Split Discussion: Muhajir Identity

[Huda]

Govt Islamia Science College, Karachi. Go there & see what these jamiat guys do there. They don't want students to get education but join their organization. Go there & get the facts yourself.

Actually muhajir wants to be call muhajir my grandfather migrated from Pune but my father always said to me beta our grandparents are muhjair but we are Sindhi or just pakistani because we live here. Many muhajir wants to call them muhajir becuase of MQM

 

[Android]

Actually muhajir wants to be call muhajir my grandfather migrated from Pune

do your family still speak Marathi??? just curious

 

[jaibi]

Hi folks... a lot of you may have been noticing my posts which are a little negative towards Muhajirs... though my old posts will reveal I was a solid one myself once. This thread is a solid attempt by me to discuss Muhajir identity.

A little personal background. I was born in a family that considers itself Muhajir. We have a rich history and strong heritage in Lucknow with relatives spread in Hyderabad, Bihar Delhi and other parts. Personally I am quite frustrated with some of the hate amongst Muhajirs for ethnic groups and have taken to adopting Pashtun identity though there are some unproven links. I hope this is not a hindrance to this discussion and my personal decisions are not a reason for hate.

Please share your views on what you think about Muhajir identity. Is Muhajir not a derogatory term meaning pilgrim? Yet why do our families insist on maintaining this distinction that divides us from the rest of our countrymen? Is the MQM the sole representative of Muhajirs? Or is it a violent organization that misrepresents Muhajirs? Please involve yourself in this debate.

I may then incorporate aspects in my paper on ethnic issues which is already getting thicker. Please share your views in this thread. It will be greatly appreciated.

Keep the discussion strictly on Muhajirs and their identity. This is not a troll-fest.

I will start the discussion with a post to @Armstrong. @Secur, @Karachiite, @GIANTsasquatch please join us and bring friends who are knowledgeable on the matter. Varying views are tolerated here but please do not resort to racism. I would like to encourage self-deprecating views about ethnicity here. If we can keep it civil and no one provokes me too much with racism we may call others as well. @Armstrong... your expertise and your interest in ethnic issues may deeply help here in keeping this thread alive and it being a resource for me, the site, Muhajirs and most importantly for Pakistan, for which I hope all of us work?

Meherbani.


Please admins, mods. Do not close the thread. The ethnic groups are a part of Pakistan and this issue must be resolved. Ethnic groups exist... we can try and keep the discussion on national news and politics but it is incorrect to ignore a certain topic just because it may taboo or has a potential for being misused by confused individuals. Instead it is our duty to counter the narrative of people who use ethnicity as a basis of politics.

I said the same about the red light districts recently, debate must continue regardless of the topic-if it is an issue in Pakistan it is our job to find a solution. I would request help from @Oscar in keeping this clean. Do provide your personal input as well.

The question of 'Mohajar identity' is a complex one but not that hard to understand. Firstly, if the technical term is to applied then a lot of Punjabis too are Mohajars; my own maternal grand parents came from Jalandar and Amritsar yet they have never been considered Mohajars. Why? This is because Indian national identity (I mean from the colonial time on-wards) has shaky basis. The peoples of this land never considered each other as 'ONE NATION' and therefore immediate cultural bonds were stronger than those of the ultra-nationalists e.g. a Punjabi for Lahore considered a Punjabi from Amritsar as a Punjabi. Traditionally, the ethnic lines have been much stronger in South Asia.

The Mohajars that are considered Mohajars are those people that came from those Indian regions that did not have a direct cultural interaction with the people of the areas that made up Pakistan. These were considered as the 'out-group' (a term in Social Psychology to refer to the group of people clustered as those that do not belong to the group that one identifies to which is called the in-group) and interestingly the negative connotation that you talk about HaviZ has a historic basis. Many of the individuals that came to Pakistan tried to snub the local culture here (CSPs, high level politicians, even Quaid-e-Azam himself was technically a Mohajar). This snubbing still continues e.g. Punjabi is still not recognised as an official language in Pakistan despite being the 10th most widely spoken language in the world. Same happened in Bengal.

This drove the negative connotation of the word 'Mohajar' and similarly so does the fact that many Mohajar families have relatives in India; classicaly this drove suspicion especially in the 1990s campaign against the MQM orchestrated by PML-N and to a lesser extent by the PPP.

Regarding the question of identity, it is a valid identity to carry. See, the fact is that the Mohajar population is highly educated and glued together perhaps not because of their similarities to one another but due to their differences from the rest. Pakistani govt has absolutely ignored any efforts to assimilate people e.g. have cultural exhange programmes within the nation, send university students from Peshawar to Karachi, Karachi to Quetta, Quetta to Lahore, Lahore to Hyderabad etc., The only institution that has been able to do that is the military (e.g. Gen. Beg, Gen. Zia were Mohajars). This increases the ethnic cracks, if you will, between the people of Pakistan.

Our assimilation process has been by aggressive stumping of differences. This cannot be successful in the long run. We need active assimilation of the ethnic groups (between common people) and that will lead to an active assimilation. I'd like to give an example here that many people think that Punjabis dominate Pakistan. Depite being the majority in Pakistan many Punjabis feel suppressed, especially, as propogated by the negation of their language, inter-Punjabi groups such as Sarakis feel their identity is not recognised and so on. How real their point is is not as important as the fact that their perceptions are as such and people act on perceptions not realities.

Like the lack of education the ethnic taboo is other big problem that we like to ignore but I absolutely agree with you that it needs to be catered and discussed. Personally, I feel that their needs be a potent unitary effort which would require us to stock the economic development of each ethnic group in a civics context rather a political one so the ethnic identity cannot be used to exploit national or local politics (MQM strategy since its inception, sadly).

Regards.

 

[haviZsultan]

I thought... what more is left. I wrote an entire book about muhajir identity on this thread... but out of respect for you and your long post I am replying. I know how tough it is and what a morale dampener it is when those posts get no thanks or qoutes. I don't think I will be very active on PDF for 3-4 days so keep that in mind before you respond. I also hope you have checked out post 153. Long but it is the crux of this entire thread.

The question of 'Mohajar identity' is a complex one but not that hard to understand. Firstly, if the technical term is to applied then a lot of Punjabis too are Mohajars; my own maternal grand parents came from Jalandar and Amritsar yet they have never been considered Mohajars. Why? This is because Indian national identity (I mean from the colonial time on-wards) has shaky basis. The peoples of this land never considered each other as 'ONE NATION' and therefore immediate cultural bonds were stronger than those of the ultra-nationalists e.g. a Punjabi for Lahore considered a Punjabi from Amritsar as a Punjabi. Traditionally, the ethnic lines have been much stronger in South Asia.

They have but we can break those ethnic lines. My point was exactly the same to chak bamu. You moved from amritsar yet you do not call yourself muhajir. That is the failure of muhajir identity right there.

The Mohajars that are considered Mohajars are those people that came from those Indian regions that did not have a direct cultural interaction with the people of the areas that made up Pakistan. These were considered as the 'out-group' (a term in Social Psychology to refer to the group of people clustered as those that do not belong to the group that one identifies to which is called the in-group) and interestingly the negative connotation that you talk about HaviZ has a historic basis. Many of the individuals that came to Pakistan tried to snub the local culture here (CSPs, high level politicians, even Quaid-e-Azam himself was technically a Mohajar). This snubbing still continues e.g. Punjabi is still not recognised as an official language in Pakistan despite being the 10th most widely spoken language in the world. Same happened in Bengal.

I do not think Quaid E Azam can ever be classified as a muhajir, it is wrong. For example he said when asked whether he was shia or sunni that he was just muslim... he refused these classifications. What gives us the idea he would like to be classified as a muhajir?

Furthermore the rest of your post-agreed. Punjabi, Pashto, Seraiki, all major languages should be official and promoted respectively in the provinces. Even Punjab hasn't declared Punjabi official.

This drove the negative connotation of the word 'Mohajar' and similarly so does the fact that many Mohajar families have relatives in India; classicaly this drove suspicion especially in the 1990s campaign against the MQM orchestrated by PML-N and to a lesser extent by the PPP.

You are being too easy on our migrant families. In 1984 MQM was formed. From 1985-1990 3000 people were killed. We are butchers. We dip our votes in blood when we give our votes to the MQM and my entire khandaan supports these killers.

But the suspicion you claimed exists. But having relatives in Lucknow or other parts occupied by India mean nothing. That is Pakistani land anyway and our relatives are an extention. For example we of the Firangi Mahal house formed and hosted the muslim league. People don't understand but when you vote in a killer party thats bound to happen. Syed Jamaluddin openly calls for Jinnahpur and break-up of Pakistan and guess what-he is a colleague of Altaf Hussain.

Again lets just say agencies somehow forgot to deal with that monkey and decided to grab 600-800 innocent civilians for baba American. Its our job to somehow stop that traitor-(especially migrants job to stop that traitor) but it can't be done when our khandaan believes we are doodh key dulhey and haven't done anything wrong and we migrants are somehow the victims despite having the highest gdp per capita in Pakistan

I should apologize Jaibi but I am myself seeking to merge as a Pashtun (see post 153) so don't know how that will work. This entire identity is a mistake and on it is based the pillar-the foundation of MQM. It is an identity of hatred. I say this despite being a migrant. If you would see the racism in our living rooms you would hate us. I am trying to rectify a huge mistake.

Regarding the question of identity, it is a valid identity to carry. See, the fact is that the Mohajar population is highly educated and glued together perhaps not because of their similarities to one another but due to their differences from the rest. Pakistani govt has absolutely ignored any efforts to assimilate people e.g. have cultural exhange programmes within the nation, send university students from Peshawar to Karachi, Karachi to Quetta, Quetta to Lahore, Lahore to Hyderabad etc., The only institution that has been able to do that is the military (e.g. Gen. Beg, Gen. Zia were Mohajars). This increases the ethnic cracks, if you will, between the people of Pakistan.

Read post 153. Otherwise I will be repeating myself. I understand your defence of them. But the last thing Pakistan needs is another identity which is also false and insulting to me. Muhajir means religious pilgrim and is a slap to me while urdu speaker means urdu speaker... its limited to urdu speakers while migrants spoke gujarati, konkani, marathi and many other lingos (Its a crime!). I loathe both terms though am forced to use migrant even though that is a weak term.

We may have to accept it but it is a responsibility of me and truthseer to fight it and provide a counter-narrative. Anyone who helps me in this like @Chak Bamu is a brother... but the real change has to come from within.

I lost distant family member (member of my distant family and nisbat) in Hyderabad and will never allow my land to be broken. In 71 ethnicity was used to break this land. There is nothing for me but this land. I will not allow ethnicity to be used to break this land once more.

Our assimilation process has been by aggressive stumping of differences. This cannot be successful in the long run. We need active assimilation of the ethnic groups (between common people) and that will lead to an active assimilation. I'd like to give an example here that many people think that Punjabis dominate Pakistan. Depite being the majority in Pakistan many Punjabis feel suppressed, especially, as propogated by the negation of their language, inter-Punjabi groups such as Sarakis feel their identity is not recognised and so on. How real their point is is not as important as the fact that their perceptions are as such and people act on perceptions not realities.

It is because of the urdu speakers privilaged position on top. Do check the Pashto language thread and how the average Karachites intrinsic bias makes him think it is a threat. If our families, us migrants were willing to surrender some rights it would not be a problem. I don't see the issue with a Punjabi wanting to speak or promote Punjabi or a Pashtun for that matter. I am sorry for their attitude. Make sure you read that post 153. Its long-but it is the mother of all posts. If you believe it is unviable, I am a muhajir by birth and am already doing it with only limited and UNPROVEN Pashtun links. Have done it actually. Ze Pashtun yam. I will call myself Pashtun (after Pakistani first second and last of course and help relieve ethnic tensions)

Like the lack of education the ethnic taboo is other big problem that we like to ignore but I absolutely agree with you that it needs to be catered and discussed. Personally, I feel that their needs be a potent unitary effort which would require us to stock the economic development of each ethnic group in a civics context rather a political one so the ethnic identity cannot be used to exploit national or local politics (MQM strategy since its inception, sadly).

Fully agree. Ignoring an issue is never a solution but a dire mistake. Stick around and keep posting. You may make it to think tank some day.

 

[INDIC]

Muhajir identity is evolving as a unique cocktail of different cultures of North India like Awadhi, Bihari, Hyderabadi and Gujarati.
In few more decades their culture will be unique and difference easily recognizable from the Muslims of Awadhi, Bihar, Deccan or Gujarat.

 

[jaibi]

I thought... what more is left. I wrote an entire book about muhajir identity on this thread... but out of respect for you and your long post I am replying. I know how tough it is and what a morale dampener it is when those posts get no thanks or qoutes. I don't think I will be very active on PDF for 3-4 days so keep that in mind before you respond. I also hope you have checked out post 153. Long but it is the crux of this entire thread.



They have but we can break those ethnic lines. My point was exactly the same to chak bamu. You moved from amritsar yet you do not call yourself muhajir. That is the failure of muhajir identity right there.


I do not think Quaid E Azam can ever be classified as a muhajir, it is wrong. For example he said when asked whether he was shia or sunni that he was just muslim... he refused these classifications. What gives us the idea he would like to be classified as a muhajir?

Furthermore the rest of your post-agreed. Punjabi, Pashto, Seraiki, all major languages should be official and promoted respectively in the provinces. Even Punjab hasn't declared Punjabi official.



You are being too easy on our migrant families. In 1984 MQM was formed. From 1985-1990 3000 people were killed. We are butchers. We dip our votes in blood when we give our votes to the MQM and my entire khandaan supports these killers.

But the suspicion you claimed exists. But having relatives in Lucknow or other parts occupied by India mean nothing. That is Pakistani land anyway and our relatives are an extention. For example we of the Firangi Mahal house formed and hosted the muslim league. People don't understand but when you vote in a killer party thats bound to happen. Syed Jamaluddin openly calls for Jinnahpur and break-up of Pakistan and guess what-he is a colleague of Altaf Hussain.

Again lets just say agencies somehow forgot to deal with that monkey and decided to grab 600-800 innocent civilians for baba American. Its our job to somehow stop that traitor-(especially migrants job to stop that traitor) but it can't be done when our khandaan believes we are doodh key dulhey and haven't done anything wrong and we migrants are somehow the victims despite having the highest gdp per capita in Pakistan

I should apologize Jaibi but I am myself seeking to merge as a Pashtun (see post 153) so don't know how that will work. This entire identity is a mistake and on it is based the pillar-the foundation of MQM. It is an identity of hatred. I say this despite being a migrant. If you would see the racism in our living rooms you would hate us. I am trying to rectify a huge mistake.



Read post 153. Otherwise I will be repeating myself. I understand your defence of them. But the last thing Pakistan needs is another identity which is also false and insulting to me. Muhajir means religious pilgrim and is a slap to me while urdu speaker means urdu speaker... its limited to urdu speakers while migrants spoke gujarati, konkani, marathi and many other lingos (Its a crime!). I loathe both terms though am forced to use migrant even though that is a weak term.

We may have to accept it but it is a responsibility of me and truthseer to fight it and provide a counter-narrative. Anyone who helps me in this like @Chak Bamu is a brother... but the real change has to come from within.

I lost distant family member (member of my distant family and nisbat) in Hyderabad and will never allow my land to be broken. In 71 ethnicity was used to break this land. There is nothing for me but this land. I will not allow ethnicity to be used to break this land once more.



It is because of the urdu speakers privilaged position on top. Do check the Pashto language thread and how the average Karachites intrinsic bias makes him think it is a threat. If our families, us migrants were willing to surrender some rights it would not be a problem. I don't see the issue with a Punjabi wanting to speak or promote Punjabi or a Pashtun for that matter. I am sorry for their attitude. Make sure you read that post 153. Its long-but it is the mother of all posts. If you believe it is unviable, I am a muhajir by birth and am already doing it with only limited and UNPROVEN Pashtun links. Have done it actually. Ze Pashtun yam. I will call myself Pashtun (after Pakistani first second and last of course and help relieve ethnic tensions)



Fully agree. Ignoring an issue is never a solution but a dire mistake. Stick around and keep posting. You may make it to think tank some day.

I really appreciate you replying to my post and thanks a lot for the encouragement, HaviZ. We Pakistanis don't really encourage each other and we should. I've flirted with the idea of a novel based on the War on Terror too and I await your novel.

I agree with your post and I'd just like to concisely say that the premise on which ethnic issues are based need to be differenitated first. If they are based on the economics/developmental and political power lines then we'd never move towards a solution as it'd be profitable to exploit differences not work towards unity. Once the ethnic identity comes into an existential realm then we can progress; I believe it is an absolutely healthy activity, having gone through it myself and unlike the fears of a lot of people it'd unite us not separate us.

On a larger level the issues that you and I've faced along with our nation is due to a much larger vacuum in our national philosophical base from which we can derive our identity while conforming to the premise of a national identity.

Thank you for the reply and starting this post. I believe further discussions on this would be very productive.

Regards.

PS I read post 153, interesting points raised and answered. The only difference is that I answered it from a more Psychological/Philosophical paradigm and you, along with some other good posters, from a more Political/Nationalistic line. Yet we largely agree on the way forward.

 

[American Pakistani]

Many muhajir wants to call them muhajir becuase of MQM

MQM is an abbreviation for Muttahida Qaumi Movement, there is no Muhajir word in there. In this same thread i posted the reason why Muhajir word had been chosen(by Muhajirs) as ethnic identity just like Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch, Pushtun or Kashmiri.

do your family still speak Marathi??? just curious

My Maternal GrandMother & her family was from Mumbai, she used to speak this language but we could not understand a single word.

May Allah bless her soul.

 

[SQ8]

Interesting observation to all those blessed Muslims taking up sides in the divide due to their race..

If one goes according to the Quran.. then the first being.. to openly display a superiority complex based upon his existence or privilege before a new group of dwellers was none other than Iblees himself.

After all, it was him who first claimed that I shall not bow down to Adam for I am made of fire and he of sand..
So if committing acts that mirror satan are sins.. then sinners about there are.

but then Similar echos can be heard throughout this thread.. I am better because I am a "Son of the soil" or "Descendant of Nawabs".. " more educated than you were".. and so on..

a few more years then to this country??

 

[INDIC]

MQM is an abbreviation for Muttahida Qaumi Movement, there is no Muhajir word in there. In this same thread i posted the reason why Muhajir word had been chosen(by Muhajirs) as ethnic identity just like Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch, Pushtun or Kashmiri

.

MQM was previously known as Muhajir Qaumi Movment.

My Maternal GrandMother & her family was from Mumbai, she used to speak this language but we could not understand a single word.

May Allah bless her soul.

And 1-2 generations later all of you Muhajirs will share little with Indian Muslims. All of you are forgetting the languages your elders brought to Pakistan like Marathi, Hyderabadi Urdu, Bihari etc.

 

[American Pakistani]

.

MQM was previously known as Muhajir Qaumi Movment.

Previously but no more. Muhajir Qaumi Movement(MQM-H) is now a separate & rival political party of Muttahida Qaumi Movement.

And 1-2 generations later all of you Muhajirs will share little with Indian Muslims. All of you are forgetting the languages your elders brought to Pakistan like Marathi, Hyderabadi Urdu, Bihari etc.

The thing is that My Maternal GrandMother's family was from Mumbai but my Maternal GrandFather's family was from different place of india so obviously the common language was Urdu. BTW my Uncle(Mamo) can understand & speak a bit Marathi, plus my Maternal GrandMother's family speaks this language very well too. In Karachi people speak different languages but common language is Urdu.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

As my Grandpa used to say - Asliii Kashmiri sirf Valley ka hotaa haiii the rest are just masquerading as such !

I disagree with this, strongly.

 

[INDIC]

I disagree with this, strongly.

I too have heard it. The real Kashmiris are the one from valley who speak Koshur.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

I too have heard it. The real Kashmiris are the one from valley who speak Koshur.

People in the valley are for the most part Koshur, from which Kashmir derives from. Kashmir, as a whole, refers to the state of Jammu and Kashmir and is an umbrella term for the different groups of people historically inhabiting it (i.e., pre-1947). When people say they're Kashmiri, they don't mean they're Koshur, it refers to the nationality, rather than ethnicity. One does not call oneself Punjabi, Tamil, or whatever to express that they are Indian.

If you wish to argue on the lines of one homogeneous ethnicity comprising a state, nation or country, then feel free, but to argue that would also be to argue against the foundations of the Indian State itself.

EDIT: Leave this topic as it is, if further discussion is needed on the above points, feel free to create a new thread.

 

[474474]

Muhajir identity is evolving as a unique cocktail of different cultures of North India like Awadhi, Bihari, Hyderabadi and Gujarati.
In few more decades their culture will be unique and difference easily recognizable from the Muslims of Awadhi, Bihar, Deccan or Gujarat.

It already has, I've never met a bihari or delhiwala of this generation who can still speak in the original accent. We mostly have a unique karachiite accent

.

MQM was previously known as Muhajir Qaumi Movment.


And 1-2 generations later all of you Muhajirs will share little with Indian Muslims. All of you are forgetting the languages your elders brought to Pakistan like Marathi, Hyderabadi Urdu, Bihari etc.

Some actually put a lot of effort in remembering, particularly the boris and memons etc who speak their ancestral languages fluently while they speak urdu without their ancestral accents (best of both worls )

Muhajir identity is evolving as a unique cocktail of different cultures of North India like Awadhi, Bihari, Hyderabadi and Gujarati.
In few more decades their culture will be unique and difference easily recognizable from the Muslims of Awadhi, Bihar, Deccan or Gujarat.

I'm one fourth bihari but bihari culture is just plain evil I dont even tell anyone that fact in real life

 

[rockstar08]

this is all we can do now divide the nation by their identity .... sooner or later this country will be divided , into pieces just like east Pakistan , but this time we can not blame India , truth behind Bangladesh was that our politician were unfair with them , same we are doing in Baluchistan and now it already start in Karachi , making Sindhi, Baluchi , Punjabi and pathans against Urdu speaking peoples .... with all this mess i dont see a bright future for Pakistan ...