Skewed Islamic culture hampers growth and success

[Bilal9]

I really don't think Islam encourages career women in the way you think it does. Using Khadijah (ra) as an example isn't good either because she had her business as a result of her deceased previous husbands and that also was also present before Islam. Whereas the majority of Prophet's (pbuh) wives did not work or seek to emulate Khadijah in that. Rather they stayed at home AFAIK.

This whole pursuit of pushing women into careers is just a materialistic endeavour to increase GDP. And having the highest GDP is really a good sign of success. Some of you really want it but if these dreams of women mass entering the workforce and having careers like men come true then you're going to start having more social problems just like the west.

Appreciate your thoughts but that may be paranoia to a degree.

Our values as Muslims (especially concerning womens' position in society) do not ape those of the West. Turkey and Indonesia are both more liberal Muslim countries than Bangladesh or Pakistan, but the entry of their females in the workforce did not see huge social problems - none that I can see.

"Pushing" women into education and workplace just does not improve GDP, it improves the family, as educated mothers raise better educated children and help reduce over population, which can be a serious issue. A trimmer, balanced - highly-educated workforce is a necessity when a country like Bangladesh needs to graduate beyond LDC status and not be subject to the middle income trap, which afflicts many ASEAN and Middle Eastern countries. Quality, not quantity of workers, should be the goal.

 

[PakFactor]

Appreciate your thoughts but that may be paranoia to a degree.

Our values as Muslims (especially concerning womens' position in society) do not ape those of the West. Turkey and Indonesia are both more liberal Muslim countries than Bangladesh or Pakistan, but the entry of their females in the workforce did not see huge social problems - none that I can see.

"Pushing" women into education and workplace just does not improve GDP, it improves the family, as educated mothers raise better educated children and help reduce over population, which can be a serious issue. A trimmer, balanced - highly-educated workforce is a necessity when a country like Bangladesh needs to graduate beyond LDC status and not be subject to the middle income trap, which afflicts many ASEAN and Middle Eastern countries. Quality, not quantity of workers, should be the goal.

While I agree with you, I wanted to add one point. For Muslim women that work there must be an acceptable work-life balance. As I know in the West some who do long hours and the commute back and forth leaves no time to raise proper kids and/or take care of the house hold. Often times this neglect can cause strains on the family.

While increasing household income is good and all -- shouldn't be the sole motive.

 

[Numerous]

Appreciate your thoughts but that may be paranoia to a degree.

Our values as Muslims (especially concerning womens' position in society) do not ape those of the West. Turkey and Indonesia are both more liberal Muslim countries than Bangladesh or Pakistan, but the entry of their females in the workforce did not see huge social problems - none that I can see.

"Pushing" women into education and workplace just does not improve GDP, it improves the family, as educated mothers raise better educated children and help reduce over population, which can be a serious issue. A trimmer, balanced - highly-educated workforce is a necessity when a country like Bangladesh needs to graduate beyond LDC status and not be subject to the middle income trap, which afflicts many ASEAN and Middle Eastern countries. Quality, not quantity of workers, should be the goal.

It's not paranoia, I think you simply have a very rosy picture of pushing women into careers.

Aiming to become like Turkey isn't good either. They are a nation who literally had secularism forced upon them and they are not good at many Islamic things. I am not sure why you view them as a success story? They literally had hijab banned in certain places and still the Europeans didn't accept them. And even after pursuing so much haram, whilst I say this respectfully - they are still a mediocre country at best compared to the richer countries. Yeh Pakistan isn't exactly rich either but aiming to become another Turkey is not a good aim.

Families aren't improved by mothers being absent from their house. Some women work to survive or make ends meet which I am okay with but that is not the type of thing you are trying to push. Then concentrate on educating the men better so they fill the lacking quality because inevitably they are the chief breadwinners and normal workforce. The things you arguing for is literally to boost GDP growth.

 

[Bilal9]

Ihlan Omar is awful. She is literally married to a non-Muslim. The ex-wife of that non-Muslim divorced him because she said he was having an affair with Omar. Secondly Omar openly supports the lgbt movement and she has called parts of the sharia barbaric. You say she tries to help Muslims but she literally tried to sanction our Brunei brothers after they tried to add some laws against lgbt.

No Muslim man should want muslim women to become like this vile creature. Being dead is better to have a wife or daughter who is like this.

Let's not focus on personal details and one-off details. When did we last have a Muslima as a US congresswoman, one of maybe two/three ? You want to shoot her down because she is a politician and has to make difficult choices? She's one of the very few Muslima Congresswomen we actually have.

There will be more Muslima Congresswomen on the way - you want to end those chances?

Calling her horrible is like falling into the hands of Islamophobes' bag-of-tricks.

In my eyes - she has to take positions on some things that may not be completely "Halal". But big picture is where it's at. LGBT lobby is extremely strong in the US. You have to look past those temporary alliances and look at the bigger goal. What should those bigger goals be? If Muslims want their voices heard, and want to have a seat at the Big Kid's table - this is how you go about it.

Look at the forest, not the trees.

While I agree with you, I wanted to add one point. For Muslim women that work there must be an acceptable work-life balance. As I know in the West some who do long hours and the commute back and forth leaves no time to raise proper kids and/or take care of the house hold. Often times this neglect can cause strains on the family.

While increasing household income is good and all -- shouldn't be the sole motive.

This is a valid concern. In Bangladesh, even for Apparel workers, there are Cafeteria meals, clinics and child-care that comes with their salary. If Apparel workers can get childcare, so can working corporate women. This is already accepted in larger companies and multi-national companies.

There are also older women who run childcare nurseries in their homes (inspected by the Govt. and NGO's).

These needs are not difficult to fulfill.

Work-life Balance is also a very valid concern, but money is needed for that balance too. One cannot enjoy time with family and make memories (often on vacation) unless one can really afford it.

 

[Numerous]

Let's not focus on personal details and one-off details. When did we last have a Muslima as a congresswoman, one of maybe two/three ? You want to shoot her down because she is a politician? She's one of the very few we actually have.

There will be more Muslima Congresswomen on the way - you want to end those chances?

Calling her horrible is like falling into the hands of Islamophobes' bag-of-tricks.

In my eyes - she has to take positions on some things that may not be completely "Halal". But big picture is where it's at. LGBT lobby is extremely strong in the US. You have to look past those temporary alliances and look at the bigger goal. What is it?

Look at the forest, not the trees.

What's point is there of a muslim congresswomen when she calls sharia barbaric and tries to pass bills to punish Muslims in other countries because they tried to practice islam better? What big picture is she trying to change? Is she trying to give dawah to the non-Muslim in her bed or dawah to Biden? The reality is that she's just another low life politician selling out her community and she has very little morals.

Yeh I want to end those chances. She's literally an enemy. Just because she has an arabic origin name and wears some weird sikh turban wannabee hijab doesn't mean I'm automatically going to support her. You have too low standards.

 

[Bilal9]

What's point is there of a muslim congresswomen when she calls sharia barbaric and tries to pass bills to punish Muslims in other countries because they tried to practice islam better? What big picture is she trying to change? Is she trying to give dawah to the non-Muslim in her bed or dawah to Biden? The reality is that she's just another low life politician selling out her community and she has very little morals.

Yeh I want to end those chances. She's literally an enemy. Just because she has an arabic origin name and wears some weird sikh turban wannabee hijab doesn't mean I'm automatically going to support her. You have too low standards.

Wow!

Okay time out.

I feel you have this extreme vendetta against her, I don't.

Yes my standards may be "too low". But they are still "my standards". Ilhan stands for a lot of things that I support. Including the cause of Palestine and Palestinians. The world runs on very different rules than some think it does.

Let's just agree to disagree, shall we? Until you become a voter in the US, that is....

 

[Bilal9]

Aiming to become like Turkey isn't good either. They are a nation who literally had secularism forced upon them and they are not good at many Islamic things. I am not sure why you view them as a success story? They literally had hijab banned in certain places and still the Europeans didn't accept them. And even after pursuing so much haram, whilst I say this respectfully - they are still a mediocre country at best compared to the richer countries. Yeh Pakistan isn't exactly rich either but aiming to become another Turkey is not a good aim.

I feel that you have quite a simplistic view of why Turkey went the secular way it did in its road to development. They certainly did not do it to gain "acceptance" by EU countries.

Recently this Ramadan, the Hagya Sophia was again opened up as a Mosque, does this mean they are "not good at many Islamic things"?

Banning Hijab selectively may have been a political decision made by a certain Turkish political party (maybe to stem the tide of extreme Islamists), I don't really know.

Turkey is one of the most prosperous Islamic countries, let's not fault them just because they choose not to wear their Islamic values on their sleeves. Have you visited Turkey? I have.

I feel Turkey has a wonderful balance of secular and Islamic values (the latter including Hijab which they don't really force on their people, which is what the Sunnah actually says). Women should wear their Hijab because women feel that this is a look of modesty they should pursue themselves. This cannot and should not be mandated by the state.

Turkey's GNP in PPP terms is close to that of France and the UK. Their economic position is far away better than either Bangladesh or Pakistan. They are certainly a role model for an aspiring Muslim country like Bangladesh. You can of course disagree.

Brothers @cabatli_53 and @T-SaGe would you agree with my views about Turkey?

 

[Bilal9]

Does she already have a husband ?

Yup that is right, even 2 of my sisters ( I only have 2 sisters) are masters degree holder (Medical Doctor specialist is similar with Master right ??) , exceeding my education......

Yes brother she got married very young and is a mother of two I believe - we will find you other matches Insha'Allah.

Your family situation echoes that of many families in my personal and friend circles. We are surrounded by educated women.

 

[Indos]

I really don't think Islam encourages career women in the way you think it does. Using Khadijah (ra) as an example isn't good either because she had her business as a result of her deceased previous husband and that also was also present before Islam and her marriage to the Prophet (pbuh). Whereas the majority of Prophet's (pbuh) wives did not work or seek to emulate Khadijah in that. Rather they stayed at home AFAIK. The vast majority of the women of the sahaba did not seek to become businessmen or have imitate the men in careers.

This whole pursuit of pushing women into careers is just a materialistic endeavour to increase GDP. And having the highest GDP is not really a good sign of success. Some of you really want it but if these dreams of women mass entering the workforce and having careers like men come true then you're going to start having more social problems just like the west.

The reason of prophet Muhammad wifes stayed at home (despite Aishah is basically leading a military force against Ali in some period that shows she is politically active) is due to verse in Quran. The verse is only for prophet wife, but of course Muslim like Taliban and other could interpret it differently and it is why they are not supportive on women education and work life.

 

[Indos]

I think you are misunderstanding the verse. These people that u call Christians are not true Christians or believers, they are mushrik as they do shirk. The verse clearly puts believers above those who deny the truth, so do u suggest today's muslims are ones that deny truth and Allah put these Christians above? Please avoid correlating events with Quran that have no clear correlation and also be very careful in interpreting the Quran.

Of course they are not true Christian, but at least they can still be regarded as Jesus follower compared to Hindu, Buddhish, Communist, and Atheist.

Quran verses are many, of course if we havent read all we cannot interpret it, but I do have read them all so at least I am eligible to do so, despite no human beside prophet has the best understanding of Quran, but it shouldnt make us avoid interpretating Quran verse, as any time we read Quran in meaning basically we have our own conclution about the meaning, and the degree of interpretation is vary between Muslim in term of which one is closer to the real truth.

There is also verse saying these that relates to your question of why Muslim is not on the top now as we were in the past.

Quran Ali Imran verse 140

if you have suffered a blow, they too have suffered one like it. We deal out such days among people in turn, for God to find out who truly believes, for Him to choose martyrs from among you- God does not love evildoers-

Quran Ar-Raad verse 11

For man are angels of alternating duties, in front and behind him, who guard him by Allah's command; indeed Allah does not change His favour upon any nation until they change their own condition; and when Allah wills misfortune for a nation, it cannot be repelled; and they do not have any supporter besides Him.

-----------------------------------------

And yup previous verse I brought in latest post can have other meaning which is more about the degree in term of metaphysics, so not necessarily talking about degree in human perspective that base on wealth, technology, and others and it could be related more to specifically Today Muslim than Today Christian (that doesnt practice true teaching of Jesus (prophet Isa)

 

[Indos]

Appreciate your thoughts but that may be paranoia to a degree.

Our values as Muslims (especially concerning womens' position in society) do not ape those of the West. Turkey and Indonesia are both more liberal Muslim countries than Bangladesh or Pakistan, but the entry of their females in the workforce did not see huge social problems - none that I can see.

"Pushing" women into education and workplace just does not improve GDP, it improves the family, as educated mothers raise better educated children and help reduce over population, which can be a serious issue. A trimmer, balanced - highly-educated workforce is a necessity when a country like Bangladesh needs to graduate beyond LDC status and not be subject to the middle income trap, which afflicts many ASEAN and Middle Eastern countries. Quality, not quantity of workers, should be the goal.

I think saying Indonesia in the same page with Turkey in term of liberal mind set is not really right in my understanding. I would say we should aim to modern mind set of Islam, some thing that relates to free thinking cultures like happening in the golden age of Islam history rather than cultures that stop free thinking and rely all Quran and Hadith interpretation on very old generation of Islam Ulama, so it makes Islamic schoolars only good on remembering, not thinking and it will affect the society that has similar kind of mind set. This that make Muslim world down from top position in the past according to some scholars.

I think we know Modern Islam teaching right ? Unlike traditional Islam. Modern Islam is our way to get Muslim world reach the top position IMO.

I think I have put this video many times here in PDF to show that Islam in Indonesia is quite to good standard and we are also liberating women to wear hijab or not based on their own will which I see fit with what the Quran teach us

This is in Bogor, West Java. We dont force women to wear hijab, except in Aceh province where I see as wrong.

 

[TNT]

Allah gave my nation aka Bangladesh access to the oceans and somewhat fertile land and just big enough land for growth. So I'm pretty sure Allah wants the best lol , but my people did not make the most use out of it and rather decided to become corrupt and steal money.


But seriously though , the Muslim world needs to reform and become better and more free thinking Muslims if we want to be the best and technologically advanced.

The Christians in Europe went through reformation but we did not , no wonder the Europeans kicked our asses when they found out how to use science and inventions for there own benefits.

Its wrong to compare the Europeans reform with muslims. Christianity in Europe was basically muahrikeen. Their Bibles have versions and changed by every pope. Their beliefs and deeds became absurd to educating Europeans and the church lost its grip. Today mlst Europeans call themselves athiests and churches are empty.
Islam is a different case. Muslims ruled the world when they followed the techings of Quran but became weak, corrupt and slaves when their imaan weakened. The Quran is in its original form but the followers are not acting upon it. We try to mimick the west and that damaged us further. The reform that we need is to reinvigorate the true teachings of Islam. To become good and upright humans, to not do haram, to strive for truth.

 

[SpaceMan18]

Its wrong to compare the Europeans reform with muslims. Christianity in Europe was basically muahrikeen. Their Bibles have versions and changed by every pope. Their beliefs and deeds became absurd to educating Europeans and the church lost its grip. Today mlst Europeans call themselves athiests and churches are empty.
Islam is a different case. Muslims ruled the world when they followed the techings of Quran but became weak, corrupt and slaves when their imaan weakened. The Quran is in its original form but the followers are not acting upon it. We try to mimick the west and that damaged us further. The reform that we need is to reinvigorate the true teachings of Islam. To become good and upright humans, to not do haram, to strive for truth.

You know why you're able to use your device rn ? Yeah cause some White dude in Britain decided to invent it lol.

West Asians to East Asians lost their innovative edge which caused us to lose against highly industrialized Europeans and they fought each other which made them even stronger.

Muslims were OP against Europeans for a while , but then came the industrial revolution and that made Europeans OP against anyone.

If we want the Muslim world to make a comeback we need innovation, inventions made by the Muslim world

 

[TNT]

Of course they are not true Christian, but at least they can still be regarded as Jesus follower compared to Hindu, Buddhish, Communist, and Atheist.

Quran verses are many, of course if we havent read all we cannot interpret it, but I do have read them all so at least I am eligible to do so, despite no human beside prophet has the best understanding of Quran, but it shouldnt make us avoid interpretating Quran verse, as any time we read Quran in meaning basically we have our own conclution about the meaning, and the degree of interpretation is vary between Muslim in term of which one is closer to the real truth.

There is also verse saying these that relates to your question of why Muslim is not on the top now as we were in the past.

Quran Ali Imran verse 140

if you have suffered a blow, they too have suffered one like it. We deal out such days among people in turn, for God to find out who truly believes, for Him to choose martyrs from among you- God does not love evildoers-

Quran Ar-Raad verse 11

For man are angels of alternating duties, in front and behind him, who guard him by Allah's command; indeed Allah does not change His favour upon any nation until they change their own condition; and when Allah wills misfortune for a nation, it cannot be repelled; and they do not have any supporter besides Him.

-----------------------------------------

And yup previous verse I brought in latest post can have other meaning which is more about the degree in term of metaphysics, so not necessarily talking about degree in human perspective that base on wealth, technology, and others and it could be related more to specifically Today Muslim than Today Christian (that doesnt practice true teaching of Jesus (prophet Isa)

My dear brother you are wrong again. They can never be regarded as follower of Jesus AS. Go do a survey and 90℅ of Europeans will say they are athiests, so howcome u call them followers of jesus?? The ones that call themselves followers of jesus are not followers of jesus but mushriks. They made Jesus the son of God, they dont follow the message of jesus, so how u call these mushrik as followers of Jesus? Can a muslim be follower of Prophet SAW if they call him the son of God (naozibillah)????
Just because you have read Quran doesn't mean ur eligible to create ur own interpretation and correlate it with current times. For that you need to be a proper scholar. There are authentic explanations of Quran available and i would suggest u read them before assuming an interpretation of ur own. The interpretation u gave of surah Al Imran verse 55 is totally wrong and u should do astaghafar. Go read interpretations available online and ull find the verse talks about believers and not ur so called mushrik jesus followers.
The believers are the ones who truly believe in the message of Allah, that have been brought down by a number of messengers. We as muslims believe in each and every messenger and the true message they brought. We are followers of Adam AS, we r followers of Moses AS, Jesus AS and all till last Prophet SAW. When jesus comes back, u think the Europeans will be the one following him or the muslims? Islam was brought first by Adam AS and till the last Prophet SAW and a believer believes in all the Prophets and the one true message of wahdaniyat.

 

[TNT]

You know why you're able to use your device rn ? Yeah cause some White dude in Britain decided to invent it lol.

West Asians to East Asians lost their innovative edge which caused us to lose against highly industrialized Europeans and they fought each other which made them even stronger.

Muslims were OP against Europeans for a while , but then came the industrial revolution and that made Europeans OP against anyone.

If we want the Muslim world to make a comeback we need innovation, inventions made by the Muslim world

So what if i can use my device right now? Should i start prostrating to them because they gave us devices or other stuff that we paid for??? What kind of slave mentality is that?? I can also say they were able to make these devices because of the basics of algebra that they got from muslims, the basics of chemistry that they got from muslims. I never see Europeans telling each other to respect muslims for it. They were living in dark ages when muslims were inventing.

Now times changed and its because of our own fault. We stopped following the meritocratic system that Islam teaches, we became corrupted and complacent. We need to fix ourselves and society and innovation and revolution will come then. Following the west, blaming Islamic culture and trying to become western chamcha wont solve our problems.