Stop maligning the military

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The liberal commentators in Pakistan have been perhaps amongst the biggest disappointments for me since the 2008 elections. Expecting them to continue championing the rule of law, constitutionality and principled positions, we have instead been treated to a shameless defence of every sin of the Ppp.

I am convinced that Nadeem F. Paracha is stoned out of his mind every time he submits his garbage to Dawn

the man is a hang-over from a different era. Shafi and Paracha especially are nothing more than unpatriotic marxists who hate the country and everything it stands for

 

[muse]

Genuinely interesting to see the trajectory crafted by deletions in this thread - For some Pakistanis, there is no adversary other than India, even when it should be crystal clear that after military action against three Mouzlum trouble makers (and more to follow, Syria watch your six, Iran dispatch diplomats not to Berlin, but to London) with the army of Iraq reconstituted, the Afghan armed forces in the process of being "trained", with Yemen soon to be fragmented, none of which involve the Indian --- All theses movements have a common thread, the populace's rejection of failure, rejection of coercion and most of all rejection of lies --- learn and reform while there is time, learn to tell friends from foes, because tomorrow when the opportunity to learn and reform becomes more distant, those who offer their support in the suppression of critical review will be among the most vociferous in their condemnation of the armed forces.

"Stop maligning the Army"!! When will the army stop the terrorists it has unleashed on Pakistan and the region? When will the army learn that an army's job is to defend the country, it's citizens and their property and not to use ethnicity and religion and terrorism against it's own citizenry.

Politicians bad? of course they are. Inept? Duh! news paper Op/Ed piece writers ideological? Really?

Mouzlums got a solution ? Khilafate? great, bring on even greater terror and repression, army won't stop it, why should it?? There will be even more of a rationale for their existence and their demand for a greater share of the purse -- Every time the army finds that it's ineptitude has landed it in trouble, it's time to roll out the mouzlums -- witness this thread and it's trajectory.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Genuinely interesting to see the trajectory crafted by deletions in this thread - For some Pakistanis, there is no adversary other than India, even when it should be crystal clear that after military action against three Mouzlum trouble makers (and more to follow, Syria watch your six, Iran dispatch diplomats not to Berlin, but to London) with the army of Iraq reconstituted, the Afghan armed forces in the process of being "trained", with Yemen soon to be fragmented, none of which involve the Indian --- All theses movements have a common thread, the populace's rejection of failure, rejection of coercion and most of all rejection of lies --- learn and reform while there is time, learn to tell friends from foes, because tomorrow when the opportunity to learn and reform becomes more distant, those who offer their support in the suppression of critical review will be among the most vociferous in their condemnation of the armed forces.

"Stop maligning the Army"!! When will the army stop the terrorists it has unleashed on Pakistan and the region? When will the army learn that an army's job is to defend the country, it's citizens and their property and not to use ethnicity and religion and terrorism against it's own citizenry.

Politicians bad? of course they are. Inept? Duh! news paper Op/Ed piece writers ideological? Really?

Mouzlums got a solution ? Khilafate? great, bring on even greater terror and repression, army won't stop it, why should it?? There will be even more of a rationale for their existence and their demand for a greater share of the purse -- Every time the army finds that it's ineptitude has landed it in trouble, it's time to roll out the mouzlums -- witness this thread and it's trajectory.

I was enjoying myself reading your excellent post until you started talking about the Caliphate...

Bro... It does nt matter for me if you are a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu or an Atheist... What matters to me is that you have a life of dignity, abundance, multiple opportunities, where you and your talents are valued and used... where you are given respect and where you are free to build your material and spiritual wealth... why is it that our educated class so afraid of Islam? True it has been used for vested interests... but why cant we go back to where it all started from... i take it that you are a Muslim and can never hold myself as more Muslim than you or any other... but then what vested interest did our Master Muhammad saw have in bleeding himself yet speaking the truth and establishing justice on earth (naoozobillah)... please get this idea about Caliphate being some sort of a monster out of your minds... remember that Jerusalem was liberated by orders of Umar RA when a Christian delegation came to meet him in Madina and requested him to send his Army to the holy land of Palestine so that they could rid themselves of the oppression of the Romans... please please link in with the sentiments of the common man in our country who sees Islam as a solution despite the massive propaganda our enemies are doing against our ideology... you leave it to some people and they are actually spreading the idea that Davis got off the hook because of Islam...

Also I would never have bothered to write all this unless I believed and wished that there would be a part of you that would know I m speaking the truth... otherwise you can keep thinking that the Army will help the cause of the Caliphate and we will go around shooting people for fun (no one can help such thinking I m afraid then if that is really the case)

As for your criticism about what is happening to our people today... You are being more Muslim than any Mullah out there who is silent in the face of such oppression... no matter what the length of his beard or the size of his turban... these things are never important anyway...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

True, there is no comparison of a Caliphate with the OIC.

But I see the OIC as a step towards a better understanding of other Muslim countries since we have a language and cultural barrier. A unified Muslim voice is another benefit (if the organization becomes stronger) esp. since the latest issue with the burning.

Trust me bro... the OIC is to distract Muslims from achieving the Caliphate... The chairman of the OIC actually gave a statement not long ago that the OIC serves as the Caliphate for Muslims... which we wrote back to them as the Joke of the Century!!!

Yaar how can you take this organization headed by these corrupt Arabs and equally corrupt non Arab rulers of the Muslim world seriously at all...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Is there a party Pakistanis can vote for that is running on the basis of your desired agenda?

No... can you imagine any of these parties doing good for us?? PPP, PML, MQM, ANP, JUI, JI??

Running for elections would mean wanting the right to legislate on behalf of the people... as I have said this already... people have no right to legislate if interest based transactions should be allowed or if the leader (caliph or president... call it whatever you like) should be above the law... or even voting on issues such as public drinking alcohol by a Muslim would be a crime and punished by a fine etc because Islam already declared drinking alcohol as a sin and a crime for Muslims... why does anyone want the power to legislate on these issues now?? Dont we have volumes and volumes about how jurisprudence works in Islam??

This understanding interestingly is given by very few groups... Dr Israr Ahmed's tanzeem is not a political party... we had Zaid Hamid sb talking about same issues for quite a while and it is beginning to seem to me that thats all he wants to do... and you have the Global Liberation Party... it would be worth it to take a look and study their books... I have linked them here on the forum a few times... I ll send them to you also in private later today... inshaAllah

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I urge all readers and dear members to start with this book... I give myself the same advice because I have nt read it completely... but yes... this is a good start...

http://www.caliphate.co.uk/files/Accountability in the Khilafah.pdf

 

[RazorMC]

Accountability is an important aspect in Islam. This is why so many people shy away from Islamic Law. If implemented, so many people will be brought to justice; those who stole money (regardless of the amount), those who took and paid interest and those who take and pay bribes to get their job done among many others.

The most disturbing aspect is that of marriage. Many women were simply pressurized into marrying someone by their families. There were reports about a man who wed his daughter to someone from whom he borrowed a lot of money. He used his young girl to pay-off the debt.
If Shari'ah is implemented, then we can see millions of marriages annulled (if the case is taken to court) since the women did not give consent to their forced marriage.

There are many who don't want this to happen. They want to continue to treat women as commodities that can be traded. There are many who earn millions just from interest and don't want the interest to stop.

I have a question though; if Constitution is said to be in full compliance with the Shari'ah, then how is it that the State Banking based on ineterest is permitted?

I was just curious to know that.

But the fact remains, we really do need a system that actually works for us. Not for the West, not for the East, but for us.
Any system that can ensure justice and social well-being will have my full support, regardless of whether it brings economic boom or not.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No... can you imagine any of these parties doing good for us?? PPP, PML, MQM, ANP, JUI, JI??

Hence my question about whether there is an alternate for people to vote for - if all you are doing is talking about an 'alternate vision of governance' for Pakistan, without any tangible way/vehicle for Pakistanis to focus on in order to achieve that vision, then even those who support your POV will eventually tire and lose heart.

Running for elections would mean wanting the right to legislate on behalf of the people... as I have said this already... people have no right to legislate if interest based transactions should be allowed or if the leader (caliph or president... call it whatever you like) should be above the law... or even voting on issues such as public drinking alcohol by a Muslim would be a crime and punished by a fine etc because Islam already declared drinking alcohol as a sin and a crime for Muslims... why does anyone want the power to legislate on these issues now?? Dont we have volumes and volumes about how jurisprudence works in Islam??

I don't believe Islamic jurisprudence is by any means a settled issue - interpretations can vary, and continue to vary, and differences exist between various sects on certain issues. When political parties/politicians state that they stand for certain issues (interpretations) people have the choice to vote for the individual/party that best represents their views.

At the end of the day governance is about delivering what the people want, not what some Islamic Scholars think people want.

This understanding interestingly is given by very few groups... Dr Israr Ahmed's tanzeem is not a political party... we had Zaid Hamid sb talking about same issues for quite a while and it is beginning to seem to me that thats all he wants to do... and you have the Global Liberation Party... it would be worth it to take a look and study their books... I have linked them here on the forum a few times... I ll send them to you also in private later today... inshaAllah

Unless there is an active party looking to advance this particular agenda you support, I really see no point in researching the issue - like you said about Zahid Hamid - its all talk and pipe dreams without any vehicle (party) offering tangible policies and a tangible roadmap for people to support.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Hence my question about whether there is an alternate for people to vote for - if all you are doing is talking about an 'alternate vision of governance' for Pakistan, without any tangible way/vehicle for Pakistanis to focus on in order to achieve that vision, then even those who support your POV will eventually tire and lose heart.

I don't believe Islamic jurisprudence is by any means a settled issue - interpretations can vary, and continue to vary, and differences exist between various sects on certain issues. When political parties/politicians state that they stand for certain issues (interpretations) people have the choice to vote for the individual/party that best represents their views.

At the end of the day governance is about delivering what the people want, not what some Islamic Scholars think people want.

Unless there is an active party looking to advance this particular agenda you support, I really see no point in researching the issue - like you said about Zahid Hamid - its all talk and pipe dreams without any vehicle (party) offering tangible policies and a tangible roadmap for people to support.

The issues in juris where there is a valid difference of opinion are perfectly understandable... The example is that of the Shia and Sunni... both have their books and I dont see it as a big problem... When issues are taken to court, they can be dealt with according to each person's adoption of particular school of thought... when you go to the details of it, this is nt a big issue because there is pretty much a consensus on the major issues... You wont find anyone saying that its ok to take interest on loans for example... and these are the things that are needed to run a state not how many times one should say Allahu Akbar in prayers which have nothing to do with the functioning of the state rather have to do with personal matters... most of the difference of opinion is in those issues... the State has nothing to do with those issues...

What people need to focus on is to adopt this idea as an alternative to the joke that has been happening to them in the form of democracy/dictatorship/kingship/theocracy etc... the Caliphate is a system of politics and part of statecraft that Islam has taught mankind... majority of people now demand this system as they trust in Islam as a mercy from Allah... as a Just system... the only hurdle remaining before this objective is the corrupt elite of our society (corrupt elite not all the elite)... who opposes this system because they will lose their grip of corrupt power that they have over our society and people...

I agree without a party it is all talk... and I believe that the Liberation Party is going to achieve this aim... It is penetrating society and corridors of influence at multiple levels in Pakistan and some other countries... people doubt this party because they dont contest elections and work in a particular method which is different from the rest of the political parties... I wish that we could have multiple parties pushing for this goal... but for now we have few choices...

Mayoosi is Kufr... so no one is going to lose heart on this issue inshaAllah... it only requires people to be convinced of the noble goal...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

and excellent article about the Sunni Shia issue...


.:Middle East Online :.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The issues in juris where there is a valid difference of opinion are perfectly understandable... The example is that of the Shia and Sunni... both have their books and I dont see it as a big problem... When issues are taken to court, they can be dealt with according to each person's adoption of particular school of thought... when you go to the details of it, this is nt a big issue because there is pretty much a consensus on the major issues... You wont find anyone saying that its ok to take interest on loans for example... and these are the things that are needed to run a state not how many times one should say Allahu Akbar in prayers which have nothing to do with the functioning of the state rather have to do with personal matters... most of the difference of opinion is in those issues... the State has nothing to do with those issues...

I am trying to gauge what exactly your agenda stands for from a tangible POV, because honestly all I see right now is just 'feel good' rhetoric, and therefore please try and answer the following question:

Barring the use of interest in the economy, what part of the US constitution do you disagree with? Would you agree to a Pakistani constitution largely identical to the US one, with the 'States' exchanged for 'Provinces'?

I agree without a party it is all talk... and I believe that the Liberation Party is going to achieve this aim... It is penetrating society and corridors of influence at multiple levels in Pakistan and some other countries... people doubt this party because they dont contest elections and work in a particular method which is different from the rest of the political parties... I wish that we could have multiple parties pushing for this goal... but for now we have few choices...

Why is the 'Liberation Party' not registered as a political party in Pakistan and participating in elections and debates on its platform? Or is it and I just have never heard of it till you mentioned it?

Mayoosi is Kufr... so no one is going to lose heart on this issue inshaAllah... it only requires people to be convinced of the noble goal...

Please stop with this labeling of 'X is Kufr, Y is Kufr', Allah has set up the day of judgement for a reason, and only He knows the hearts of mankind. Let people use their minds as they wish.

Threatening people with 'eternal damnation' for thinking in a particular manner is not really a very good way to 'motivate' or 'change minds'. Convincing arguments and tangible policy solutions that people can support and work towards are far better.

 

[VCheng]

Threatening people with 'eternal damnation' for thinking in a particular manner is not really a very good way to 'motivate' or 'change minds'. Convincing arguments and tangible policy solutions that people can support and work towards are far better.

Those are words of wisdom indeed.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Accountability is an important aspect in Islam. This is why so many people shy away from Islamic Law. If implemented, so many people will be brought to justice; those who stole money (regardless of the amount), those who took and paid interest and those who take and pay bribes to get their job done among many others.

I don't really understand this argument.

Is theft, bribery, corruption allowed under the laws we have today in Pakistan, or for that matter in the US under a 'secular' constitution?

Why would these things be punished under 'Islamic Law' alone, when they are also illegal under current law?

The issue is ALWAYS, implementation & enforcement of laws, not whether they are Islamic or Secular. Unless there is some 'magical' way to select/elect individuals who will govern honestly and allow Law Enforcement, Prosecution and Judicial institutions to function autonomously and fairly, it really does not matter what label system you have - Islamic, Secular or our current 'hybrid'.

Therefore the issue is not 'Islamic System' or "Islamic Laws', but the more mundane procedural changes we need in the existing system to make the election commission more independent and fair so all parties and voters can trust it and trust the results of elections.

Procedural changes in the manner of appointment of people running the Law Enforcement Agencies, so that the appointments are bipartisan and the organizations can run independent of political interference. The same with the judiciary (on which we have in fact accomplished a great deal, though not without a lot of kicking and screaming by the PPP and Zardari), and the same with the IB, FIA, ISI, Army, Navy, PAF etc.

 

[RazorMC]

Agreed; Implementation is of tremendous importance.
But Islamic Law is different in its indictment. The punishment is severe enough to dissuade many would-be criminals.
Our laws could be changed by a majority vote in the Assembly, something which is not possible with Islamic Law. It applies to everyone and not just the weak and the poor. The NRO is one example; giving pardon to those who commited gross crimes. Interior Minister Rehman Malik himself got a pardon when he came under fire for past cases against him.

The second part of your post about the elction commission is absolutely right. An independent Commission is crucial to protect us from another fraudulent sham which will give us yet another five years of misery.

My position is still the same; Any system that can ensure justice and social well-being will have my full support.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I am trying to gauge what exactly your agenda stands for from a tangible POV, because honestly all I see right now is just 'feel good' rhetoric, and therefore please try and answer the following question:

Barring the use of interest in the economy, what part of the US constitution do you disagree with? Would you agree to a Pakistani constitution largely identical to the US one, with the 'States' exchanged for 'Provinces'?

Why is the 'Liberation Party' not registered as a political party in Pakistan and participating in elections and debates on its platform? Or is it and I just have never heard of it till you mentioned it?

Please stop with this labeling of 'X is Kufr, Y is Kufr', Allah has set up the day of judgement for a reason, and only He knows the hearts of mankind. Let people use their minds as they wish.

Threatening people with 'eternal damnation' for thinking in a particular manner is not really a very good way to 'motivate' or 'change minds'. Convincing arguments and tangible policy solutions that people can support and work towards are far better.

My agenda here from a practical point of view is to prepare people and generate opinion... As I understand there are professionals of Pak Army contributing to this forum... I have a basic interest in military technology and so enjoy reading posts about weapons and specially fighter jets... BUT the biggest of all military will ultimately fail to achieve anything unless it is guided by a true ideology... Look at the USSR and the USA...

I find you admire the USA quite a bit... I dont hold that against you... I know there is much to be admired about the US... but there is also a lot that is repulsive... may God never let our Army get involved in something like Abu Gharaib and the other regular atrocities that we hear about related the United States military...

When you go down to the law/constitution... without going into a lot of details, you need to consider this... US constitution is a man made document... it is not sanctioned by God... even if it includes something that is similar to Islam, it is still not Islam... the very reference is wrong... what use do we have for the founding fathers of the United States... we are not the United States... we dont share their land, history, culture, aspirations in life... why should we even bother to look at them in anything other than their scientific and some of their artistic achievements??

Yaar Agnos... The liberation party poor people were banned by Musharaf... without any proof against them, they were labelled as terrorists... you are talking about them getting registered... Oh please... just recently, they wanted to present their challenge to the banning when the judge delayed the proceedings for another month... this has been going on for more than five years now... its amazing that our courts (which some uptil recently were calling "free courts") delay a case related to their own people for five years but provide instant "justice" to Raymond Davis...

Finally... and please... learn to call a spade a spade... You are a Muslim that means that those who do not believe in God and Muhammad saw are NOT... this is nt a hippie festival meray bhai where everything goes... ask for a reference... I ll always give you one inshaAllah...

For the reference of Mayoosi (losing all hope) being Kufr... check out the following...

AL - QURAAN "ALLAH Ki Rehmat Se Mayoos Na Ho, Uski Rehmat Se To Bas Kaafir Hi Mayoos Huwa Krte Hain." ... (Surah:Yousuf Ayat :78)