So how good is Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter? Analysis from RUSI think-tank’s Justin Bronk

[CriticalThought]

I will confine my answer to your first paragraph. You are absolutely right in that the IAF will pull back its force barring a token one from its FOBs and fight from behind. It will be the most sensible strategy as most FOBs with in a couple of hundred miles will be gone in 24 hours due to long range stand off weapons. However it does put PAF at a disadvantage as well. Being held back means more time to reach station to engave enemy allowing yime for them to straff close to the border areas and return. How does one counter this? You can have planes take off with a 4+2 configuration plaus a central tank and half feul refuel in air and loiter on patrol. You cannot have ARPs anywhere near the war zone as they will need protecting as will your AWACs. With good coordination the leader holds back and directs planes towards bogeys with secure radio and radars off.
Enemy enters aCombo of 16s and JFT encounters. 5he 16s use their EW Suite to take care of the enemy jwmmers and JFTs let off their arsenal and immediately return to base. The second wave is ready and in air to approach the area in 2-3 minutes to take care of any stragglers. So attrition ratez may be higher on the enemy side. The enemy may also institute countermeasures, however I doubt one will remain in the arena once the missiles are let loose. So the advantage may be for the SUs to ready themselves into positions to counter the onslaught and take on fighters as they enter the arena. They will will not have that time depending on how muchctime PAF takes to get the sefond wave of fighters. If it comes on before the SUs recover from the original onslaught then IAF will have no option but to return to base and look for another opportunity. Attrition on both sides depends on who firse first when they fire ie in the missile's kill zone or on the periphery, what the robustness of the missile is against countermeasures and experience of the pilots. Isuspect there may b3 wome attrition on the offensive side depending on how quickly they can spot the attackers and this is where the game will lie. If they cannot then it will be high attrition especially if the missiles function to their full capability. For the defenders the real game is not to be spotted . If they fail in this they will become vulnerable.
My own assessment therefors feel free to shred it to bits. It is after all just my opinion.
Regards.
A


But why fight at all. Little brother life is too short to be fighting all the time. If you disagree with him explain cooly why you disgree and if he still persists in hos view point agree to disagree and move on. I spend most of my time on this forum dissipating fights. why????.Lets be friends here and move on please.
Kind regards
A

Sir, our FOBs will be at the mercy of Indian SRBMs, and land launched Brahmos. Before they bring in the SU-30s, they will soften us up with simply missiles. Now Pak forces may draw the line at this and go nuclear if their bombardment causes such significant damage. But today, we are surrounded on both East and West. There is a good chance that Indian armored thrust will be accompanied by sorties from the West. This is a VERY real concern and a scenario that must keep.our leaders awake at night.

 

[Dash]

OK! So you want to talk, lets talk. Tell me first what you know about the JFT. By your own post parameters need to be set first.
Secondly set you scenario in which the IAF will configure an attack, how you will load your platform and what will be the strategy. Then let us play it out here.

Two scenarios.
1. If IAF goes for strike.
2. If PAF come for strike.

I will comment on point 1.

If IAF goes for strike then 2 further scenarios come into picture. 1. Whether it’s an air raid or it is mission oriented.

In the second scenario which is very likely it will be be assisted by SIGINT, HUMINT, COMMINT and in latest term CYBERINT.

your air defence in GOBs and FOBs are the first ones to be tackled in a punitive army strike. Not by IAF.

IAF will use jaguars and Mirages before it actually goes for air superiority with MKIs . The first and foremost targets will be your own radar bases for OPED.

I have categorically denied a situation where MKIS will be pressed into services where they will engage in a dog fight with F 16s.

Now your turn

Give your ideas for the second scenario. Let’s see what you got.

 

[!eon]

I agree a bit harsh. But come onnnnnnn!!!!! Little brother you cannot come on the forum blast the Block 3 without justification(specs unknown) as we do not know its current configuration and wont know till it is out in 2019-20. Till then a lot can change. We have the SU series in mind with our developments so I think it is fair to say we have enough to counter it. Whether it is going to be enough or not needs to be seen. Now lets move on shall we?
A

I can't get that .. I should respect a person who has no manners ?

I am not bashing block 3 at all. It was just maneuverability comparison between jf and SU-30 with some other guy.

 

[Dash]

And @araz I’m not going to the operational level of IDing and things like that but if you go then you are most welcome.

 

[araz]

I can't get that .. I should respect a person who has no manners ?

I am not bashing block 3 at all. It was just maneuverability comparison between jf and SU-30 with some other guy.

OK. What I said was in a lighter mode. However the problem with all the talk of maneouverability is regarding the maneouverability of the missile which follows you. If you are in the kill zone of the missile the only thing that might save you is your electronic countermeasures. So yes maneouverability is good in principle but in a WVRscenario it is not going to help that much. HAVING SAID THAT the JFTwill never be as maneouverable as the SU series. I hope this now finishes off this debate.
A

Sir, our FOBs will be at the mercy of Indian SRBMs, and land launched Brahmos. Before they bring in the SU-30s, they will soften us up with simply missiles. Now Pak forces may draw the line at this and go nuclear if their bombardment causes such significant damage. But today, we are surrounded on both East and West. There is a good chance that Indian armored thrust will be accompanied by sorties from the West. This is a VERY real concern and a scenario that must keep.our leaders awake at night.

The scenario painted is true. But the same holds true for the other side. The real danger is does one wait to find out if the missile coming your way is Nuke tipped or not or do you respond. Secondly if you are going to respond do you just bake the FOBs nearby or do you bake all the MOBs in 4ange of your missiles. Remember our solid rocket missiles will be prepared earlier than indian liquid fuel propelled ones. Even if it is Nuke tipped we have a plethora of sub kilton Nuke devices which can be used and the damage from it will be limited(or so we think!!!!). Do we then go the whole hog and throw in the kitchen sink or respond with like for like?. At this stage it will become a free for all and there will be a lot of charcoal to pick up after wards. By Western end do you mean from Iran/Afghanistan. I think a twin directional attack will result in an immediate BM(preferably Nuked tip)response to the Western port of origin. However the interesting bit is an attack from the South on top of the Sea with a dummy attack from the East which returns as soon as response is made. That will have to be negotiated with AD while we mount a response with a battle on the sea.
The recent opening of the MOB is to cover that eventuality
A

Two scenarios.
1. If IAF goes for strike.
2. If PAF come for strike.

I will comment on point 1.

If IAF goes for strike then 2 further scenarios come into picture. 1. Whether it’s an air raid or it is mission oriented.

In the second scenario which is very likely it will be be assisted by SIGINT, HUMINT, COMMINT and in latest term CYBERINT.

your air defence in GOBs and FOBs are the first ones to be tackled in a punitive army strike. Not by IAF.

IAF will use jaguars and Mirages before it actually goes for air superiority with MKIs . The first and foremost targets will be your own radar bases for OPED.

I have categorically denied a situation where MKIS will be pressed into services where they will engage in a dog fight with F 16s.

Now your turn

Give your ideas for the second scenario. Let’s see what you got.

First allow me 5o respond to your post. If the article from 2017December is true True your M2KHs are still not upgraded as you are having a problem with the French over a 10 million dollar question of who pays the money either HAL or IAF. So in short I am assuming they are currently not upgraded and are the H.variants. We haveAWACs in air and a response is launched by BVR equipped JFTs with SD10A and a couple of Bl52s directing the pack. Even if you jam the Radars the JF5s will be difficult to detect. Frankly the jags will be fodder. The M2kH although still old but with a decent A2A inventory. I suspect you will get A JFT or 2 but you will be downed.
On a 4 ship trip you will not have anything to take home. We could lose upto 2 JFTs although 1 is a more likely scenario as the JFT leading the attack on the Jags will be downed by the high flying M2H. The other one will get one of the M2H and the last one may be a case of either return to base with its weapons unfired or gone either to the chasing JFT or the reserve 16.
A

 

[!eon]

HAVING SAID THAT the JFTwill never be as maneouverable as the SU series

That's what I said,
and then came a Mr. with no manners, want me to bite dust, then gone as he came. That's all it was.

Thanks for quoting .. now that Sunday is gone, so is my weekly time on this forum.. see you later.

 

[araz]

That what I said.
and then came a Mr. with no manner, want me to bite dust, then gone as he came. That's all it was.
Thanks for quoting .. now that Sunday is gone, so is my weekly time on this forum.. see u later.

Great. Go in peace and come back happy. Have a nice week.
A

 

[Dash]

First allow me 5o respond to your post. If the article from 2017December is true True your M2KHs are still not upgraded as you are having a problem with the French over a 10 million dollar question of who pays the money either HAL or IAF. So in short I am assuming they are currently not upgraded and are the H.variants. We haveAWACs in air and a response is launched by BVR equipped JFTs with SD10A and a couple of Bl52s directing the pack. Even if you jam the Radars the JF5s will be difficult to detect. Frankly the jags will be fodder. The M2kH although still old but with a decent A2A inventory. I suspect you will get A JFT or 2 but you will be downed.
On a 4 ship trip you will not have anything to take home. We could lose upto 2 JFTs although 1 is a more likely scenario as the JFT leading the attack on the Jags will be downed by the high flying M2H. The other one will get one of the M2H and the last one may be a case of either return to base with its weapons unfired or gone either to the chasing JFT or the reserve 16.

OK. What I said was in a lighter mode. However the problem with all the talk of maneouverability is regarding the maneouverability of the missile which follows you. If you are in the kill zone of the missile the only thing that might save you is your electronic countermeasures. So yes maneouverability is good in principle but in a WVRscenario it is not going to help that much. HAVING SAID THAT the JFTwill never be as maneouverable as the SU series. I hope this now finishes off this debate.
A


The scenario painted is true. But the same holds true for the other side. The real danger is does one wait to find out if the missile coming your way is Nuke tipped or not or do you respond. Secondly if you are going to respond do you just bake the FOBs nearby or do you bake all the MOBs in 4ange of your missiles. Remember our solid rocket missiles will be prepared earlier than indian liquid fuel propelled ones. Even if it is Nuke tipped we have a plethora of sub kilton Nuke devices which can be used and the damage from it will be limited(or so we think!!!!). Do we then go the whole hog and throw in the kitchen sink or respond with like for like?. At this stage it will become a free for all and there will be a lot of charcoal to pick up after wards. By Western end do you mean from Iran/Afghanistan. I think a twin directional attack will result in an immediate BM(preferably Nuked tip)response to the Western port of origin. However the interesting bit is an attack from the South on top of the Sea with a dummy attack from the East which returns as soon as response is made. That will have to be negotiated with AD while we mount a response with a battle on the sea.
The recent opening of the MOB is to cover that eventuality
A


First allow me 5o respond to your post. If the article from 2017December is true True your M2KHs are still not upgraded as you are having a problem with the French over a 10 million dollar question of who pays the money either HAL or IAF. So in short I am assuming they are currently not upgraded and are the H.variants. We haveAWACs in air and a response is launched by BVR equipped JFTs with SD10A and a couple of Bl52s directing the pack. Even if you jam the Radars the JF5s will be difficult to detect. Frankly the jags will be fodder. The M2kH although still old but with a decent A2A inventory. I suspect you will get A JFT or 2 but you will be downed.
On a 4 ship trip you will not have anything to take home. We could lose upto 2 JFTs although 1 is a more likely scenario as the JFT leading the attack on the Jags will be downed by the high flying M2H. The other one will get one of the M2H and the last one may be a case of either return to base with its weapons unfired or gone either to the chasing JFT or the reserve 16.
A

Not a fan not kind but two things got my attention (posting from cellphone so limitations)

That you are challenging Indian air defence and second that you ASSUMED of a flight scenario without norm gets me tizzy.

Anyway I’m talking about an operational scenario as offered by you and I will not go into the technicalities of who offers what and who gets what.

On any given day you are bound to loose because I know the depth of your planning.

You neither have the human skills nor the technology to beat Indian Air Force.

Sorry to say, I expected more,

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The moment Pakistan got the BVR we were set from nice defensive prespective
JF17 , 4-5 SD-10 Long range BVR missiles and that is more then enough

Now the Pilots just need to see the Truck size Indian planes , and just press the missile launch button with ease and due to bulky size of Indian planes job is fairly easy for SD-10 with 95% accuracy

 

[A.Muqeet khan]

No link but the man responsible for the initial jf17 project is my personal friend. He actually resigned when Zardari ordered him to scrap the project. Other officers took over and told Zardari to f off

i wish he could have told that to zardari himself

 

[ziaulislam]

Of course they are equipped with BVR and then WVR.
I didn't bring dog fight into discussion, but chances are there even if 0.01%. US Air force did make that mistake, thinking dog fights part of history and paid for that in early days of Vietnam war.

You for relaize that is terrible example . comparing today bvr with 40+ year old technology ....
The same war also meant that heavier aircraft were at disadvantage of smaller nimbler fighters

 

[ziaulislam]

Sorry didn’t get you are you saying Flankers are valnurable at low speed or they are sitting ducks at low speed?

He is confusing low speed airshow maneuvers with air combat ...you cant lose so much energy and than expect to survive

 

[Dash]

He is confusing low speed airshow maneuvers with air combat ...you cant lose so much energy and than expect to survive

Ok

 

[Trango Towers]

i wish he could have told that to zardari himself

Oh he did but not in so many words.

 

[TopCat]

The moment Pakistan got the BVR we were set from nice defensive prespective
JF17 , 4-5 SD-10 Long range BVR missiles and that is more then enough

Now the Pilots just need to see the Truck size Indian planes , and just press the missile launch button with ease and due to bulky size of Indian planes job is fairly easy for SD-10 with 95% accuracy

Its that easy....