Split Discussion: Muhajir Identity

[truthseer]

You mean I should inform Bhai? [j/k]

On second thoughts, bhai's 'people' live in my street. Perhaps I shouldn't say anything.

Anyways, since people here will bring MQM into this, I'll just post something I posted on another forum. It's the history of how the MQM came

On the request of @Superkaif, I decided to make this thread. I realise that some of you are unaware of the reasons behind the formation of MQM. I'm throwing out a disclaimer here that this is not about the history after 1990 and I don't support any action of MQM after that period. I am talking about the period before that and the reasons why the people of Karachi support this party. I would also like to thank @S.Y.A for enlightening me on some of the points.

Background
This extends to well before the APMSO or MQM came into being. However, this explains a lot of things. Let's start with the elections in 1965. Fatima Jinnah was beaten in an election that many called unfair. What happened after this is important. There were many protests and then Gohar Ayub took out a victory rally through Laloo Khet, an area where Fatima Jinnah was supported. The Pakhtoons he brought in were used to kill many Urdu Speaking people who supported Fatimah Jinnah. This led to riots, and eventually Ayub Khan had to resign. After this, Bhutto was elected to power. This incident is the start of the MQM for many.

What happens next is that Bhutto came to power, after the separation of East Pakistan. Many in Karachi went to protest. Now a famous incident of Gohar's work was that he dragged a girl around town with a Sandal around her neck calling her, "Madar-e-Millat", as an insult to Fatimah Jinnah. Many called on Bhutto to take action against him and some people told him this with sandals in their hands.

This infuriated Bhutto and he used the FSF on the people. Symbolically, Bhutto replaced the attacks on some people with sticks, with attacks with guns. Therefore, this problem grew greater and greater, until once again rumors of rigging led to mass protests and another change came in. However, this next phase officially marks the start of the MQM.

History
Altaf Hussain and his class mates protested against the quota system by burning their examination papers and the APMSO was born. Just then, there are still allegations that he burnt the flag. I personally don't believe them but if you consider the past 20 years of history up to that point, I wouldn't blame him if it were true.

In response, there was now a new massacre, the Aligarh colony massacre. Women were raped, children killed and an entire colony decimated. The same was repeated at the Qasba colony. Altaf Hussain called a mass meeting and announced that he would take on the Pakhtoons who did this. Sadly, it led to, as usual, mass killing of a race instead of the targets. Zia Ul Haq supported the MQM at this point, for obvious reasons.

1. The Pakhtoons supported the PPP and Bhutto
2. The people were being slaughtered for no reason.

Therefore, armed well, MQM took on the Pashtuns and called for their removal from Karachi. This led to more and more killings until Benazir returned.

A short word about the army operation that Ms.Bhutto then made. It was not fair, it was not good. It was done because the people did not support PPP. It is on record that many civilians were killed just for being Muhajirs.

Conclusion

What happened till the 90's is just a travesty of justice and it is hoped this will never happen. However, this does NOT excuse the Bhatta Khori of today but it explains it. MQM is a reactionary party to a violent event which turned into a political one. It may not be perfect but past events show why Karachi votes for them.

Massacres take years to forget and the last one was under 20 years ago. Is it a surprise that people still vote MQM?

The nation must take responsibility for what happened over that time. That is the way to progress.

Again, just to address what the talking points are going to be. It happened, that's why people vote MQM. However, should we just break away from everyone because a massacre happened? A worse one happened in India when we were coming here. Yet, I see us hailing a person who thinks that the division was a blunder. For a community which is highly educated, why can't we see past the ethnic bias? It's unbelievable. Even now, many people call the Chief Justice a Punjabi who is attacking our community. How can we not know that he's not even from that province? How can we not see the contempt of court that man did? How can we hail him for apologising when he actually made the mistake?

That's something I can give only one answer to, "We are racist! We are just as racist as those we claim to be defending ourselves from."

That's the truth and the sooner we get over this complex that we have, that we created Pakistan and are, therefore, supposed to be privileged, the sooner we can start helping the people from other provinces as well. And then, who knows, we can make Pakistan a strong country. After all, we are the most educated community, we have influence, we have power, if we use it, we can make it happen. But will we? That's the question

This post is mostly for the MQM supporters here who will come in

 

[EagleEyes]

Open on request of @haviZsultan

 

[haviZsultan]

Open on request of @haviZsultan

Deep thanks to you. I am genuinely pleased by the offer.
I believe it is time for PDF to become more than a place of discussion... that aspect should remain but the largest site on Pakistani affairs could seriously become a very solid think-tank that could publish reports and advise the government on major issues. Really glad how this site has prospered over time.

 

[S_O_C_O_M]

Just an observation. Punjab faced THE worst of partition yet Muhajirs who migrated from Indian Punjab to Pak Punjab are never discussed and appreciated in mainstream.

Because they are of the SAME ethnic race as those of Pak Punjab who did not migrate.

The whole point of being called a Mujhair is of ethnic individuality.

Its extremely stupid.

Technically everybody in the United States is Mujhair. But nobody gives a **** because everybody is edcuated and U.S. is a developed nation. Only third world countries such as Pakistan/Afghanistan and rest of Middle East care for this because these people uneducated, have no sense of purpose in this world so the only thing they can thrive on this their ethnic race and what "their race" has accomplished. Whereas Chinese, American, Russians unite under the banner of their national flag and say we as a nation did this as one.

 

[haviZsultan]

Continuing on the same topic, there is no Muhajir culture, there is no Muhajir unity. It's a sham used to get votes. There were massacres over 20-30 years ago, I admit. However, it's time we put it behind us and vote in the best interests of Pakistan. Ironically, the only province to have done that so far is the one that's denied everything, the Balochis

True. I stated the exact same point in post 5. Very similar views here.

Balochistan's ethnic composition of 40% Baloch and 40% Pashtun (I am qouting the most highly acclaimed source because various interest groups put the demographic composition differently) makes it difficult for any party doing politics on the basis of ethnicity to come into power. PMAP has limited success and remains constricted to the north in Zhob and Shirani with some power in Quetta (even here they don’t have a majority. Have noted that a few Shiranis (Pashtun tribe) vote for him but historically they haven't usually even received 1% of the vote most of the time and even shirani district voted for JI candidate. However BNP has gained 6% of the vote in the last elections which is miniscule but gives them some seats. However it is necessary to understand what the various parties want. BNP has never stated it wants to secede from Pakistan but seeks autonomy and Baloch rights.

BSO-A on the other hand wants complete freedom from Pakistan-its activists are the ones usually being kidnapped and dumped though the lines often blur because many BSO-A members have direct contact with BRA, BLA and BLF which are militant groups fighting a war. But thats another topic but perhaps proves that when there are many ethnicities in one area, contact with each other makes them less likely to elect people on the basis of ethnicity. There is no real information to corroborate this such as surveys and reports upon which I regularly rely.

im routing for PTI, but im not so sure because the IQ of their internet fans and the dynamics of PTI, their politics i dont really see any difference at all

I doubt you are rooting for PTI. You have no objectivity and basically you never say a word against MQM. I gave you statistics, information from charts and everything. Even I condemn PTI when something is wrong-there were reports of 2 maseeds being caught collecting Bhatta and were in PTI, I highlight these issues and condemn them because I want to make the party better.

But as far as MQM supporters are concerned a word against MQM and Muhajir mentality which drives them and its the dhar dhar of Kalashnikovs which is heard for days. Its unfortunate how you blame everyone else without looking at yourself. The entire country is changing man... people are developing objectivity and self-criticism as tools to address mistakes but you guys don't want to address anything. It is in your interest that the ethnic issue continue for decades.

Please don't lump us all with the Urdu Speaking people, that's a majority, but there are others.

Sadly, all Muhajirs are seen as Urdu Speaking MQM supporters who support the Bhatta Mafia and other killings

I think the issue is with this term. In fact both terms-the urdu-speaker one and the muhajir one are wrong. Urdu speaker is not broad enough and there is no logic of calling a Marathi or Gujrati speaker an urdu speaker (which is happening) but personally despite what darkinsky and American Pakistani say I have always heard other Pakistanis call our families urdu-speakers rather than muhajir as any other word is less offensive than a word which means pilgrim for a settled person. Usually they call our families Karachites to be simple and we don't ask their ethnicity and they don't ask ours which is how it should be.

Urdu-speaker though incomplete and perhaps even offensive to a person who does not speak urdu as his mother tongue like you may still be a better option than Muhajir which as far as I see is a term no one else but our family members or other so called muhajirs are keen to maintain.

Did the sikhs and hindus who migrated to India become known as yatrees (pilgrims in their tongue)... then how come migrants started becoming known as Muhajir and to be totally truthful take fakhar in this biased, discriminatory term that reduces them to nomadic pilgrims from eternity? Some people give the logic that they (Sindhis or others) weren't willing to accept them as local Sindhis or others depending on the province they were in. But the question is did we try? Recently I posted this as an example:

How was it forced? These other races are so careful that they never even call our family muhajir. Let me tell you about my conversation. I was talking to a cousin, married now and her hubby not even muhajir. Sadly she learned from her parents. I asked we are in Sindh actually so we are Sindhis aren't we. She says no. I was like why?

She was like "Sindhi toh accept karna hi nahi hai hamein unko..." I ask have you ever tried? Ever talked to a Sindhi before and told him you are a Sindhi and he has said no, get lost u are Indian/. Chup ho gayi.

How we can say the rest weren't willing to accept our families and the people of Sindh didn't want us when we never tried to respect them and looked at everyone else down our noses?



I will give you a simple example. I adopted Pashtun culture and ways and know rudimentary Pashto-but when speaking people can tell i am not Pashto speaker by birth. When I spoke Pashto to driver in Karachi some months ago... he looked at me totally surprised. He was shocked and goes like "talo pashto razi!!!" (You know Pashto?)... he knew how our families were and had been hearing abuse like "tum pathano key paas aqal toh hoti nahi hai" and things like "jahil insaan, gari roko, ismein car-bomb nahi hai jo tum jakay takra do kahim say"... this is basically how our khandaan behaves around non-muhajirs. When I spoke Pashto which was clearly weak I won his respect.



Aap toh bulkul hamaray tarah pathan hai, aap ney hamara dil jeet liya.... He said smiling. Now he always treats me with total reverence. If we show respect and goodwill to people they will respect us. Simple as that. In moments I became a Pashtun despite my comparitively pathetic Pashto but we don't have this kind of mentality. One day he comes by and gifts about 20-30 books on Pashto language and literature which must have cost him at least 1000-2000 rupees when he is earning about 12,000 monthly. I wanted to give him money but he refused. He promised me support for the Pakistan Nationalist party which unfortunately isn't in existence yet but is a personal dream. This is how you unite people. By being a racist you divide and create ill-will between communities and even on this thread you see it... one abusive comment to an ethnic group and you set off a war. Think how easy it is to do the same.



By challenging a number of people who have that kind of divisive mindset I sought to create an impression while conducting research for my paper. It was the best way to debate and my knowledge in this regard has expanded.


People misunderstand these beautiful people, these Pashtuns for years now and I have no clue how to stop it. All the bad jokes are on them... we associate them with negative influences like Naswar. Pretty sad and this is what I personally experienced, a Pashtun spending his 1/5th and 1/6th of his salary for me.

Never has anyone ever physically told me that I have no right to call myself Pashtun excluding the e-afghans and their backers who only seem to exist in the world of the internet. My point here is did we ever even try to build bridges with the local communities or did we always feel different and wanted to maintain a separate identity?

I respect both your and @Secur's decision to remain Muhajirs as is proven by these posts though what I am stating is that it is a biased term and the real ethnic identification is basically Bihari, Hyderabadi, Deccan, Lucknowite, Kakorite, Madrasite. Did the Indians who migrated become yatrees/muhajirs? As I stated in post 5 Muhajirs is a collective term for migrants who have few cultural links to each other, probably the same links a Punjabi has to a lucknowite like me so why should I look down at Punjabis or others when I can unite with other ethnic groups so different from me? Both Luffy and @STEELMAN from India have admitted to these differences on this thread too.

I believe and hope you will be willing to abandon the identity-I say this because of the potential of its misuse by MQM thugs and Altaf. Honestly his partition speech sets my hair on fire... makes me wonder can it happen again, terrifies me? And sometimes I think it can because Muhajirs are at the top in Pakistan and have a GDP per capita of Rs 13000 higher than the ethnic group that comes second-the punjabis and almost 30,000 higher than Balochs who are at the bottom in a preliminary report by H&H research group. 30% of the directors for radio Pakistan are urdu-speakers... so the issue is if our families are going to fall for this mentality and ethnic chauvinism then the reaction from other races could be worse.

And people don’t appreciate when someone else says it as he immediately becomes racist. Ghous Ali Shah on a program with Talat said that the Pashtuns are coming to Karachi are also muhajirs, the sindhis going to Punjab are also muhajirs... if some movement from one place can make you muhajir then all of us are muhajir. Lol. That set my communities hair on fair... the cry that his claim was anti-Muhajir was the only thing we heard for days. Personally I back him despite being a born muhajir.

We must make efforts for unity. It is an honour to have found people like you, Secur and GIANTsasquatch in my search. I sometimes thought that maybe if one day I hosted a political party it would have no chance in Karachi because of my anti-MQM views. But you guys have proven that wrong. Some of your posts deserve double thanks truthseer.

 

[haviZsultan]

I was just trying to reply the author in his own words..no generalization here but no sympathy with MQM walas either!

@Secur is somewhat right. See I am by birth a Muhajir adopting Pashtun culture...

When I say something about Muhajirs despite it being a fake, foolish term imposed on migrants by themselves... which if you look at my comments includes some very negative stuff as well isn't as offensive as the same thing being said by another. That can be used by the MQM blokes to claim there is racism against Muhajirs. With me it becomes extremely difficult to make the same claim.

I respect your views and know Muhajirs today are very intolerant and extremely prejudiced and understand your concerns. But this is how these MQM guys win votes. They will provoke you, involve you in a debate where you say something pretty negative about muhajirs and then use that to regurgitate the muhajirs are oppressed nonsense. Only people from that particular community can fight them. I would like to apologize for the mistakes of our family after they moved to Pakistan. Before that it was all a very romantic struggle for the formation of Pakistan. Hasrat Mohani, Tahir Ul Qadri many other people once stayed with us in our lucknow home. (my family i mean.)

Others visited distant relatives in Hyderabad (though they are close relatives of my father). The downfall you see of these people is fairly recent and proportionate with the rise of the MQM. Karachi was once a clean, beautiful city where crime-especially gun crime was virtually unheard. Personally what you can learn from this is self-criticism for race and ethnicity and not to take those concepts too seriously.

 

[truthseer]

Another misconception that I will clear is that the Armed forces don't take on Karachiites. Partially, this is true because the Armed forces have a minimum height requirement, among other things, that not all of us reach. Genetically speaking, we are a lot shorter than other Pakistanis. However, if you qualify, I know many Karachiites who are working for the army, navy and the Airforce and are Karachiites, a term I will use instead of Muhajir.

You are right about both terms being wrong, @haviZsultan. I was born here, so were my parents. The last generation of Muhajirs are too old to actually support a party and never did support MQM or the Pashtun killing. It's the new generation which has, based on misconceptions.

There is one thing though. I have newspapers that show, that over 30 years ago, there were news advertisements that said, "Karachiites can not apply." That did happen but now we're much more well off than the other races.

Another thing, there is no bias that prevents us from getting into universities. Personally, I'm in NUST, something which is not based in Karachi (In the KHI campus though, again purely my choice, I could have gone to Risalpur or Islamabad). This lie is spread by people who could not get accepted in the universities of their choice.

On this topic, UET Lahore even has special seats so that one can apply directly from Karachi, through NED.

We need a new name though, it is a slightly separate culture. Perhaps something derived from Sindh and the fact that most of us are based in Karachi?

Sindhi Karachiites, maybe?

 

[haviZsultan]

Will reply to some posts, including yours truthseer. Its the volume of replies... and its difficult to answer quickly to everything. I will reply to Chak Bamu first though. Its long overdue.

The thing is that almost 3 decades before Muhajirs were labelled with many derogatory terms, few to mention are bhayya log, panah guzeen, bhokay nangay(still used by some), hindustani,...,etc...& obviously Muhajireen, so we choose the best out of them i.e Muhajirs. It is funny that same people now want us to stop calling ourself the same name they use to tease us with. Why is it so?

American Pakistani I feel living abroad... as I have too for a great deal of my life you would abandon this sense of self-victimization (victim syndrome) especially when there are pressing concerns like the framing of innocent Pakistanis on false terror charges in US and our weak representation of ourselves. But by supporting these traditional political parties we become a part of the issue. We can keep saying its because of what someone else did but that doesn't make it right for us to be reactionaries.

Its no wonder years ago instead of offering proper opposition to Indian Anti-Pakistani political groups in Canada we fell at each others throats on issues like MQM/ANP/PMLN support. Only we, the nationalists stood fast but what can some 200 people do?
Now your post. Sorry for being late. I have been looking to reply to this post for a long time.

Personally I have never met a single non-muhajir who has ever called me by any of the names you mentioned or even Muhajir... even in my old days when I sympathized with MQM. Instead for respect they call us urdu speakers to ensure they don't offend but we (our families) on the other hand are keen to offend (I have given dozens of examples). American Pakistani... has anyone called you any of those 3 terms that or are you relying on the sayings of others like relatives or parents? Also bhai log is something more specific to the MQM rather than Muhajirs. I call MQM people bhai log. lol. Now does it mean if someone insults MQM he is insulting Muhajirs... why it has to set our families bum on fire?

I do not believe there is any case of bias against the Muhajirs. Muhajir has been a term that is there from 47 when families were moving and at that time it was a perfect term that detailed our struggle and our solid belief in the Muslim League. Even Jinnah referred to the families that were moving as Muhajireen but I don't think in his wildest dreams he would have thought that instead of integrating the muhajirs would form a different community. This is what he thought of provincialism (from his historic speech in daka to 500,000+ people)

[[16]] As long as you do not throw off this poison from your body politic, you will never be able to weld yourselves, mould yourselves, galvanize yourselves into a real true nation. What you want is not to talk about Bengalis, Punjabis, Sindhis, Baluchis, Pathans and so on. They are, of course, units; but I ask you, have you forgotten the lesson that was taught to us 1300 years ago? If I may point [it] out, you are all outsiders here. Who were the original inhabitants of Bengal? -- not those who are now living [in it]. So what is the use of saying "We are Bengalis, or Sindhis, or Pathans, or Punjabis"? No, we are Muslims, Islam had taught us this. Here I think you will agree with me that whatever else you may be and whatever you are, you are Muslims. You belong to a nation now. You have now carved out a territory, [a] vast territory, it is all yours. It does not belong to a Punjabi or a Sindhi, or a Pathan or a Bengali, it is yours. You have got your central government where the several units are represented. Therefore, if you want to build up yourselves into a nation, for God's sake give up this provincialism. Provincialism has been one of the curses, and so is sectionalism, Shia, Sunni, etc.

I believe he meant ethnic dogmatism because he had no clue that these migrants would soon for a separate identity for themselves. This is another major address by him:

I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this.

Now these are 2 solid speeches. I am telling if Jinnah was alive he would never have appreciated those who moved using the term muhajir for themselves, something he had used only until these families settled. At that time provincialism was a minor issue... today provincialism remains but communities that do not have a province have become highly assertive. The identity becoming our family/khandaan's identity has to do with our own mindset which we brought when we came from India... we thought that after losing our ancestral homes, losing thousands along the way in the journey and struggling so hard (my grandfather used to go around on a cycle-we were poor as I said) we would later on get it all easy.

Also lets say bias occurred and I hypothetically agree with you American Pakistani. Its still our fault. My bum doesn't hurt if anyone calls me any of those things... u may argue that I defend my adopted race... pashtuns very often. I don't do that as a Pashtun but because I have seen discrimination to them in Karachi. I have provided lots of examples before of this. For one u could look at the one in the last part of post 125.

So basically anyone can go around shifting blame for everything that went wrong or play the victim card but not a lot of people can be objective and take part in some self-reflection. Also its not some people. Its people labelled muhajirs from birth themselves so you can't complain its all due to non-muhajirs.

Also if you think of it its quite senseless and shows a lack of self-respect and insecurity of migrants which makes them bash everyone else for no particular reason other than that they are non-muhajir. Muhajir means pilgrim. Even if it was this "oppression of muhajirs" that led to this any person with self-respect tries to get rid of a label with negative connotations. For example a lot of blacks when they were brought to USA were given last names by their masters such as White, Little and Brown which were discriminatory. Now a great number of them, especially black nationalists groups even wierdo groups like Nation of Islam and Moorish Science Temple are doing everything to get rid of these last names and make fun of them.

But somehow migrants have started taking pride in this identity. Not only that! They have begun to direct their nationalism along the word Muhajir, everything centered around it. But people who support MQM can never question why is it? Its exactly because this wider identity instead of Gujrati, Bihari, Lucknowi makes these leaders powerful and unites totally different ethnicities (these are all ethnicities) but it is impossible for the MQM supporter to understand this as he simply cannot look at anything with objectivity which is what nationalism along ethnic lines does to a person. It has done the same to brilliant people.

Basically this is like saying someone called me a donkey (though in this case its we who called ourselves donkeys all our lives but I am entertaining your thought process) all my life (even if someone calls someone a donkey its usually 1 person out of 500 who disrespect you-but again going by what you said and believing that someone else is to blame) so I am also going to call myself a donkey too. Its no logic. Also it doesn't do justice to the various cultures we brought. I am a lucknowite (I say this proudly despite adopting Pashtun identity and this being a potential means for Luffy to attack me) and our kakori kebabs are famous. Bihari's have bihari kebabs and hyderabadis have this killer haleem. We can unite with these people under a single identity but when it comes to Punjabis or Pashtuns and others we look at them down our noses? Its an attempt to divide me from my countrymen which I will NEVER accept. I tried to explain this to @474474 in the last part when I replied to his comment on Bihari kebabs etc being my culture but I guess sometimes things pass above peoples heads because I am a writer and there is meaning within words. Look at post 5 for further info about how Muhajir isn't an ethnic group according to the dictionary meaning.

MQM('nine zeero' one) means Muttahida Qaumi Movement & MQM(H) means Muhajir Qaumi Movement. Muhajirs Pakistanis from Karachi & Hyderabad & most of them here on PDF support MQM('nine zeero' one) which clearly means United Nation(Pakistan) Movement but most non-Muhajir Pakistanis support MQM(H). So MQM is just like other political parties of Pakistan, yes there are dozens of bad people in it but it has thousand of good peoples too.

P.S I'm first Pakistani(religion my personnal matter) & then Muhajir & American.

Why was it called Muhajir Qaumi Movement when it was hosted? Its just a so-called Muhajir nationalist party... nothing else and it gets few votes from elsewhere. And that is just a political ploy. When a political party expands it basically changes its name to show it has no ethnic basis. Both ANP and MQM are failures in this regard as a change in name cannot change the mindset and it hasn't changed the mission either. Even there was talk about the Hazara Democratic Party changing names and removing the Hazara from it. MQM operates like a typical ethno-chauvinist organization.

Comeon man... who are you kidding? How many voters of MQM are non-muhajirs except a few Pathan taxi drivers forced on gunpoint to attend their rallies to swell numbers (which I have an entire report on being a journalist)? Its an ethnic party and everyone is rejecting those in Pakistan now gradually realizing that unity is necessary. If you don't believe me look at the comments of ethnic Pashtuns on the Quaid's monument being demolished in Peshawar thread.

Its only the Karachites who have this love for terror chief that is unshakable. Man he doesn't believe in partition. You hear that? I mean if you are a Pakistani first that should set your blood on fire. I seriously almost cried when I saw him say that to an Indian audience "partition was a blunder" which means Pakistan's formation was an error?

Man we people from firangi mahal played a part in making the muslim league... played a massive part in partition. How can that low-life Indian lover sell our families to the Indians in one speech and we just clap for the retard? You want to know the primary reason I dislike my family/khandaan and our voting preferences (and according to a lot of you am biased towards Muhajirs despite being born in the community) its THAT speech. I would advise you to revise your position. Do you want to be known as a traitor to your khandaan that moved with only Pakistan on its lips? You sitting outside the country and are being a part of the issue instead of resolving it? Please re-consider. Forget my love for Pashtuns-its not why I criticize our family/khandaan and so-called "muhajir" mentality... I do so because I have a right to do so since that identity was imposed on me as it has been on the rest of the families and their children that moved.

 

[Secur]

@haviZsultan I will try to answer all your posts once I get some time , I am too busy at the moment because its the first week of the new semester at University and believe me these first few days are pretty intensive because of new subjects , their demands and the fresh environment and also due to the manufacturing project I am working on ...

Rest assured I am following as always !

 

[American Pakistani]

American Pakistani I feel living abroad... as I have too for a great deal of my life you would abandon this sense of self-victimization (victim syndrome) especially when there are pressing concerns like the framing of innocent Pakistanis on false terror charges in US and our weak representation of ourselves. But by supporting these traditional political parties we become a part of the issue. We can keep saying its because of what someone else did but that doesn't make it right for us to be reactionaries.

Self-victimization? lol...even when i was living in Pakistan i don't have this thingy. In US i always introduce myself only as a Pakistani...nothing else.

 

[American Pakistani]

Its no wonder years ago instead of offering proper opposition to Indian Anti-Pakistani political groups in Canada we fell at each others throats on issues like MQM/ANP/PMLN support. Only we, the nationalists stood fast but what can some 200 people do?

True & i agree this nonsense must be stop anywhere in foreign country, all Pakistanis must represent only as Pakistani. But i must add that many Pakistani(mostly Punjabis have this behaviour) that they love to call Pakistan as a state in indian subcontinent which is unacceptable for many people including me...even in this forum i've seen many fools who use this nonsense term. Also i've seen many Pakistanis calling themselves Desis which is also unacceptable. Think about other Pakistanis living in Western part of Pakistan why would they want themselves to be called desis or any other bu11cr@p. So it is better you ask other Pakistanis to stop using all these cr@ppy names & use only one name Pakistani.

 

[American Pakistani]

Personally I have never met a single non-muhajir who has ever called me by any of the names you mentioned or even Muhajir... even in my old days when I sympathized with MQM. Instead for respect they call us urdu speakers to ensure they don't offend but we (our families) on the other hand are keen to offend (I have given dozens of examples). American Pakistani... has anyone called you any of those 3 terms that or are you relying on the sayings of others like relatives or parents? Also bhai log is something more specific to the MQM rather than Muhajirs. I call MQM people bhai log. lol. Now does it mean if someone insults MQM he is insulting Muhajirs... why it has to set our families bum on fire?

I got all this info from websites(obviously i'm not old enough to witness what happened in 60's, 70's or 80's or even 90's when i was kid) & no alhamdolillah my parents & grandparents are patriot & only teach me to love Pakistan. Even my grand ma used to tell me stories how Pathans & Balochs fought to save immigrants(migrating from india to Pakistan) from indian(no offense) exteremist.


@haviZsultan i agree MQM may have bad apples but projecting them as devil is what is unacceptable. People bring their nonsense & talk as if they know alot & only MQM is the reason of all problems in Karachi or Pakistan.

 

[haviZsultan]

1. Thank you @haviZsultan for touching an important issue.

Welcome. You have contributed heavily in this thread.

2. Thank you moderators for allowing this discussion. If this were PakDef, Havi would have been banned by now; and based on what I have to say I would expect to be banned as well.

I agree. A topic cannot be ignored because it is either taboo or it has the potential to spark an ethnic conflict. Ignoring an issue turns it worse. This forum is now expanding... the areas of debate are as well... as the re-opening of this thread now proves. We need people who love Pakistan to counter the mindset of a person who's entire life is based on division because ultimately loving Pakistan doesn't mean loving just your ethnic group but each and every ethnic group in Pakistan.

3. Discussion of Mohajir identity here is rather simplistic and devoid of the nuances that are quite important. Nothing exists without a reason. If a number of people choose to call themselves Mohajirs, then one can not simply dismiss it. There is/are reasons for it.

I will divide a, b and c for further analysis. I am a little suspicious of the "nothing exists for a reason," bit because my cousins and relatives have on certain occasions used it to their benefit of pulling the victim card and deflecting blame to other communities. But I understand it is for good reasons that you mention it.

a) When an Urdu-speaking person sees that Sindhi favors a fellow Sindhi, Pathan favors a fellow Pathan, and Punjabi favors a fellow Punjabi, then naturally the said person might wonder what ought he to do when he needs a favor? In our Pakistan one can not simply assume a moral high-ground only to find oneself stranded alone and disadvantaged. When one goes to government departments one finds that there is a need to find references and to apply some sort influence to get a favorable outcome. High on this list are the departments with which a common person often needs to interact: Police, judiciary, revenue, municipal offices and such like.

About the bold part... you might be wondering why I simply do not address or admit to the fact that there have been some wrongs committed against Urdu speakers. But the thing is can a single incident ever be used to claim we are oppressed?

When Quaid E Azam said provincialism should disappear... he was right. But provincialism didn't disappear. We know about the ANP and MQM here... but we do not know about the Hazara Democratic Party or groups much worse... the Balwaristan Front which I am trying to contact for my report on ethnic tensions which includes separatism. Once upon a time the Hindkowans of Hazara division called themselves Pashtuns. But later extreme forms of Nationalism by Khudai Khidmatgars and their future generations mainly revolving around Pashto being their language have caused these people to distance themselves from Pashtuns. Today I have reports from Abtabad, particularly from Hazara university of constant clashes and one Hindko speaker and one Pashtun living there are highly politicized and seem to look down on each others ethnicity.

Personally my experience with the e-Afghans and their online backers has worried me deeply and perhaps you may even say prejudiced me against them despite claiming Pashtun identity (about 20-30% of all Pashtuns are in Afghanistan, rest in Pakistan but some Pashtun nationalists view it as their ideological homeland for some idiotic reason)... I can rightly claim that such people are callous, heartless people and you will never see them support anyone from another ethnic group on an issue but isn't this mentality also in Muhajirs?

For example lets talk about the Qasba Aligarh massacre. I could call a member @Monkey D Luffy here and he will never admit that a mob of 100's of Afghans murdered upon being evicted from a little camp because they were trouble-makers about 50 innocent people... it may also seem that he will do this only because those guys are so-called "Muhajirs" and he a Pashtun who somehow believes his ideological homeland is Afghanistan. He can come and clarify it if this is wrong but he will probably either find excuses like darkinsky, avoid the topic, deny or arrange some pathetic defense for that horrid land. Whatever the case he will never blame "Afghanistan" for it. Now till here it seems totally true... and perhaps in some peoples minds it brings the idea that they have to organize their own community which is he only one that can fight for their rights-meaning the first step towards isolation from the other ethnic groups which will lead to more steps.

But why not look further? About a 100 people were killed when those pathetic Afghans (nation) attacked Bajaur. 2 Pakistani Pashtuns were murdered by those Afghans (nation) but still this self-proclaimed Pashtun nationalist did not express sorrow? So you see this guy is very much like the Taliban an apologist of Afghanistan (again he hasn't made any such post in a while so he may have changed though he denied any change on the other forum)... so who is the real enemy? Is it actually the Pashtuns or the Afghans (nation). Again as I said these events have the ability to polarize society but if we think beyond ethnicity when faced with them we can find the real reasons. This is as I stated a National issue... not an ethnic one. Turning things into an ethnic issue from a national one is a tool of the ethno-fascist.

I think its part of our mentality of focusing on things in the Muhajir which we equate with MQM against the world scenario and in this we are being just like those racists. I noticed long ago that I have a choice. I could be a reactionary and become a victim to this victim syndrome like pretty much everyone else and defend "Muhajirs" but you know a Nationalist does not fall at the gates of ethnicity. He strives and struggles for his people and loves ALL his people. That includes every resident of Pakistan regardless of ethnicity or religion.

Also let me give you another example. If you are from Karachi you may know a major business tycoon called Nauman Nabi who is a millionaire or if not at least earns in 100's of thousands. Now he has a habit of hiring relatives in his company. But obviously all the relatives are muhajirs. So this gives them an advantage.

This is a very basic occurance. And let me tell you since Muhajirs comprise a middle class community our families and we guys have been doing it for a very long time. Perhaps intermarriages as @Secur stated or things like more interaction between communities can change this. But class differences have played a role in this since middle class families usually do not invite taxi drivers, cleaners and menial workers there and darkinsky was right when he stated Muhajirs make up the middle classes. Their 13000+ GDP per capita pretty much proves it.

b) Quota system makes sense to the over-whelming majority of the country's population, just as @Armstrong has pointed out. However, with many educated Urdu-speaking immigrants employed in the federal and provincial government in the early years of Pakistan, naturally their second generation expected to follow in their footsteps and aspire to a government job. Two factors then intervened. First, the shifting of Capital to Islamabad; and second, the imposition of quota system. Thus to Urdu-speaking population of Karachi there seemed to be a raw-deal for their second generation. The quota system was supposed to be temporary, but it proved so convenient that it is still alive and well. Now the situation for a number of years has been such that non-Urdu speakers predominate in the federal and provincial offices in Karachi. As I said, when people of particular ethnicities favor each other, there is natural resentment in the Urdu-speakers (I am avoiding using the term 'mohajir' purposely).

Frankly a lot of people claim that having positions in the government is the real issue. I do not believe having a few government positions was going to make a real change though it is unfortunate that basically it was feudal families and land-owners that took over politics in Pakistan. But why did we expect anything? A wise man once said ask not what your country can give you but what you can give your country. I explained the issue here. Its more of our families mentality after we came and personally I sympathize, anyone should but I believe it was a little too idealistic:

The identity becoming our family/khandaan's identity has to do with our own mindset which we brought when we came from India... we thought that after losing our ancestral homes, losing thousands along the way in the journey and struggling so hard (my grandfather used to go around on a cycle-we were poor as I said) we would later on get it all easy.

My views on the term urdu-speaker are covered in post 125 (after 3rd qoutation). It is definitely the better option for our families to call ourselves that between the two but I do not believe so that either identity should stay. In my reply to truthseer I will explain further what could be done to address it or what identity to adopt and tag you as my posts become ridiculously long and a pain to read as not everyone is a writer.

c) The resentment thus arising feeds the need to assume an identity and this is where the term 'Mohajir' finds its purpose. It is essentially a reactionary mechanism. A new 'ethnicity' is in the making because there is a perceived need for it. I have to say that in my limited understanding, the aforementioned resentment is a very important factor, perhaps the most important.

I think I have made efforts to explain why resentment shouldn't arise from a few changes. It is (being totally truthful) very difficult to find figures on ethnicity in Pakistan. But I have given 2 examples already that prove Muhajirs are in a relatively better position. One was the radio Pakistan directors example and the other was the example of gdp per capita of muhajirs.

Look at it this way. I could constantly say our families were oppressed, even agree with almost everything you say... but again I have a choice of either being part of the system and taking ethnic identity really seriously or challenging it and by doing so perhaps set an example and unite my people who tend to believe they are disparate but are in more ways than they believe possible similar.

 

[darkinsky]

Just an observation. Punjab faced THE worst of partition yet Muhajirs who migrated from Indian Punjab to Pak Punjab are never discussed and appreciated in mainstream.
But here in Punjab all who migrate mixed up and today we all are punjabis, but people in karachi who were much less in number then those who came to Punjab , kept their identity ... which wasnt right and causing issues.
Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...iscussion-muhajir-identity.html#ixzz2HOd2mlOt

my dear mian sahab, whydo you have a pakistani flag in your profile who you are a british isnt it?? you are a britsh now dont you, then what keeps you being pakistani?

or lets just forget, talk about the millions of punjabis and sariekis who settled in karachi, did they lose their identity perhaps? is this an issue anyhow?

i have punjabi indian friends who are settled in bangalore, they say they are punjabis and they speak punjabi, did they lose their identity perhaps?

 

[haviZsultan]

Second part of your post Chak Bamu. Sorry. I thought I would break it in half for easier reading. When you read one part... then would give you the other. I see you have.

4. This leads me to address the narrative that MQM has popularized among Urdu-speaking community. As noted by @haviZsultan there is an assumption of superiority among some (or many) in Urdu-speaking community. I have noticed so much myself. This superiority is based on certain assumptions among which level of education, cultural sophistication, Urdu's pre-eminent cultural position, a feeling of having sacrificed more than others, presumed victim-hood etc.. all figure. Elements from this list figure prominently in the narrative used by MQM. The presumption of victim-hood, the idea of having sacrificed disproportionately, the assumption that Pakistan was created by Urdu-speakers, and the assumption that this new country could not have survived without their sacrifices, is deeply ingrained in MQM workers and supporters. These assumptions assume a mythological significance and it is very difficult to shake them. These are the pillars upon which the edifice of 'Mohajir' identity is built.

I agree with this fully. I could write a long post in agreement as I have been doing with @Secur on another thread but perhaps those other replies need to be given... the new posts 2 are coming at a pace I cannot really manage to reply to all. But this is a brilliant analysis. It is so common in our family and so frustrating I have no clue what to do.

That this narrative is not quite the whole truth and that many people find these assumptions offensive does not quite sink in the committed MQM mind-set. I do not wish to provide counter arguments in the interest of brevity and can come back to this if asked.

I have a solid belief seeing how darkinsky ran away the MQM supporters will not really have enough debating firepower to face off with people who love their country here and do not mix ethnicity with Nationalism.

5. The formation of APMSO, the rise of Muhajir Qaumi Movement, and its factured evolution to Mutahidda Qaumi Movement has been well noted. The rhetoric, methods, and tactics used along the way are also well-known. Today MQM can not claim moral high ground, flaunt its self-assumed victim-hood, or make a valid claim to espouse the cause of the dispossessed. Nobody trusts them outside of their core support areas, no matter what they say. There was some willingness among the educated classes among various ethnicities to give them a chance, forget their earlier rhetoric, set aside the bias arising out of their methods; just to see how MQM goes about fulfilling its stated goals. I have seen all this support evaporate in the last decade or so. They had their chance and they blew it. They are condemned to the status of a small regional party. The best MQM can hope for is to sustain itself until it goes through a generational change. With new people unburdened with soiled reputations there would be another chance after a decade or two. But to avail that chance, MQM genuinely needs to jettison its parochial agenda. When an MQM supporter says emphatically that Karachi belongs to Muhajirs, they are perpetuating all that is wrong with MQM.

This is seriously one hell of a post and basically deals with all the beliefs I have personally witnessed in family and relatives constantly.

In the earlier part you also take a more rational role in analyzing the issues that may have led to what happened. Do not think I just wish to disagree. My personal wish is to actually eliminate this ethnic issue and do everything to maintain ethnic harmony. Being a muhajir by birth I could very well constantly like darkinsky peddle this stuff that a great bias has occurred but basically 99.9% of the born muhajirs are doing that? Perhaps I could play a pivotal role in ending them? And think of it like this. I criticize the behavior of muhajirs (I went into the intricate details into why I have a right to do that despite having made solid attempts to adopt Pashtun identity), maybe if a lot of people do that it could play a massive role in ending how serious a role race and ethnicity plays in our politics and basically everything we do.

Muhajirs would do a lot better if they did this instead of being outright rascists. darkinsky was much worse than he is once. I remember a week ago those MQM supporters were rampaging across this site like a stampede of elephants.

I am deeply cynical of MQM and can not bring myself to support them now. Pakistan needs much more than the middle-class ethos that MQM purports to represent. We are a nation. We need an inclusive vision. One that shows that each and everyone of us, even the much-hated waderas and sardars, has a stake in this country and its success. If ANP can be made to come around, then so can others.

A long time ago I was having a debate about darkinsky. He said MQM is a party for the middle class. He was absolutely right. He also said MQM is against feudalism and wadera culture. He was again right. But a little analysis will tell you the reality.

According to UN around 70% of our population earns $2.75 a day or less which makes them poor. The middle class as we know it comprises of a maximum of 30-50 million people from the population (though it is said in a report that in prevailing economic conditions-thank the PPP it is no more than 20 million)... so basically its just about 15-25% of the population (or less) in reality (or you can do the calculation yourself with the figures provided as I do not have a calculator at hand)... now lets analyze this. With a gdp per capita of 13000+ more than the group that comes second, the punjabis and almost 30,000 more than the one that is last (Balochs) its clear that a lot of muhajirs are from middle classes. Muhajirs make up the middle classes so basically here you see MQM's agenda favoring the muhajir which is why they constantly reiterate that they are a political party of middle classes which as I said make up only a small segment of the population.

Now on to the second point. You can guess this. These people are migrants. How many feudal lords or waderas have you seen of Muhajir ethnicity? I mean this is a very good thing... but you see their votebank and neither their leaders have any stake in the sardari or wadera culture so they condemn it more vociferously than the other political parties.

MQM is a regional party and its mindset too is ethnic. And the thing is with these policies being favored towards them a lot of people will ignore the statistics I gave about the proportional rise of violence in Karachi with the MQM's rise... it is a truth and even I cannot deny these realities having seen their party manifesto and some of the policies implemented for Karachi.

But this brings us to the entire issue doesn't it? Why didn't it come to the heads of any other party that has won votes from around the country say PPP or PMLN? Some things could have been done to defeat these parties operating on an ethnic basis, for example lets say the name change of NWFP to Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. Now for the past 60 years are you telling me that it came to no ones head that all provinces had a name with only that had none and this would be biased to the local people? I mean to many it doesn't matter. I talked to a maseed (it's a Pashtun tribe) on twitter and he was against the renaming completely but there are a lot of people that see this as an issue. ANP capitalized on the resentment this caused and now have under their belt things like making Pashto compulsory and renaming the province. Now given their background with Asfandyar Wali being a son of Bacha Khan who opposed partition should we have left this huge window open in the night for the cat to climb through and eat our dinner.

I mean for a nationalist... even for the nationalist organizations I worked for it has always been an attempt to eliminate ethnic identity completely and in truth it hasn't worked at all. Instead we should work to give equal rights to all and especially preserve the cultures, languages and . You might think I am digressing but my purpose was to find a solution for not just the identity issue of so-called Muhajirs but for the entire issue. The nationalist parties (if any comes up in the gutter we call politics today) should change their direction on these issues. In fact even forget that... for once a nationalist true federation party MUST enter politics.

I am writing this to solve the issue

I wish to write about the dubious role of Punjabis and their happy-go-lucky attitudes in creation of various misunderstandings, but I think that can wait til later for a more appropriate time and thread.

Your post was too brilliant. I believe yours is a more neutral perspective towards the issue where you wish to take into account the perspective of so-called Muhajirs and sympathize with them. Mine is a bit concerned with efforts for ethnic unity and challenging the norms that plague us and challenging my race of birth and question why we are we so stiff about race... why when a punjabi is insulted his pashtun/sindhi/baloch brother (or the other way around) doesn't feel a pang of hurt and immediately try to defend him but instead bashes him? Its sad what we have become. We can't hold our nation together... mishandled a very easily solvable issue (1971) and are here today. Despite 71 people do not realize how important resolving this ethnic issue is.

Your post being too brilliant I did some research. Chak Bamu (your username) I found is a village in Indian Punjab in the district Hoshiarpur.

You can correct me as I may be wrong. But perhaps you could cast light on how confusing all of this might be for you as it is for me if the links to a Pashtun past can be proven (even then it was just a single ancestor meaning very little Pashtun blood in reality even if true). In many ways a migrant from Punjab would seriously have an identity crisis because there are Punjabis in Punjab and migrants have adopted the wider term muhajirs.

Personally I feel these identities should have become inconsequential or disappeared as they have in every developed nation. They haven't and people think of them as extremely important so I feel inclined to have this debate in the first place. To be truthful sometimes people make me feel quite stupid and ridiculous. Pashtun nationalists nor Muhajir chauvinists accept me as one of them which is why I stated once to secur I am ethnicity-less in many ways.