Stop maligning the military

[SQ8]

LOL! I sincerely hope it is as easy as that!

Seriously though, the present times are indeed perilous, and now, more than ever, a national consensus about the way forward is an increasingly dire need.

A catalyst is needed for that.. for the common man.. dont ever expect anybody to reach any consensus here..
The democratic process is too young in Pakistan for that to happen.
A world cup win perhaps would be a nice cheer up for the nation though..

 

[Mujeeb47]

The power of vote can act as catalyst.

 

[VCheng]

A catalyst is needed for that.. for the common man.. dont ever expect anybody to reach any consensus here..
The democratic process is too young in Pakistan for that to happen.
A world cup win perhaps would be a nice cheer up for the nation though..

I agree that a World Cup win would be good for the national psyche, specially after the bruising it sustained in the Davis affair.

However, cricket is not an economically productive endeavor, and those are the onse needed that will uplift the standards of living for the masses. The two catalysts I fear are a lack of power and energy for homes and factories, and water for agriculture and other uses, as precipitants for widespread social unrest.

 

[Mujeeb47]

Cricket will bring only emotional feelings

 

[Elmo]

LOL! I sincerely hope it is as easy as that!

Seriously though, the present times are indeed perilous, and now, more than ever, a national consensus about the way forward is an increasingly dire need.

I'll throw another cliche: rising from the dust?

You think entire countries have not been created, and worked their way up from nothing. It's called, hard work, perseverance and honesty.

There are also Quiad's points about unity, faith and discipline but no one seems willing to believe in uniting for a cause, having faith in each other or be disciplined enough to be true professionals. There I lambasted the whole crew.

I am increasingly becoming wary of a consensus... in human histort, except perhaps the Japanese, there will be difficulty in finding consensus on what a small class of people think. Whether we like it or not, in Pakistan there is a consensus among the majority on many issues, take for instance the blasphemy laws. No one in the 'majority' wants it reformed let alone repealed.

 

[SQ8]

Lets put it this way..
THe Quaid's.. Jinnah's Pakistan is dead and gone.. it broke in the bay of bengal and any remnants of it have been killed off by Zia.
Its a lost dream..
Now the focus must be to work with what we have.. try to reach some consensus with the current mix of people that make Pakistan.
And eventually.. and quite possibly.. Jinnah's vision of Pakistan may we come back in some form.

 

[VCheng]

As much as I want to believe you both, my inclination, based on evidence, cautions against optimism.

There is no denying that Pakistan has defied adverse odds many times before, but we are walking ahead while others are running or sprinting ahead. Therein lies the problem as we get shut out from the future.

 

[Elmo]

As much as I want to believe you both, my inclination, based on evidence, cautions against optimism.

There is no denying that Pakistan has defied adverse odds many times before, but we are walking ahead while others are running or sprinting ahead. Therein lies the problem as we get shut out from the future.

VCheng, umeed pay dunya qaim hai. (the world's based on hope). Would like to be a doomsdayer and naysayer? Would you like to be feared? Would
you rather cower down?

"But to him who is conscious of no sin, sweet hope, as Pindar charmingly says, is the kind nurse of his age: 'Hope,' he says, 'cherishes the soul of him who lives in justice and holiness, and is the nurse of his age and the companion of his journey;--hope which is mightiest to sway the restless soul of man.' How admirable are his words! And the great blessing of riches, I do not say to every man, but to a good man, is, that he has had no occasion to deceive or to defraud others, either intentionally or unintentionally; and when he departs to the world below he is not in any apprehension about offerings due to the gods or debts which he owes to men"
Source: Plato, The Republic

Sometimes, against the tide, you just got to do your own thing.

Lets put it this way..
THe Quaid's.. Jinnah's Pakistan is dead and gone.. it broke in the bay of bengal and any remnants of it have been killed off by Zia.
Its a lost dream..
Now the focus must be to work with what we have.. try to reach some consensus with the current mix of people that make Pakistan.
And eventually.. and quite possibly.. Jinnah's vision of Pakistan may we come back in some form.

There won't be a consensus on what "we" want. That's that. Our hands aren't tied, it's just that what we want is not aspired by the millions of this nation state. We have to work around what they want in terms of economic stability and hope that they lend an ear to us too when it comes to social and religio-political subjects.

 

[VCheng]

Elmo: I loved your post and the quote. I really really really hope and pray that all these umeeds and umangs of the Pakistani nation come true!

 

[kursed]

Abay ab stamp paper pe likh k don kaya?

i can only put that bite into your mouth, it is you who has to chew it further down

I'm really not in to debate for the sake of a debate. Pray just explain as to whether Army's opposition (as you mentioned) to drone strikes start after the 2008 elections, or before it?

Gen Tariq Khan, who in an interview said that no army likes to see someone else engaging in a fight in its presence. Pak army rather do it itself.

If that was the general view across the board within the army and its top brass, why did Pakistan share AFBs with the Americans to station predators within Pakistan? And why did Army allow drone strikes within Pakistani borders, b/w 2004 and 2008?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

As much as I want to believe you both, my inclination, based on evidence, cautions against optimism.

There is no denying that Pakistan has defied adverse odds many times before, but we are walking ahead while others are running or sprinting ahead. Therein lies the problem as we get shut out from the future.

Actually we are walking backwards with our eyes closed too...

Watch out!!!

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Look guyz ..so many pplz over here saying that dont blame the Army its the Gop to be blamed...If Army dont have balls to take decisions on their own even they r trained to fight and give their lives for the country or Islam then howcome u all gyz blame the Gop/politicianz as they dont even know how to fight or got trained to fight......we should stop this blame game to fool each other...Come to the reality and accept the truth that...we all are just cowards and scumbags......try to get ballz from somewhere....
we shold come to this reality that nobody is coward if he got the powerful gun in his hand than the enemy......If we had ICBMS like the Veto powerz of UN then we could have challaged US without any hesitation....If we dont then we will alwayz get whipped by US or other NATOz like a donkey....this is the game of Hydrogen bombz and ICBMS....
not just talkings big frm mouth or arssez.....

I think we need to lend a few ICBMs from China to sort America out... Not too many... Just a dozen would do... at least we can move on from this mindset that America will throw us into stone age if we tried to break the chains of slavery... if they did then we could threaten them with a radioactive age for a dozen of their cities... either that or our own missile tech has to advance on the "din dugni raat chogni" principle... I dont know why but everytime I think of our missile tech, I see North Koreans in my mind...

So there... we have come to an agreement... we want to break free... and for that we need a deterence against big bad badmash of the world... so he would nt threaten to shoot us coz we can threaten to shoot him and his family as well as his grandmother back... Now the Army knows where it has to invest some of its budget... I give you two years for this... make it so... God and Ummah are proud of your services...

Time for me to go to bed... Shab bakhair all... and stop maligning the Army... we shall resume in two years time if they dont get us some ICBMs in two years...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

VCheng, umeed pay dunya qaim hai. (the world's based on hope). Would like to be a doomsdayer and naysayer? Would you like to be feared? Would
you rather cower down?

"But to him who is conscious of no sin, sweet hope, as Pindar charmingly says, is the kind nurse of his age: 'Hope,' he says, 'cherishes the soul of him who lives in justice and holiness, and is the nurse of his age and the companion of his journey;--hope which is mightiest to sway the restless soul of man.' How admirable are his words! And the great blessing of riches, I do not say to every man, but to a good man, is, that he has had no occasion to deceive or to defraud others, either intentionally or unintentionally; and when he departs to the world below he is not in any apprehension about offerings due to the gods or debts which he owes to men"
Source: Plato, The Republic

Sometimes, against the tide, you just got to do your own thing.





There won't be a consensus on what "we" want. That's that. Our hands aren't tied, it's just that what we want is not aspired by the millions of this nation state. We have to work around what they want in terms of economic stability and hope that they lend an ear to us too when it comes to social and religio-political subjects.

Certain issues are not for discussion anymore... You should be aware of that...

 

[sur]

Lets put it this way..
THe Quaid's.. Jinnah's Pakistan is dead and gone.. it broke in the bay of bengal and any remnants of it have been killed off by Zia.
Its a lost dream.. ....

Nopes,,, I AM STILL ALIVE,,, & DREAMING,,, & MANY OTHERS LIKE ME... We are overshadowed/undermined but we are NOT dead yet...

 

[fatman17]

Sir i can tell you this with confidence that the Army is not the one who is calling the shots on vital policies and decisions. No doubt that the (Army's) danda is at work behind the scenes but then the intensity is exactly at the level that is merely required, nothing more, nothing less, that is to say, nor it is sitting idle and just watching the country going down the whirlpool, neither does it intervene when it comes to policy making. Yes, it's advice (when sought or OTHERWISE) is absolutely there where required, but then it does not pull the strings as it has been in the past with it's tools like the ISI or building up pressure inside the cooker. May be i can should that the Army is 'playing it cool' this time

But then you are also right that the fault lies with the perception, but then who makes the perception? It is made by the guys like you and me (atleast we do that when it comes to PDF, atleast), people who write columns with flowery english and the guys who come on tv and shout out loud whatever suites their politics.

So, we need to correct these people, the rest would automatically follow. But unfortunately there are some 'intellectuals' who, despite of their superior understanding and knowledge (deliberately or unwittingly) fails the grasp over issues. These, sir, are the guys we should be worried the most about!!

there are elements/sections who want this perception to continue, and therefore we will continue to hear that the army is 'controlling' behind the scene. as far as the politicians go, they also want to be part of this bandwagon and state 'our hands are tied, we want to do this and that but the army wont let us' - this fits their agenda - they are 'clueless'.

when the prez addresses the joint session of parliament and basically states that 'ALL IS WELL', then who are we to complain?!

as some have suggested that the solution of our country's problem is to 'dissolve' the army - hell lets do that and then see where we stand?!.