various lands when Salafism emerged.

Really, i challenge anyone who can find any Salafist doctrines which are not founded in Quran and Sunnah. Its very hard, because its all down to interpretion.

Neither Salafism or Sufi are really sects. They are just variants of Sunni ways of practising Islam.

 

[Destranator]

Is Peri Bite a sect as well ? I disassociate myself from any sect. My sect is Biryani

Don't talk to me unless that includes fresh Kachchi Biriyani - no reheated leftover crap please.

 

[StormBreaker]

Don't talk to me unless that includes fresh Kachchi Biriyani - no reheated leftover crap please.

Or Lahori Tikka Chawal which they blasphemously claim to be biryani.

 

[Destranator]

Or Lahori Tikka Chawal which they blasphemously claim to be biryani.

This must be punished by 100 lashes. Please raise it in the next Majlish-e-Biriyani session. I will get it minuted.

 

[Paitoo]

I know,but there are a lot of Indians claiming that Hinduism is the most "scientific religion" etc. Check my thread called "Planet India".

I don't know about those claims, but the thing is that what gets depicted as Hinduism in popular culture is gods and goddesses and they are very fable worthy. In reality, that is a small part of hinduism. An overwhelming majority of Hindu texts do not deal with gods but with philosophy, creation, existence and death, much of which can be abstract and therefore not very approachable.

It is like saying ancient Greek society and their religion is just about Zeus, Poseidon, Aprhodite, unending wars, nude sculptures, whereas the fact is that many great philosophers of ancient times were Greek and wrote on a vast array of subjects. We are somewhat similar and lines between gods, deities, natural, supernatural, reality and myth can get blurry. Anyways, this is a vast subject and I don't want to derail the thread which is about sufism etc.

 

[SD 10]

always preferred sufism to wahabism......... but there needs to be reform in this sect. There are certain things that people do without having any knowledge about whether it is right or not