Starting April, Indian Navy to induct 4 more P8I Anti-Submarine Aircrafts and order 6 more

[Smarana Mitra]

Only your assumptions those could be communication sensors that article is talking about

Communications don't use sensors. They use antennae and receiver for communications. The sensors are which can sense inputs through reflections or other means, not antennae or receiver

 

[INDIAPOSITIVE]

Indian Navy Could Get Advanced U.S. Tech Earlier Denied
With New P-8I Deal

The Indian Navy’s Boeing P-8I long range maritime reconnaissance & anti-submarine aircraft could be fitted with a list of crucial U.S. technologies that had earlier been held back by the United States owing to the absence of a necessary bilateral agreement. Well, theoretically. It all depends on whether the Indian Navy wants it.

First, some background.

The Indian Navy contracted for eight P-8I jets in January 2009, at which time India wasn’t yet a signatory to the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA), resulting in a large list of sensitive proprietary systems being held off the Indian planes. Four additional P-8I jets ordered by the Indian Navy in 2016, which begin delivery in April this year, will similarly be without the U.S. proprietary tech. In 2018, after over a decade in discussion, India and the United States finally signed the COMCASA, for the first time paving the way for U.S. high-end secured/encrypted communication equipment on American platforms supplied.

The 9th P-8I for the Indian Navy seen here under construction months ago

A year after the facilitation framework of the COMCASA kicked into action, the Indian MoD in November last year cleared the Indian Navy to contract for six more P-8Is. This new deal, currently being negotiated between India and the U.S. Government, will be the first U.S.-India aircraft contract under the new COMCASA regime. Livefist can confirm that while certain software changes have been asked for on the new jets, the Indian Navy hasn’t taken a decision yet on whether it wishes to consider the items held back by the US Government earlier. The Indian MoD is also keen to keep cost contours on par with the previous P-8I deals, and that could slow progress towards a contract.

If India manages to negotiate a 6 P-8I contract that includes U.S. equipment held back on the first 12 P-8Is, it would be reasonable to assume that India will be looking to get the earlier aircraft retrofitted with the said systems to maintain commonality. As things stand, the Indian Navy will likely be looking to contract the P-8Is without the said U.S. equipment — and staying with the Indian equipment earlier contracted in replacement. The original 8 P-8Is, as Livefist first detailed here, were integrated with Indian-made replacement systems for encrypted voice, IFF and advanced secret communication equipment. This diagram provides a clear picture of the kinds of systems held off the pre-COMCASA P-8Is and per force replaced with Indian systems.

What’s crucial is that the items earlier held back are now available in case the Indian Navy wants to get them — the U.S. Government has also conveyed that such equipment would go a way towards true communications interoperability. Should that situation arise, the Indian Navy will be looking to choose from a list of 5 pieces of equipment that includes (or similar to) the AN/ARC-222 Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS) manufacured by Magnovox and administered by the US Air Force, KV-119 IFF Digital Transponder (Mode 4 Crypto Applique) manufactured by Raytheon, TACTERM/ANDVT Secure Voice (HF) Terminal, VINSON KY-58 Secure Voice (UHF/VHF) Module and the Rockwell-Collins AN/ARC-210(V) SATCOM Transceiver’s COMSEC/DAMA embdedded RT.

The SINCGARS, for instance, is a combat net radio deployed by the US military for encrypted voice and data communications. The KV-119 is a highly evolved Identify Friend/Foe transponder. The ANDVT is a secure voice terminal for low bandwidth secure voice communications in use throughout the US military. The VINSON KY-58 is a secure voice module that involves encrypted communication to and from military aircraft and other vehicles. The AN/ARC-210 is a family of radios for military aircraft that provides two-way voice and data communications across modes. These or pieces of equipment similar to these were also held off the Indian Air Force’s C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft.

Indian Navy P-8I in Qatar in 2019 for the ‘Roar Of The Sea’ exercise

Barring any additions and software tweaks, the new P-8Is being negotiated will be identical to the ones in service with the Indian Navy, sporting the Raytheon AN/APY-10 primary radar and L-3 Communications Wescam MX-20HD digital electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) multispectral sensor turret, and two sensors absent on the US Navy’s P-8As that were specifically asked for by the Indian Navy — the Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and CAE AN/ASQ 508A magnetic anomaly detector.

The Indian Navy’s ninth P-8I will be delivered in April this year, with three more to arrive next year. While home base will remain Arakkonam on India’s east coast, work has begun to give the Indian Navy the flexibility to base the aircraft in Goa and Port Blair. The deal for six more aircraft could be signed by the end of this year, though it could take longer.



https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...-get-advanced-u-s-tech-earlier-held-back.html

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Indian Navy Could Get Advanced U.S. Tech Earlier Denied
With New P-8I Deal

The Indian Navy’s Boeing P-8I long range maritime reconnaissance & anti-submarine aircraft could be fitted with a list of crucial U.S. technologies that had earlier been held back by the United States owing to the absence of a necessary bilateral agreement. Well, theoretically. It all depends on whether the Indian Navy wants it.

First, some background.

The Indian Navy contracted for eight P-8I jets in January 2009, at which time India wasn’t yet a signatory to the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA), resulting in a large list of sensitive proprietary systems being held off the Indian planes. Four additional P-8I jets ordered by the Indian Navy in 2016, which begin delivery in April this year, will similarly be without the U.S. proprietary tech. In 2018, after over a decade in discussion, India and the United States finally signed the COMCASA, for the first time paving the way for U.S. high-end secured/encrypted communication equipment on American platforms supplied.

The 9th P-8I for the Indian Navy seen here under construction months ago

A year after the facilitation framework of the COMCASA kicked into action, the Indian MoD in November last year cleared the Indian Navy to contract for six more P-8Is. This new deal, currently being negotiated between India and the U.S. Government, will be the first U.S.-India aircraft contract under the new COMCASA regime. Livefist can confirm that while certain software changes have been asked for on the new jets, the Indian Navy hasn’t taken a decision yet on whether it wishes to consider the items held back by the US Government earlier. The Indian MoD is also keen to keep cost contours on par with the previous P-8I deals, and that could slow progress towards a contract.

If India manages to negotiate a 6 P-8I contract that includes U.S. equipment held back on the first 12 P-8Is, it would be reasonable to assume that India will be looking to get the earlier aircraft retrofitted with the said systems to maintain commonality. As things stand, the Indian Navy will likely be looking to contract the P-8Is without the said U.S. equipment — and staying with the Indian equipment earlier contracted in replacement. The original 8 P-8Is, as Livefist first detailed here, were integrated with Indian-made replacement systems for encrypted voice, IFF and advanced secret communication equipment. This diagram provides a clear picture of the kinds of systems held off the pre-COMCASA P-8Is and per force replaced with Indian systems.

What’s crucial is that the items earlier held back are now available in case the Indian Navy wants to get them — the U.S. Government has also conveyed that such equipment would go a way towards true communications interoperability. Should that situation arise, the Indian Navy will be looking to choose from a list of 5 pieces of equipment that includes (or similar to) the AN/ARC-222 Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS) manufacured by Magnovox and administered by the US Air Force, KV-119 IFF Digital Transponder (Mode 4 Crypto Applique) manufactured by Raytheon, TACTERM/ANDVT Secure Voice (HF) Terminal, VINSON KY-58 Secure Voice (UHF/VHF) Module and the Rockwell-Collins AN/ARC-210(V) SATCOM Transceiver’s COMSEC/DAMA embdedded RT.

The SINCGARS, for instance, is a combat net radio deployed by the US military for encrypted voice and data communications. The KV-119 is a highly evolved Identify Friend/Foe transponder. The ANDVT is a secure voice terminal for low bandwidth secure voice communications in use throughout the US military. The VINSON KY-58 is a secure voice module that involves encrypted communication to and from military aircraft and other vehicles. The AN/ARC-210 is a family of radios for military aircraft that provides two-way voice and data communications across modes. These or pieces of equipment similar to these were also held off the Indian Air Force’s C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft.

Indian Navy P-8I in Qatar in 2019 for the ‘Roar Of The Sea’ exercise

Barring any additions and software tweaks, the new P-8Is being negotiated will be identical to the ones in service with the Indian Navy, sporting the Raytheon AN/APY-10 primary radar and L-3 Communications Wescam MX-20HD digital electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) multispectral sensor turret, and two sensors absent on the US Navy’s P-8As that were specifically asked for by the Indian Navy — the Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and CAE AN/ASQ 508A magnetic anomaly detector.

The Indian Navy’s ninth P-8I will be delivered in April this year, with three more to arrive next year. While home base will remain Arakkonam on India’s east coast, work has begun to give the Indian Navy the flexibility to base the aircraft in Goa and Port Blair. The deal for six more aircraft could be signed by the end of this year, though it could take longer.



https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...-get-advanced-u-s-tech-earlier-held-back.html

India will never buy USA equipments which use USA encryption keys as that can be used for snooping. India only signed the agreement to have a provision of buying or using it in case of necessity during joint operations but will not use until there is a requirement to do so. As far as possible, India will try to avoid any form of USA encrypted equipments

 

[Shah_Deu]

Which one more will we buy? U 219?

Now when we have chosen the S20, I think we should stick with it to reduce the operational costs of operating diverse models. The U boats of germans are undoubtedly much stealthier though.

What about International Waters? P8I can detect our subs when they are in International Waters?

Yes they can detect submarines in blue waters too but it not that easy to find a submarine when it is submerged whether it is the bluewaters or littorals. It is like finding a needle in a haystack. Which means much longer loitering times in air and thus increases their chances of getting detectedby enemy AWACS and thus their susceptibility to the enemy

13+?? 8 Hangor, 3 90Bs and??

Though really old, the Agosta 70s are still officially active.

We should order another 9 not 6.
That way we will have for every Pak Sub, two MH-60R and two P-8I.
More than sufficient to neutralize them.

MH-60Rs would be operating from some ships, right? Once the mother ship is gone, the heli crew could start reciting the final prayers!

India will never buy USA equipments which use USA encryption keys as that can be used for snooping.

India makes the sensors of P8I as USA refused to share that technology. India does not trust USA with critical technology in electronics as there is always a possibility of USA keeping a bug or kill switch. Only the plane is USA made and all the important electronics are made by BEL.

Basically thats what you are doing, buying off the shelf. All the sensors are integrated by the OEM with the management software communicating with all. Had changing sensors been all that easy, you would be having the Elta Radars in Tejass communicate with Meteors! All these Indian sensors bullshit doesnt make any sense. A P8 without sensors is just a 737-800ERX and nothing more! So either you are buying the Boeing P8i's or the Boeing 737's. So stop blabbering and take your Gangu logics to Arnab Goswami's Debates.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Basically thats what you are doing, buying off the shelf. All the sensors are integrated by the OEM with the management software communicating with all. Had changing sensors been all that easy, you would be having the Elta Radars in Tejass communicate with Meteros! All these Indian sensors bullshit doesnt make any sense. A P8 without sensors is a modified 737-800ERX and nothing more! So either you are buying the Boeing P8i's or the Boeing 737's. So stop blabbering and take your Gangu logics to Arnab Goswami's Debates.

India only buys those sensors for which India can verify the codes. this means off the shelf generic ones only, not high end ones which are encrypted

India bought ELTA radar for Tejas MK1 because the communication codes were non encrypted and India could verify it. Moreover, these are limited production planes without much future. Only 40 MK1A will be made. Remaining will have UTTAM radar. So, it was only a temporary measure and that too where India was sure of the communications system being non compromised. Similarly, India is mostly buying P8I with Indian sensors and only limited USA equipments which are generic enough to not have any encrypted communications.

 

[Daghalodi]

India only buys those sensors for which India can verify the codes. this means off the shelf generic ones only, not high end ones which are encrypted

India bought ELTA radar for Tejas MK1 because the communication codes were non encrypted and India could verify it. Moreover, these are limited production planes without much future. Only 40 MK1A will be made. Remaining will have UTTAM radar. So, it was only a temporary measure and that too where India was sure of the communications system being non compromised. Similarly, India is mostly buying P8I with Indian sensors and only limited USA equipments which are generic enough to not have any encrypted communications.

Well how do we know Indian Navy is buying off the shelf generic ones with no source codes or encrypted codes as you want us to believe.

As far as this goes you are only making baseless assumptions

 

[waqasmwi]

It's time for Pakistan to stop trying to match herself with India conventionally. Pakistan can't get even close to India militarily. Focus on welfare of Pakistanis.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Well how do we know Indian Navy is buying off the shelf generic ones with no source codes or encrypted codes as you want us to believe.

As far as this goes you are only making baseless assumptions

Can you name which item Indian navy uses which is critical electronics? The only one I see is MFSTAR AESA radar. Even then, the hardware is imported but software is Indian. India has not yet developed AESA and hence are using it for the time being. I don't really see any other critical imported item which India uses

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

From where i stand there is no difference between the two . Both can be considered same force now in 2020.

Why? Is Pakistan going to become a province of China.?

 

[Zapper]

so only communication system for P-8I not a major sensor package like sonoboays/MAD senors, anyway thanks

 

[Zapper]

• By the time you have all of these 18 P8Is, PN would be operating a 13+ submarine force. So calculate the resources allocation for each sub yourself.
• Maritime reconnaissance aircraft are a force multiplier only when you have air superiority in that sector (which right now is no more than a wet-dream for IAF). Otherwise they are all sitting ducks. That is the reason no other blue water navy operates them in numbers apart from US.
• The same is the case with aircraft carriers and destroyers. A salvo of C802s to overwhelm the point defences and its a dead fish. I doubt in a serious conflict all the surface combatant force would even be brave enough to leave the port.
• We dont have to get diverted from all these expensive toys of our neighbour. We should look at all these toys are prospective and juicy targets while continuiung to do what we are already doing and need to focus even more on raising a potent submarine force to dilute the IN resources and more JF-17 Blk 3s with AShMs and PL-15s. The rest is all secondary.

Yeah, no wonder the Yankees, daddy China, the Brits, Japs, and others are investing in AC's and HC's. China is building it's 3rd and is bound to build more. US has invested a ton of money to phase out the Nimitz class and to develop the Gerald R Ford class carriers with the latest USS John F. Kennedy (CVN 79) AC to begin sea-trials next year with 3 more scheduled. Infact, pak also aspired to have an AC but it's dire economy proved they're all wet dreams

US has always deployed BCG's or surface vessels in the gulf or waters challenged by China/Russia as a show of strength - per your logic, they could be taken out by cheap Chinese or Russian missiles right!! China is on a building spree in terms of constructing surface vessels with it's latest Type 055 Nanchang class destroyer at 12k tons displacement which per your logic could much easily be taken down by missile salvos than traditional sized destroyers at 7-8.5k tons

If your economy ever supported, y'all would be ready to jump in for such big ticket purchases. You are clearly unaware of how warfare works and only tryna soothe your nerves that any naval platform could be taken by drone swarms or missile salvos. If that's the case, blue water navies across the world wouldn't be investing billions of $$$$ in transforming into formidable naval forces

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Yeah, no wonder the Yankees, daddy China, the Brits, Japs, and others are investing in AC's and HC's. China is building it's 3rd and is bound to build more. US has invested a ton of money to phase out the Nimitz class and to develop the Gerald R Ford class carriers with the latest USS John F. Kennedy (CVN 79) AC to begin sea-trials next year with 3 more scheduled. Infact, pak also aspired to have an AC but it's dire economy proved they're all wet dreams

US has always deployed BCG's or surface vessels in the gulf or waters challenged by China/Russia as a show of strength - per your logic, they could be taken out by cheap Chinese or Russian missiles right!! China is on a building spree in terms of constructing surface vessels with it's latest Type 055 Nanchang class destroyer at 12k tons displacement which per your logic could much easily be taken down by missile salvos than traditional sized destroyers at 7-8.5k tons

If your economy ever supported, y'all would be ready to jump in for such big ticket purchases. You are clearly unaware of how warfare works and only tryna soothe your nerves that any naval platform could be taken by drone swarms or missile salvos. If that's the case, blue water navies across the world wouldn't be investing billions of $$$$ in transforming into formidable naval forces

helicopter carriers are a genuine waste. Aircraft carriers on the other hand are like a floating airbase and very important to control the sea using airborne assets

 

[Shah_Deu]

Yeah, no wonder the Yankees, daddy China, the Brits, Japs, and others are investing in AC's and HC's. China is building it's 3rd and is bound to build more. US has invested a ton of money to phase out the Nimitz class and to develop the Gerald R Ford class carriers with the latest USS John F. Kennedy (CVN 79) AC to begin sea-trials next year with 3 more scheduled. Infact, pak also aspired to have an AC but it's dire economy proved they're all wet dreams

Either you are dumb or trying hard to be. Anyhow, what you have written above is just BS in short. Comparing yourself with the US would never help you without possessing the assets what the US possesses!

• Apart from the US, China and Russia (Not counting Brits, Japs as they are dependent on US for their hegemony), no other force can create a total air superiority over others over a land theater. In Naval theater, its only US who can create air superiority over the seas by using its numerous forwards bases and carrier battle groups. For air superiority one needs not only quality but that too in quantity. Even China is not at that stage. Now you know why i called you dumb, don't ever compare yourself with the US. Its like sometimes not all wishes come true.

• Pak doesnt need an AC Carrier (I hope your source is not Arnab Goswami). With our relatively small shoreline, it doesn't suit our plans at all. Even if our economy supported, investing in an aircraft carrier is foolishness until one is US with all its carrier battle groups and hundreds of jets places all over the world. Again examplifying US as a standard criteria for Gangudesh won't help you.

helicopter carriers are a genuine waste. Aircraft carriers on the other hand are like a floating airbase and very important to control the sea using airborne assets

First make your primary air arm (Airforce) so strong that you could avoid the 27th Feb like scenarios, then talk about controlling the air above seas using your secondary air arm (Navy Airforce) from AC carriers. Air Superiority over the seas without creating one over mainland is only possible in Bollywood movies and only a Gangu like you can explain it.

 

[Zapper]

Apart from the US, China and Russia (Not counting Brits, Japs as they are dependent on US for their hegemony), no other force can create a total air superiority over others over a land theater. In Naval theater, its only US who can create air superiority over the seas by using its numerous forwards bases and carrier battle groups. For air superiority one needs not only quality but that too in quantity. Even China is not at that stage. Now you know why i called you dumb, don't ever compare yourself with the US. Its like sometimes not all wishes come true.

You can diss at me all day you want but we have enough air-power to guard both our eastern and western sea-boards. I did not compare ourselves to the US but if US has enough power projection to maintain air-superiority in a hostile nation's conflicted air-space, we could do the same in our own. Infact, US BCG's and surface vessels in South China sea or Russian contested waters don't have enough air-cover except for jets on their decks which could very well be overwhelmed with Russia or Chinese fighters in numbers.

In this case, we don't intend to project power elsewhere but only to defend our waters/skies. IN has only 2 carriers which has enough support systems in place to defend em

Pak doesnt need an AC Carrier (I hope your source is not Arnab Goswami). With our relatively small shoreline, it doesn't suit our plans at all. Even if our economy supported, investing in an aircraft carrier is foolishness until one is US with all its carrier battle groups and hundreds of jets places all over the world. Again examplifying US as a standard criteria for Gangudesh won't help you.

Why'd y'all always assume any news that doesn't suit your narrative is from an Indian source? Only shows your ignorance

https://nation.com.pk/10-Feb-2019/china-to-sell-aircraft-carrier-to-pakistan

https://timesofislamabad.com/07-Feb...raft-carrier-to-compete-india-in-indian-ocean

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...-to-sell-an-aircraft-carrier-to-pakistan.html

 

[Smarana Mitra]

First make your primary air arm (Airforce) so strong that you could avoid the 27th Feb like scenarios, then talk about controlling the air above seas using your secondary air arm (Navy Airforce) from AC carriers. Air Superiority over the seas without creating one over mainland is only possible in Bollywood movies and only a Gangu like you can explain it.

I don't think you understand the meaning of operational preparedness. India only wants to have basic technology and enough planes to deter and fight against any misadventures. But the intention of dominating is not yet there. India and the international community don't want Pakistan to panic and then launch suicide attack as that will destabilize middle East oil supply. So, effort is only to ensure operational preparedness.

But aircraft carrier and other major assets take tie to build and design. Hence they need to be done in advance. Also, these are required only in limited number and hence even making 2-3 of them will appear major achievement. But these are needed as a means if Technology acquisition. They are meant to learn technology and be more ready to build any in short notice.

When one is really preparing for war, the intention will change from operational preparedness to domination. Then you will see real build up. What you are seeing now is only Technology demonstrator projects only to demonstrate.