Stop maligning the military

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

The US, I honestly believe, is not so mild-mannered as they may appear. They have threatened actions against Pakistan on many occasions. The recent one to suspend aid to Pakistan for one man is a recent example. Currently, we don't have the capability to fight the US if it chooses to attack in full force alongwith its pals aka NATO (minus Turkey).

We don't have them in our reach yet. Or we can do what Iran did and threaten to attack Israel if the US decides in favour of military action against us. But then we put the lives of people in that region at risk.

The biggest mistake we can make is to underestimate them.
UAE, which has been vocal about Muslim unity (atleast until the late Shk. Zayed), has agreed to send its aircraft to Libya to ensure no-fly-zone is adhered to. This is US influence, think what an aircraft carrier poised close to countries can make them do.

This is why the Pak Army may not see another option except to cooperate. They are willing to die for Pakistan, but can they be beartless enough to see masses of the population die too? I don't think so.



Yes, I agree with you here. Snakes are not to be trusted. But we have no choice at the moment. The CIA has been actively involved in spreading discord among countries to splinter them and fight each other. A united nation is the greatest threat to them and their malfunctioning foreign policy.

Search Eustace Mullins on youtube.

All of that is fine by me... but then I want everyone to come clean over the issue... accept in public that we are nothing but slaves... America is a big bully that will annihilate us to stone age and we do not have the guts/capability to confront America in anyway or form... We should at least be honest and open about this... I mean a soldier thanked you who said on this very thread "what happened to last man and last bullet"...

Alas... one reads about Muslims striking fear into enemy Armies hundreds of times bigger and more powerful than themselves... whatever happened to "Iman Taqwa Jihad"... sad joke our Army is then I m afraid...

or maybe its all an excuse to cover up for downright treason... people are free to pick and choose here...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

yea i found that out few days ago

btw this thread has become an excuse list why some people of Pakistan wont change themselves and opt for an easier option i.e. blame someone else (here army) for their sad story of life. it was amusing in the begining but most of the posters are repeating themselves.

this thread is our excuse why we wont change our ways

What keeps me amazingly surprised is that this Pak Army is actually the one that will shake the very throne of Allah swt... and I get surprised over this when I see the things that are happening today... but then

Ok let me explain... one of the key people who gave support to syedna Muhammad saw in Madina was a man named Saad Bin Muaz RA, a leader of one of the tribes of Ansar... he was initially skeptical of the idea of Islam and approached a Sahabi who was visiting Madina to teach people about Islam... He accused Musab RA of dividing the people and all... and Musab calmly listened and then replied, would you now listen to me... and in response recited the Quran to Saad... that changed Saad's heart and he decided to support the cause of Islam... and upon Saad's death Rasool Allah said that the throne of Allah shook when Saad died... for the support that he gave to Muslims...

This is to be the destiny of Pak Army too inshaAllah... You are the Ansar of the new dawn of Islam... We are never going to give up hope in our Army no matter what happens... You should always remember that...

As for muse... like his comments or not... what he is saying is what people think of the Army... he is represeting the thoughts and feelings of the common man in Pakistan today...

 

[khurasaan1]

yea i found that out few days ago

btw this thread has become an excuse list why some people of Pakistan wont change themselves and opt for an easier option i.e. blame someone else (here army) for their sad story of life. it was amusing in the begining but most of the posters are repeating themselves.

this thread is our excuse why we wont change our ways

Look guyz ..so many pplz over here saying that dont blame the Army its the Gop to be blamed...If Army dont have balls to take decisions on their own even they r trained to fight and give their lives for the country or Islam then howcome u all gyz blame the Gop/politicianz as they dont even know how to fight or got trained to fight......we should stop this blame game to fool each other...Come to the reality and accept the truth that...we all are just cowards and scumbags......try to get ballz from somewhere....
we shold come to this reality that nobody is coward if he got the powerful gun in his hand than the enemy......If we had ICBMS like the Veto powerz of UN then we could have challaged US without any hesitation....If we dont then we will alwayz get whipped by US or other NATOz like a donkey....this is the game of Hydrogen bombz and ICBMS....
not just talkings big frm mouth or arssez.....

 

[Xeric]

@MBQ

Sometimes it appears as if you are among those who considered Sulah Hudaibiya as a defeat.

Zahid Hamid alone is enough a bada$$ for us, we need no more!

And please, now spare me your usual lecture on Iman and Jihad, believe me, i know better than you on the subject!

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

@MBQ

Sometimes it appears as if you are among those who considered Sulah Hudaibiya as a defeat.

Zahid Hamid alone is enough a bada$$ for us, we need no more!

And please, now spare me your usual lecture on Iman and Jihad, believe me, i know better than you on the subject!

I m not lecturing you on anything... I am however pointing out that there is an interesting situation here about "last man last bullet" which kinda evaporates when the enemy is United States... I mean no disrespect to you sir...

As for Sulah Hudabiya... Bro... there needs to be a limit to mocking the seerah of our noble prophet saw... If the sick terrorists of TTP are mocking Islam by twisting its teachings... then we are guilty of the same crime when we cheer for people like Musharaf quoting Sulah Hudabiyah to us laying the ground work for the bloodshed that we are seeing in our country today... Is Pakistan the Madina that the Prophet and Sahabah had established?

The world saw the fall of Mecca within a short time after the Hudaibiyah treaty... The wisdom of this current Sulah Hudaibiyah is still evading our minds after almost a decade of this ongoing war on terror...

Yes perhaps I should quote this hadith from Tabarani here...

The prophet saw said (translation)...

"The final hour (judgement day) shall not arrive until Muslims conquer the white house"...

Have a good weekend...

 

[Elmo]

Come to the reality and accept the truth that...we all are just cowards and scumbags......try to get ballz from somewhere....
we shold come to this reality that nobody is coward if he got the powerful gun in his hand than the enemy......

Power of the invisible... ever heard that phrase?

Firstly, the army cannot be blamed for all the ills but that does not mean it is not responsible for where the country is today. Politicians, political leaders, workers, technocrats, businessmen right down to the not-so-common common man is to be held responsible for the doing and undoing of this country.

Insecurity and opprtunism are two things that plague Pakistan and the reasons are obvious. No one knows which direction this country is headed, so people try to rake the most through the limited means available, thus they forgo all concepts of right and wrong. They exist in the "me me world" only. For them anyone who does not agree with their limited worldview needs to be eliminated.

Guts or no guts, your voice simply won't register.

The point is even people in sister services have questioned their decisions.

No service is perfect, here or abroad. Everyone has the right to question actions and the services have the duty to respond and address the concersn raised.

If this would have been routine, so many bad decisions would not have been taken if the precedent had been set.

Just so you are not confused - the argument is not that the army is just no damn good and should just crawl into a corner and die -- the argument is that the army has been less than smart, less than brilliant, less than visionary and that it is an existential imperative that it be that.

So instead of attempting evasion, it might do what is required of it to do.

Muse, how do you make anyone (users here) agree with you when a lot don't understand what brilliance, vision and smartness entails. That these words are more than words, that they are acts and actions. How does one do that?

 

[muse]

Muse, how do you make anyone (users here) agree with you when a lot don't understand what brilliance, vision and smartness entails. That these words are more than words, that they are acts and actions. How does one do that?

Elmo:

These people can play dumb all they like, in the end they demean the Fauj by playing dumb - they say Fauj don't know how to be Brilliant, Visionary or Smart, it's OK, because looks who's actually buying into their line, no one == doing better, these persons think is unseemly of us to ask of them, in other words they learn the hard way.

Thank you for being a critical reader - for me, the Fauj being brilliance, Visionary and Smart, means that the Fauj has more THAN less, a correct analysis, has managed relationships with Pakistani politicians, bureaucrats and with external stakeholders, is extremely proficient at it's main function, safe guarding Pakistanis and their property.

So when we become aware that foreign spy agencies have been running operations in Pakistan and the ISI, a army run outfit, claims it did not know or that it's been had - well, other than sounding than less than the truth, it suggests that we have an incompetent organization, doesn't it ?? And of course something has to be done about that

And then there is this drone BS -- What's is the denial all about?? Think this one over, on one hand we say that we are opposed to these drone attacks, then again, many of these drones are operated from Pakistani bases, and of course the intense HUMINT operation it takes to enable the drones, has to be either a Pakistani operation, or else once again, ISI and by extension, the Fauj, opens itself to the charge of incompetence and negligence of duty -- And on the other hand Pakistan does not fail to make the public case that it wants drone technology to target precisely the people who are being targeted -- What part of any of this is Smart? Visionary? Brilliant? -- What does it say about the kinds of ideas that inform the Faujs's understanding of public policy???? or the fauj's understanding of forming public opinion and telling it's own story?? --- You know the lame defense offered is that that it's not the core competence of the Fauj to be "brilliant" at PR and Public policy/Diplomacy, fine then why the heck is the Fauj involved in doing what it says are not it's strengths and what exactly are it's strengths, after all, we all know it's not killing off Pakistan's enemies, obviously, right??

Just be sure that these more Catholic than the Pope types do the Fauj no favors ---- and the real Fauji types know this because they know that the Fauj itself has to be rebuilt into a/the Fauj .

 

[RazorMC]

The drones were approved by former President Musharraf, who allegedly also sold an airbase to the US.
(R) Gen. Shahid Aziz mentioned this on 'Capital Talk' and also said that Musharraf only informed the Core Comm. after the deal. You can't blame the army here until there is a mechanism that protects officers who disobey orders if they are against Pakistan's vital security interest.

While it is true that we have had a lot of military rule, democracy also enjoyed its time in power. Instead of focusing on development, many used this time to print money and exact revenge on their opponents.

Even now, democracy's gift has been of incompetency and a continuing decline in Pakistan's prestige on a global level.

 

[RazorMC]

Look guyz ..so many pplz over here saying that dont blame the Army its the Gop to be blamed...If Army dont have balls to take decisions on their own even they r trained to fight and give their lives for the country or Islam then howcome u all gyz blame the Gop/politicianz as they dont even know how to fight or got trained to fight......

The GoP is supposed to make the decisions, not the Army. You don't need to be trained for combat to make policies about the welfare of the nation, its education system, its law and order situation and the overall prestige of Pakistan.

But just to remind people about the competency of the current government regarding foreign policy, wasn't it our wise President who said that we'll send the ISI Chief to India after the attacks in Mumbai ??

I won't praise a coup, but really, this ridiculous government is not what I had in mind when I think about democracy and people's rule.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Muse, how do you make anyone (users here) agree with you when a lot don't understand what brilliance, vision and smartness entails. That these words are more than words, that they are acts and actions. How does one do that?

with all due respect I find my self crushed under the weight of these words.

please come down to our level and speak the language of a commoner then maybe there is a chance for us to embrace this wisdom.
Jinnah spoke a language which our forefathers understood and they followed him to the end. maybe he was ahead of his time even for today but he connected.
Unless our elite class of intellectuals and visionaries doesn’t connect to the public, its critique & philosophy will remain within the confines of the drawing rooms and die with them. Dismissing us as dim-witted dorks wont solve the problem you have highlighted.

It reminds me a joke about a very rich and arrogant politician who visits poor neighbourhood during his election campaign and makes a speech

لوگ مجھے مغرور کہتے ہیں
اگر ایسی بات ہوتی تو میں تم جیسے
گھٹیا اور دو ٹکے کے لوگوں کے پاس آکر اپنا وقت ضائع نہ کرتا


for the benefit of those who don’t understand Urdu, the politician said
“People accuse me of being arrogant (because of my wealth & high social stature) but if that was true I wouldn’t have been wasting my (valuable) time with the pathetic and worthless people like you

 

[Elmo]

with all due respect I find my self crushed under the weight of these words.

please come down to our level and speak the language of a commoner then maybe there is a chance for us embrace this wisdom.
Jinnah spoke a language which our forefathers understood and they followed him to the end. maybe he was ahead of his time even for today but he connected.
Unless our elite class of intellectuals and visionaries doesn’t connect to the public, its critique & philosophy will remain within the confines of the drawing rooms and die with them. Dismissing us as dim-witted dorks wont solve the problem you have highlighted.

It reminds me a joke about a very rich and arrogant politician who visits poor neighbourhood during his election campaign and makes a speech

لوگ مجھے مغرور کہتے ہیں
اگر ایسی بات ہوتی تو میں تم جیسے
گھٹیا اور دو ٹکے کے لوگوں کے پاس آکر اپنا وقت ضائع نہ کرتا


for the benefit of those who don’t understand Urdu, the politician said

Your first half, I was genuinely saddened that you feel crushed by them... but then you contradict yourself when you quote the arrogant politician's quote. Either you are a commoner and you do not understand what they mean hence cannot be bogged down or you do understand and hence are bogged down. Jin ko andaza nahin, unn ko koi fikr nahin hoti. So decide first.

 

[VCheng]

........ and the sands of time are running out for the State while this discussion rages on and on ad infinitum.

 

[Elmo]

........ and the sands of time are running out for the State while this discussion rages on and on ad infinitum.

We'll just flip the hour glass then

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Your first half, I was genuinely saddened that you feel crushed by them... but then you contradict yourself when you quote the arrogant politician's quote. Either you are a commoner and you do not understand what they mean hence cannot be bogged down or you do understand and hence are bogged down. Jin ko andaza nahin, unn ko koi fikr nahin hoti. So decide first.

haha you decided for me already, I am bogged down either way.:

 

[VCheng]

We'll just flip the hour glass then

LOL! I sincerely hope it is as easy as that!

Seriously though, the present times are indeed perilous, and now, more than ever, a national consensus about the way forward is an increasingly dire need.