Stop maligning the military

[kursed]

I perfectly understand the theme, what I don't understand is the sudden need to suggest that civilians alone control the shots when it comes to drone-strikes. If Army is not in its favor, there's nothing that the GOP can do to make it accept them (much like the Kerry Lugur Bill fiasco, transferring control of ISI to Interior ministry, sending Gen. Pasha to India et al).

So, pray tell me, did Army's opposition to drone attacks begin after the 2008 elections? Or did it precede it?

 

[Xeric]

I perfectly understand the theme, what I don't understand is the sudden need to suggest that civilians alone control the shots when it comes to drone-strikes. If Army is not in its favor, there's nothing that the GOP can do to make it accept them (much like the Kerry Lugur Bill, transferring control of ISI to Interior ministry, sending Gen. Pasha to India et al).

So, pray tell me, did Army's opposition to drone attacks begin after the 2008 elections? Or did it precede it?

i asked you this because you failed to see two things; one, that Gen Pasha was generalizing the situation whereby he admitted that there's A number that we can attribute to those terrorists who were killed by the drones, now this neither implies that this number was more than the civilian causalities, nor does it say that the Army supports the attacks. Two, as i have been shouting since the very start of this thread and elsewhere that it is now that the Army has refrained from fingering the politicians, this phase or era, whatever you like to term has its inception somewhere around post-Musharraf. The elections held under were the cleanest, half-hearted attempts/operations in Wana were stopped, Swat was operated in ONLY after a complete census was developed among the civilian and military bureaucracy and the fed govt etc etc.

You probably need to understand the measures through which the Army was able to 'influence' political decisions in the past. Here, let me help you, actions like creation of MQM, influencing the elections, 'buying' opinion formers (the media is free now, right?), dandofying the politicians (now the COAS himself goes to the PM/President house to brief the 'lords', previously the case was otherwise, right?) etc etc were a few methods through which the military had been 'ruling' the 'bloody civilians', now you tell me, can you cite me an example related to the steps mentioned above, since Gen Kiyani took over? BTW, wasnt the first thing that Kiyani did after he took over was pulling out every fauji from the civilians institutions?

Had the Army been doing what you and your likes so vigorously propagate, shouldnt the 'aid' under the CSF would have been routed through the Army as opposed to the current practice where GoP controls the funds (and only $ 1.6 billions have been paid to the military out of the total of $ 10 billion that the GoP had received so far under the CSF?). Hadnt Sir Davis been released the very next day or in worst case scenario never had been arrested if it were upto the Army as had been happening during Musharraf's rule? And guess what, your idea of bringing in the ISI and the KL Bill into this is quite doltish. Why? Because KL was opposed NOT because it didnt favored the Army but it was against the very definition of sovereignty, and guess what, it wasnt only the Army that opposed it, a few people in civies (who had a working upper chamber) also did the same, that's one. Two, bringing ISI under the civilian control is as absurd as it can be, now if you want the ISI to be as dumb as the IB (where some geniuses (the IB Officers) presented the fcuking list of UNDERCOVER agents working outside Pakistan to the Supreme Court just because they wanted to fight their case where upon they wanted to prove that they were superseded or other Officers or yes-men were promoted out of turn!!), then please be my guest. And oh yes, if you missed it, let me remind you that recently about 4000 suckers were reinstated back (with full pay arrears and promotions from the date they were sacked) into the IB by none other than Sir Zardari, and not surprisingly those who were reinstated happened to be none other than THE PPP jiyalas!! :http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-destroys-domestic-intelligence-agency-3.html

 

[kursed]

Nowhere have I suggested that what the civilians were doing was exemplary in possible way. I'm not trying to justify one, by abusing the other. My point is simple, that civilians alone are not controlling Pakistan's policy on drone strikes - hence the questions. And I'm not even talking about R.D. here. I've already clarified my position on that front, many pages ago.

1. Now as you've rightly suggested that certain parts of KLB were against 'national sovereignty' hence the opposition on part of the men in camo, are drone strikes not?
2. If Army deemed it fit to speak against ISI's transfer to Ministry of Interior or sending of Gen. Pasha of India, how can one even fathom them staying silent on the matter of drone strikes, and playing second fiddle to civilians, where actual lives are at stake? That's if they actually disagree.
3. The bit about civilian causality count vs terrorists killed in drone strikes was recently explained by the GOC N.W. op himself. It suggested otherwise.
4. GOP has received 10 billion USD in CSF in last 3 years? I'm absolutely unaware of this development. Care to share a link on this? I'd really like to read up on this.
5. Once again, the opposition to drone strikes by Army that you just spoke about, did it precede the 2008 elections or did it start after it?

 

[Xeric]

i can see that you are confused now.

Still; ONLINE - International News Network

 

[khurasaan1]

xeric - unfortunately the problem lies in the 'perception' that the army still 'stirs the drink' in pakistan and the present civilian govt. is just a 'facade' created by the US/pak establishment (read army) and therefore the army is in 'cahoots' with the US on the drone policy, fata, afghanistan, india. if the army is 'front and center', then the US congress will not 'support' the 'un-demcratic' army but the current disposition is 'palatable' to them. - its a bloody f^^^^^g mess we are in!!!

Yes!........++++++++++++++++1111111111111111
very true...
The GOP is just made a scapegoat....everybody is involved....if anybody is sincere....is gonna give resignation but everybody needs pay so they going together sharing the interests of money...only annd LOYALTY is secondary things to everybody in the GOP and the ARMY(some)...
so in this case ..what is gonna happen here.....the curse or the punishment of GOD/Allah SBWT will fall upon everybody GOP , the Army and the public as well...everybody is gonna suffer..nobody gonna get spared......but there is one plus point I guess with the Army that they r getting prepared for it too.....cuz this mess gonna take the whole world as well.....even the western evil powerz.....cuz in near future an unexpected turn can come to surprise everybody in the whole world .....and the West is getting prepared for that too...they r very cautious about their enemies.....or expected enemies...

 

[RazorMC]

So the Pakistani armed forces cannot protect Pakistan, Pakistanis and their property from the US -- Why then do we need this huge expenditure, why do we have a military that actually cooperates with the those who are Pakistan's enemies?

Pakistan and Pakistanis need armed forces whose entire purpose is the protection of Pakistan, for this to happen, the present leadership and ethic of the armed forces as presently formed, must be allowed to pass into the dust bin of history, where it richly belongs, or to retirement in the West, same difference.

If the US chose to attack Pakistan, then it has the capacity to do that atleast. All they need is an excuse to present to Americans.
Let's face it. We don't have the tech to fight their F-22s let alone the hardware that is already on their drawing board. They are reportedly workng on airborne laser systems.

Until such time that we have them within our reach, we need to bide our time and play the cards carefully.

As for the politicians, we can just chuck them out alongwith their ethics and try to ensure that coups don't happen again. Let there be strict accountability so corruption can come down to manageable levels.

 

[RazorMC]

Ajeeb... Pak Army is co operating with US to protect Pakistan??

The US, I honestly believe, is not so mild-mannered as they may appear. They have threatened actions against Pakistan on many occasions. The recent one to suspend aid to Pakistan for one man is a recent example. Currently, we don't have the capability to fight the US if it chooses to attack in full force alongwith its pals aka NATO (minus Turkey).

We don't have them in our reach yet. Or we can do what Iran did and threaten to attack Israel if the US decides in favour of military action against us. But then we put the lives of people in that region at risk.

The biggest mistake we can make is to underestimate them.
UAE, which has been vocal about Muslim unity (atleast until the late Shk. Zayed), has agreed to send its aircraft to Libya to ensure no-fly-zone is adhered to. This is US influence, think what an aircraft carrier poised close to countries can make them do.

This is why the Pak Army may not see another option except to cooperate. They are willing to die for Pakistan, but can they be beartless enough to see masses of the population die too? I don't think so.

Bro... you can expect to be bitten and killed when you befriend a poisonous snake... The world has moved on from the 80s when communism was an enemy... Its Islam they are up against... they have made this very clear... one should not go into denial over this issue...

Yes, I agree with you here. Snakes are not to be trusted. But we have no choice at the moment. The CIA has been actively involved in spreading discord among countries to splinter them and fight each other. A united nation is the greatest threat to them and their malfunctioning foreign policy.

Search Eustace Mullins on youtube.

 

[kursed]

i can see that you are confused now.

Still; ONLINE - International News Network

10 billion PKR, not USD. And I'm confused? Not really, I just didn't know about this particular issue - will research and ask around on my own for further info. Still awaiting answers to my questions, asked 4, thanks for answering one - pray reply the rest as well.

Repeating myself, so you don't have to go over to my post again.

1. Now as you've rightly suggested that certain parts of KLB were against 'national sovereignty' hence the opposition on part of the men in camo, are drone strikes not?
2. If Army deemed it fit to speak against ISI's transfer to Ministry of Interior or sending of Gen. Pasha of India, how can one even fathom them staying silent on the matter of drone strikes, and playing second fiddle to civilians, where actual lives are at stake - that's if they actually disagree?
3. The bit about civilian causality count vs terrorists killed in drone strikes was recently explained by the GOC N.W. op himself. It suggested otherwise.
5. Once again, the opposition to drone strikes by Army that you just spoke about, did it precede the 2008 elections or did it start after it?

 

[RazorMC]

Let this be very clear that the Pakistan Army is not being dictated by the US. Yes, the military is in cooperation with the US and assists her in her fight against terrorism. Now there's a difference between assisting someone and 'allowing drone attacks' on ones land. For a final time, the military is as opposed to the drone attacks as any of you here is. If you want them to stop, well you have to ask GoP to do it. Till the time the govt doesnt asks the military to take action, the military cant bring down a drone at its own. It is the National Policy towards the drone attacks that need to be challenged, not the military's stance.

BTW, for those who blame the military for 'brokering the deal' as regards the R.Davis case, i must tell them that it was the military that told the US to back off and let the GoP handle the issue as per the dictates of the situation. Or else the US had already gone overboard in defending Davis by terming his as a diplomat.

Yes. I was referring to cooperation only, not the drone attacks. The Government can condemn them and declare them as Acts against Pakistan's Sovereignity in the NA and that will be the end of them hopefully. Question is; why doesn't the PPP do it ?? There's enough public support for such a bill.

Fact: It is the military that is still protecting the nukes.

Let the current govt. be in charge of the nukes and we'll see "PPP Shaheed III" and a lot of PPP endorsing names for the bombs. They will eventually be sold to the US for $$$ though.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Still awaiting answers to my questions, asked 4, thanks for answering one - pray reply the rest as well.

5. Once again, the opposition to drone strikes by Army that you just spoke about, did it precede the 2008 elections or did it start after it?
Repeating myself, so you don't have to go over to my post again.

re number five I can tell you quoting Gen Tariq Khan, who in an interview said that no army likes to see someone else engaging in a fight in its presence. Pak army rather do it itself. that was before the elections.
using drones against the militants is no problem but the opposition and problem is with the collateral damage and hence Pakistan Army's strong reaction to the attack on the open air peace gathering of the elders. just like the attacks on its posts in the past. before PPP the decision maker was Gen Musharraf but now its a civilian democratic government whose prime minister says to the Americans that you guys carry on with the attacks we will continue to condemn it in the parliament.
so my dears whether or not Pakistan army likes the drone strikes is irrelevent because it is PPP government asking Americans to continue with the strikes and stay in Afghanistan longer too.

 

[muse]

So the army does not want the drone attacks, Maj.Gen Tariq says and yet the GoP does ---- is that what you are saying?? If yes, does it not suggest that the Army is not on the same page as the government? If the Army brass has a problem with the policies of the government and the government is not open to advice of the army, shouldn't the Gen. Kiyani and Gen. Pasha resign??


This thread has tried to evade responsibility of the army by going Islamican and anti-democracy, now it's gone anti-drone - but anyway you cut this cake, you end up with a strong taste of army.

Just so you are not confused - the argument is not that the army is just no damn good and should just crawl into a corner and die -- the argument is that the army has been less than smart, less than brilliant, less than visionary and that it is an existential imperative that it be that.

So instead of attempting evasion, it might do what is required of it to do.

 

[irfan1173]

AoA
Pakistani's love their army.But they question the decision made by the top echelon of the army specially after the Davis affair. When it comes to WOT the only opinion that matters is that of GHQ. Being raised in army household I have atmost repect for the institution my father served and lot of my relatives currently serving. But bad decisions at the top has not only given bad name to the institution but also weakened the ultimate sacrifices made by the lower officers and soldiers. As far as drone strikes are concerned the decision was done under Musharraf and something which the top leadership of the army agreed although reluctantly. To say now that the army is just following civilian orders is disingenuous at best. It hurts to say but Army top brass have failed to do their job and continuous interference in civilian and other other institutions have weakened the other pillars of a great nation. Hey still remember after the Indians shot down the Atlantique my commander ( I was serving in the navy at that time) in fact of blaming the Indians blamed Musharraf for the incident. The point is even people in sister services have questioned their decisions.

 

[Xeric]

10 billion PKR, not USD. And I'm confused? Not really, I just didn't know about this particular issue - will research and ask around on my own for further info. Still awaiting answers to my questions, asked 4, thanks for answering one - pray reply the rest as well.

My bad.

You know, we Army Officers are so $$ hungry, i commit the same mistake often.

Repeating myself, so you don't have to go over to my post again.

Abay ab stamp paper pe likh k don kaya?

i can only put that bite into your mouth, it is you who has to chew it further down

 

[Xeric]

Looks like Musey is running out of ideas

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Looks like Musey is running out of ideas

yea i found that out few days ago

btw this thread has become an excuse list why some people of Pakistan wont change themselves and opt for an easier option i.e. blame someone else (here army) for their sad story of life. it was amusing in the begining but most of the posters are repeating themselves.

this thread is our excuse why we wont change our ways