Solving Afghanistan?

[Xeric]

"Thank you West!!"

Can't you show more respect to your comrades than to save your rant for a separate post. Finally, as an army officer are you comfortable with this being an appropriate reaction?

I suppose all attacks on Pakistan are the product of hidden hands as no Pakistani would ever do such.

You'd better wake up. You're an army officer and should be more circumspect in your assessment. It makes me wonder what traffic control measures you employ for force protection and their effectiveness?

It makes you blame the west.

Hey come on soldier!

What's the fuss about?

It is strange that a yank is against the freedom of speech.

i personally don't rant, so dear no need to misfire.
If you need reasons, i am filled with them, just lend me you ear

And what being in the military has to do with it? Care to elaborate?

If a yank soldier can openly argue, narrate and dictate its hegemonical claims why cant a soldier from the third world do the same?

Is it because you have only been taught to rule? or is it because there is nobody you consider superior to yourselves?

BTW, Lets not pollute the thread, we have enough time on that other thread

 

[S-2]

"Hey come on soldier!

What's the fuss about?"

The tacky swipe at the west in the midst of your condolences. It could wait for elsewhere.

"It is strange that a yank is against the freedom of speech."

Never. I reserve the right to call it for what it is, however. Here, it was a gross breach of tact and decorum.

"i personally don't rant, so dear no need to misfire."

In fact you do. To include here and now. Lay off the knee-jerk accusations until the dead have grown cold and an investigation has been conducted. It would then be my preference that, short of criminal culpability, this incident be kept close hold-as should all bombings per OPSEC considerations as there's value to traffic control TTPs that shouldn't be shared.

Traffic control, btw, is a massive COIN-related challenge. You must learn to do it well with minimal danger to your citizens and maximum protection to your troops. Nobody's perfect and that definitely includes us as this is a thinking enemy in a real assymetric war and he WILL modify his approaches accordingly.

Save that term of endearment for your wife, girlfriend or batman. My firing pits are clean and my propellant dry. I've no fear in that regard. Anytime you wish to discuss cannons let's chit-chat. I'd love to learn more about the technical end of your business-specifically gunnery procedures and your organizations for combat.

 

[Xeric]

The tacky swipe at the west in the midst of your condolences. It could wait for elsewhere.

Exactly!
Yours reflex actioned reply to my thank was also not required, it could also have waited.

BTW, i just thanked the West, was it bad?

Never. I reserve the right to call it for what it is, however. Here, it was a gross breach of tact and decorum.

Agreed, but you know it holds guud for you also.

It would then be my preference that, short of criminal culpability, this incident be kept close hold-as should all bombings per OPSEC considerations as there's value to traffic control TTPs that shouldn't be shared.

i call this common sense. Which is not taught in Field manuals BTW

Traffic control, btw, is a massive COIN-related challenge. You must learn to do it well with minimal danger to your citizens and maximum protection to your troops. Nobody's perfect and that definitely includes us as this is a thinking enemy in a real assymetric war and he WILL modify his approaches accordingly.

Again dude, how many times have i told you, i don't require a lecture on coin and LIC from a retired american soldier, not here, would like to share the knowldge but not like this.

Save that term of endearment for your wife, girlfriend or batman.

Somethin's burnin here, aaye!

My firing pits are clean and my propellant dry.

That comes with old age, relax

I've no fear in that regard.

You bet

Anytime you wish to discuss cannons let's chit-chat. I'd love to learn more about the technical end of your business-specifically gunnery procedures and your organizations for combat.

Oh ya why not, but as i was discussing with Ango, that there is quite a difference between the way we deal with OPSEC and you people do, we are kinda more wary, and it is a requirement in our scenario, (well now dont start giving me lecture on this).

Anywaz, we can discuss the gunnery and the ballistics stuff anytime, let me how much can i eruct.

BTW, i have read quite a few american/british FMs, i'll let you know the numbers by tomorrow.

 

[zraver]

On the issue of blaming the West, S-2, the common perception is that the suicide bombing phenomena in Pakistan started with the US invasion of Afghanistan. I have very many reasons to attribute a part of the blame on to the invasion as it deserves it, for the rest we need to protect ourselves better and think about what kind of future we want for Pakistan (although I suspect the course is already set).

Why doesn't the army crush the insurgents? If there is a hidden hand its on the GoP in keeping the army back, or in the PA in not going full bore. The Army has the strength to suppress the region and deny it as a safe haven to the Taliban. If the Pakistani's would move in force and NATO would keep up its operations to seal the border and buy the poppie crops the taliban would be defeated in under a year.

Pakistan is screwed by both the Taliban and the US. This is the real deal. ill-conceived tactical and strategic policies, getting used by others, and an occupation of Afghanistan are among the primary reasons for the mess Pakistan finds herself in.

Pakistan is screwing itself. The FATA is only a cancer because either the GoP or PA allows it to remain so.

 

[S-2]

How refreshing.

Succinct and to the point. Nothing like an American armor NCO. The combat arm of decision.

I concur. It really is that simple and a matter of will that extends back to late 2001 when you assisted the retreat of our enemies and (specifically) your friends and mentees-the taliban gov't of Afghanistan and it's army.

Two months to reach that western border and do what armies of prudent countries do when nations adjacent to them are at war-seal their borders.

No, I don't expect it could be perfect-ever. And yes, it would have also entailed patrolling/sweeping the afghan refugee camps and other areas further in from your borders for those that slip through but the difference should and would've been immeasurable.

Of course many didn't cross into Afghanistan. This insurgency however, never happens without Pakistan coming alive as a support base and sanctuary.

SANCTUARY- remember the word. It can connote both permanent and temporary rest and respite. Pakistan affords both and has since the beginning of this war despite it's own loudly-professed pontifications to the unimpeachable certainty of it's sovereign rights.

Long since quietly having forgotten their sovereign responsibilities to themselves and others.

 

[zraver]

Not and NCO just enlisted. I won't claim false honors.

other than that I agree with you for the most part. The place were I would disagree, and do so rather strongly, it is your use of the accusatory YOU, "your friends and mentees-the taliban gov't of Afghanistan and it's army." I think the majority of our Pakistani friends here are anti-Taliban. But they do not have the power, that resides me thinks inside the ISI who is playing its own game.

FATA is effectively not Pakistan, and it never will be until and unless the Army and government get on the same page and decide to plant the flag and make the natives acknowledge it.

 

[S-2]

"The place were I would disagree, and do so rather strongly, it is your use of the accusatory YOU, "your friends and mentees-the taliban gov't of Afghanistan and it's army." I think the majority of our Pakistani friends here are anti-Taliban."

I disagree. The afghan taliban hold an esteemed position here from what I can see. Nobody that indulges strategic depth as fundamental to Pakistan's nat'l security view the afghan taliban otherwise. Insist otherwise as you will but a great deal of the indecisiveness we've witnessed is a function of this internal conflict between the "good" and "bad" taliban in the minds of many.

 

[Xeric]

Two months to reach that western border and do what armies of prudent countries do when nations adjacent to them are at war-seal their borders

S-2 sometimes you really talk as if you were born yesterday(no offence), but that's how it is.

Seal the border, Ok, if you think that you have given us a superb advice then you are mistaken!

We are and were very willing to close the borders, but how?

It is not a border between South and North Dakota, that you tie a knot behind a snail's ** and let it move and by the end of the day you have a demarcated border.

It is 2,640 kilometers (oh sorry yanks dont understand KMs-1,610 miles) of rugged mountainous terrain, which, at the first place, is not previously properly marked. Thanks to Mr Durand.

Do you know how much it takes to seal 2640 Kms???

LoC is just 740 km(460 miles) and they have already fenced it, but still complain of border crossings.

About 0.1 million troops are committed from both the side on the LoC, and you suggest us to seal the 2640 kms.

BTW, this doesn't includes the Working Boundary and the Line of Actual Contact. If this is included, the figures go insane!


We dont have electricity for the people and you expect us to power 2640 km of fence with electricity at our own.

Care to ask an indian member how much electricity they are consuming on the LoC?

S-2 i am really impressed by you analytical and strategical thinking!

Oh sorry again, you are the Americans, dollars everywhere, you could even hire others to work for you, it would have been easy for you to say and do, but not for us.

We have been shouting since the start that come on lets fence this damn Durand Line but who would listen, and why would you listen, you want that those who are kicked in Afghanistan should come to this side of the border, so that you have a free run inside Pakistan!

You back patted, babiesh, puppet Afghan govt would give us a damn when we ask them to share the expenditure.

Had you been so worried about the influx and egress of those Talibans into Pakistan you would have been more forthcoming.

You knew that we couldn't do it, so it was part of your plan in Aghanistan.

Thanks again

And next time please keep your unworthy advices with you!

And please reply to this only if you have something reasonable to say.
No rant!

 

[Xeric]

I think the majority of our Pakistani friends here are anti-Taliban. But they do not have the power,

Thanks for the clarification

that resides me thinks inside the ISI who is playing its own game.

Here i'll differ, though ISI have been handling the Afghan Talibans since longbut that doesn't mean they are friends with them, and yes as pointed out by the US regarding the unfriendly 'involvement' of ISI, measures have been taken, but sorry, nothing have been found to justify the claim, neither by the US nor by us.

FATA is effectively not Pakistan, and it never will be until and unless the Army and government get on the same page and decide to plant the flag and make the natives acknowledge it.

Well we have problems in FATA and steps had been taken, but you know what they had lot of impediments, most glaringly the drone attacks, how could you befriend those people if innocents are being killed and you are making/forcing the locals to become against you and us. So it had to stop.

People are killed by the US drones and Pakistani govt is made the scapegoat, and the Mr Mehsud have problem with our govt. You know it that everything is not done by use of force, stick and carrot has to work together, otherwise, no fruit is yield.

Talibans have to be eliminated, but not like this.

Killing one Talib and 10 others will result in an aggregated total increase of 9 x MANY more Talibans (the 9 x brothers, friends and families,who has died due to unjust)

And i agree with you in totality, the Army and the GoP has to be together on deciding the strategy, they have to work together.

The govt ask the Army to operate, while also reminding it of keeping the hands soft, and when the death toll rises, the govt retracts, leaving behind the Army to face the blunt.

Moreover, our nation also had to understand that this has to happen, talking and negotiating is done with.

Armies fight, they don't negotiate!
Thanks.

 

[zraver]

Thanks for the clarification

Its how I see it, I think a lot of Pakistanis get loony over India, but I don't think they support terrorism per se.

Here i'll differ, though ISI have been handling the Afghan Talibans since longbut that doesn't mean they are friends with them, and yes as pointed out by the US regarding the unfriendly 'involvement' of ISI, measures have been taken, but sorry, nothing have been found to justify the claim, neither by the US nor by us.

There have been too many attacks and reports linking ISI to terrorism for me to believe other wise. The ISI is in my opinion playing its own game and holding Pakistan as its own personal human shield/ bank.

Well we have problems in FATA and steps had been taken, but you know what they had lot of impediments, most glaringly the drone attacks, how could you befriend those people if innocents are being killed and you are making/forcing the locals to become against you and us. So it had to stop.

People are killed by the US drones and Pakistani govt is made the scapegoat, and the Mr Mehsud have problem with our govt. You know it that everything is not done by use of force, stick and carrot has to work together, otherwise, no fruit is yield.

Talibans have to be eliminated, but not like this.

When the government and army of Pakistan failed to act decisively the US was forced to. Or do you expect us to allow the taliban to use FATA as a modern Laotian sanctuary? At the end of the day if the US, my ocuntry is forced to choose between dropping the hammer on a house giving refuse to our enemies or letting those enemies remain free to kill Americans and American allies then its time to go weapons free.

Killing one Talib and 10 others will result in an aggregated total increase of 9 x MANY more Talibans (the 9 x brothers, friends and families,who has died due to unjust)

You don't kill 1, you kill ten thousand in a short very compressed time frame. Both the US and Pakistan are equally guilty of playing soft here. Screw playing soft, put more drones in the air and let it be known by demonstration that we are always watching and at the slightest hint- BAM your dead, your family is dead, your neighbors might be dead and everything you ever were is now a crater in the ground.

At the end of the day, I don't care about people giving aid and comfort to people trying to kill my friends. If Pakistan wants the drone attacks to stop- send in the army for real and not for show.

And i agree with you in totality, the Army and the GoP has to be together on deciding the strategy, they have to work together.

The govt ask the Army to operate, while also reminding it of keeping the hands soft, and when the death toll rises, the govt retracts, leaving behind the Army to face the blunt.

Moreover, our nation also had to understand that this has to happen, talking and negotiating is done with.

Armies fight, they don't negotiate!
Thanks.

I agree, but I think the reason they are not on the same page is the ISI.

 

[blain2]

Why doesn't the army crush the insurgents? If there is a hidden hand its on the GoP in keeping the army back, or in the PA in not going full bore. The Army has the strength to suppress the region and deny it as a safe haven to the Taliban. If the Pakistani's would move in force and NATO would keep up its operations to seal the border and buy the poppie crops the taliban would be defeated in under a year.

How is an Army which draws almost 30% of the manpower from the Pashtuns go full bore against the tribals? The fact of the matter is that the fight in Afghanistan is no longer an anti-AQ campaign. It is a full-fledged Pashtun insurgency against what they perceive to be an occupation of their land and the fact that Karzai and team keep on harping to their American and ISAF friends that this is a "Pakistani" aided and abetted deal is serving no one's purpose. This whole deal requires a re-think. In order to stabilize Afghanistan by force, do you want to destabilize Pakistan completely? Because if this is the goal then keep on prodding and pushing Pakistan to go in guns blazing and continue increasing polarity within the country all the while Karzai sits smug in his chair not giving two hoots about the impact of this war and occupation of the country on the Pashtuns inside Afghanistan and in Pakistan.

Little Pashtun kids in Pakistani refugee camps are gung-ho about joining the militants and carrying out suicide attacks against Pakistani troops (their co-religionists) so to think that Pakistan will be able to crush the Pashtun support for the fight against occupation in Afghanistan is as wrong as one can be on this topic.

Pakistan is screwing itself. The FATA is only a cancer because either the GoP or PA allows it to remain so.

Read above. Its not as simple as you make it out to be. FATA problem is interlinked with what is happening in Afghanistan. Until that is fixed, FATA cannot be fixed. The people who live in FATA do not care about the so-called Durrand line. To them that area all the way out to Kandahar is their land. You suppress one by occupation, the others will react. This has been the reality of the world's largest nomadic group. Already Afghan Pashtuns are being captured in Pakistan in acts of terrorism. So this is a Pashtun problem and not one only inside of FATA.

 

[Xeric]

Its how I see it, I think a lot of Pakistanis get loony over India, but I don't think they support terrorism per se.

No one in Pakistan nor in this world supports terrorism in any form, period!

There have been too many attacks and reports linking ISI to terrorism for me to believe other wise. The ISI is in my opinion playing its own game and holding Pakistan as its own personal human shield/ bank.

Come up with a solid proof, ISI is all yours then.

When the government and army of Pakistan failed to act decisively the US was forced to. Or do you expect us to allow the taliban to use FATA as a modern Laotian sanctuary? At the end of the day if the US, my ocuntry is forced to choose between dropping the hammer on a house giving refuse to our enemies or letting those enemies remain free to kill Americans and American allies then its time to go weapons free.

Agreed, but i wonder why you people worry about things like collateral damage, human rights, war crimes and torture the MOST!!

You don't kill 1, you kill ten thousand in a short very compressed time frame. Both the US and Pakistan are equally guilty of playing soft here. Screw playing soft, put more drones in the air and let it be known by demonstration that we are always watching and at the slightest hint- BAM your dead, your family is dead, your neighbors might be dead and everything you ever were is now a crater in the ground.

What a soldiery approach i must say.
Now i got the answer why the Americans are so popular all around the world and why people 'praise' you as such.

And if i am not mistaken it was you who called Hitler as a devil and Ghettos as a black stigma on the human race's face?
Good luck!

At the end of the day, I don't care about people giving aid and comfort to people trying to kill my friends. If Pakistan wants the drone attacks to stop- send in the army for real and not for show.

That is not a guud and advisable way to ask some to work for you, is it?

I agree, but I think the reason they are not on the same page is the ISI.

Prove it!
That's how you'll catch it from the neck or else keep on publishing the reports and claims.
Chill

 

[roadrunner]

How is an Army which draws almost 30% of the manpower from the Pashtuns go full bore against the tribals? The fact of the matter is that the fight in Afghanistan is no longer an anti-AQ campaign. It is a full-fledged Pashtun insurgency against what they perceive to be an occupation of their land and the fact that Karzai and team keep on harping to their American and ISAF friends that this is a "Pakistani" aided and abetted deal is serving no one's purpose. This whole deal requires a re-think. In order to stabilize Afghanistan by force, do you want to destabilize Pakistan completely? Because if this is the goal then keep on prodding and pushing Pakistan to go in guns blazing and continue increasing polarity within the country all the while Karzai sits smug in his chair not giving two hoots about the impact of this war and occupation of the country on the Pashtuns inside Afghanistan and in Pakistan.

Little Pashtun kids in Pakistani refugee camps are gung-ho about joining the militants and carrying out suicide attacks against Pakistani troops (their co-religionists) so to think that Pakistan will be able to crush the Pashtun support for the fight against occupation in Afghanistan is as wrong as one can be on this topic.

This is good stuff. I'd add only that drone strikes does Pakistan no favours at all, but only increases the anarchy, in addition to going in guns blazing. I'd also say it's not just Afghan refugees that are doing this. It is Pakistanis as well who are being targeted unfairly by their accounts - they see their own forces complicit in this targeting.

Would the US bomb American cities to get at a terrorist covert ideology? You can bet they'd use no big weaponry. Only stealth. Pakistan shouldn't be using any heavy weaponry in this fight.

Education, development, end to the drone strikes, covert ops to remove imminent dangers until re-ed is completed. That is the way to avoid polarization.

Read above. Its not as simple as you make it out to be. FATA problem is interlinked with what is happening in Afghanistan. Until that is fixed, FATA cannot be fixed. The people who live in FATA do not care about the so-called Durrand line. To them that area all the way out to Kandahar is their land. You suppress one by occupation, the others will react. This has been the reality of the world's largest nomadic group. Already Afghan Pashtuns are being captured in Pakistan in acts of terrorism. So this is a Pashtun problem and not one only inside of FATA.

Your knowledge of the tribal areas is better than most on here.

 

[blain2]

How refreshing.

Succinct and to the point. Nothing like an American armor NCO. The combat arm of decision.

I concur. It really is that simple and a matter of will that extends back to late 2001 when you assisted the retreat of our enemies and (specifically) your friends and mentees-the taliban gov't of Afghanistan and it's army.

Two months to reach that western border and do what armies of prudent countries do when nations adjacent to them are at war-seal their borders.

No, I don't expect it could be perfect-ever. And yes, it would have also entailed patrolling/sweeping the afghan refugee camps and other areas further in from your borders for those that slip through but the difference should and would've been immeasurable.

Of course many didn't cross into Afghanistan. This insurgency however, never happens without Pakistan coming alive as a support base and sanctuary.

SANCTUARY- remember the word. It can connote both permanent and temporary rest and respite. Pakistan affords both and has since the beginning of this war despite it's own loudly-professed pontifications to the unimpeachable certainty of it's sovereign rights.

Long since quietly having forgotten their sovereign responsibilities to themselves and others.

S-2,

Your points about sanctuaries and advice about what Armies of the so-called prudent countries are devoid of ground realities.

You talk about sovereign responsibility yet fail to realize that you cannot selectively apply the principles of sovereignty after the US has disregarded another country's sovereignty by invading it and occupying it. The AQ cadres after whom you invaded the country are long gone and nowhere around in that country or even in the near by region (probably hiding in CARs) because even inside of Pakistan, there is such an extensive CIA intelligence setup that you would have picked up at least some chatter, yet nobody has.

You and I can sit here for days and talk about why the Pashtuns should agree with the so-called concept of sovereignty and not aid and abet other Pashtuns inside of Afghanistan yet the reality is that they are a people under the gun. They have never lived under one for as long as one can go back in time and they are not going to do so this time around either. Read my post above as to what drives the Pashtun inside of Pakistan and in Afghanistan. This is something that neither the US/ISAF nor PA can suppress without further destabilizing Pakistan and in turn Iran and India.

I concur. It really is that simple and a matter of will that extends back to late 2001 when you assisted the retreat of our enemies and (specifically) your friends and mentees-the taliban gov't of Afghanistan and it's army.

S-2

This is all very nice and fine of you to dump the title of "friends" of Taliban in our lap when you yourselves were supportive of having a singular polity inside of Afghanistan to ensure the success of the TAP pipeline (the GoP had tacit US approval of this and if you do not buy this then I suggest simply picking up Ahmed Rashid's book "Taliban" to read about the contacts that these so-called enemies of yours had with the Bush Administration). The only time they became your enemies was when you needed to hit something or someone for the 9/11 excesses.

These same Taliban (I would suggest we start using the term "Pashtuns" to face the reality of what this war has become) will not be defeated by Pakistan trying to wean them off from supporting their kinsmen inside of Afghanistan.

 

[blain2]

When the government and army of Pakistan failed to act decisively the US was forced to. Or do you expect us to allow the taliban to use FATA as a modern Laotian sanctuary? At the end of the day if the US, my ocuntry is forced to choose between dropping the hammer on a house giving refuse to our enemies or letting those enemies remain free to kill Americans and American allies then its time to go weapons free.

So what do you think happens when you drop a bomb on an entire house and kill someone else's kith and kin? Do you think he will allow you or your loved ones to live in safety? You are inciting them further. The problem is one of occupation and political dispensation. Not every Pashtun picking up a gun and fighting with the US is on the wrong side you know. You went in to liberate Kuwait from an "occupation". The Pashtuns see your stay inside Afghanistan as no different than Iraqi troops inside of Kuwait. The funny thing (if there is anything funny) is that most of the labour in Kuwait that got displaced because of the war came from the Pashtun areas of Pakistan...so I am sure they have double the gripe about "occupations".

Please clear your sights and realize what you are saying before you say it. Pashtuns are not the same thing as AQ. Pakistani or Afghan Pashtuns have never attacked the US. The US has invaded Afghanistan to go after Al-Qaeda. The AQ are no longer there so now you have started a fight with the Pashtuns because they are not happy with the political dispensation that you have come up with in Afghanistan. This is the crux of the issue.

They will continue to kill you and us Pakistanis because they believe that we all are on the wrong side because the former is occupying and the latter is abetting that occupation of their lands. Do realize that while no one at the UN has the courage to say this in the face of US opposition, under the UN charter, what the Pashtuns are doing is a clear cut example of their right to liberate themselves from occupation. You call them bad guys and by all sorts of names but they are entitled to that fight. If Pakistan's pashtun's cared about these nationalistic lines and cared about the borders then we would not have a problem of people coming and going. The reality is that they don't. They never have and you suddenly coming into the region telling them to respect the borders of Pakistan and Afghanistan does not change that for them.

Take all of the above as an insight from a Pakistani and don't rush to judge me as a sympathizer. More than you, it is in my interest to see peace in Pakistan and an end to this bloodshed that is spilling over into the streets of my country. I just do not see a military solution to this no matter what anyone here says. The Pashtuns are too large a group of people to be fought under the pretext of war against the Taliban. They will outlive both the Pakistani and Afghan states and will certainly outlast the US occupation of their country. What is to our benefit is to work out an exit strategy for the US that ensures that the interests of all interested can be accommodated (this certainly includes the Afghans (Pashtuns and the Tajik camp (among others), Pakistan, and the US). This can be done because a Pashtun, regardless of how illiterate, is a pragmatic individual. Pakistan and Afghanistan have always made deals with them to get beyond issues. The US and ISAF need to do the same instead of trying to impose their own will upon these people by branding them this way or that way.