Sister of ‘Salala’ Martyr Asks, as Pakistanis await another deceit of resum

[Awesome]

It is much more than a question of money. Tragic and pointless as the tragedy truly was, one has to move on, whether one is a family member, colleague or the nation of those lost. Preposterous as it may sound, life must move on.

If someone accidentally killed your child (and I use this ghoulish analogy with great remorse and with prayers that you may never see such a fate) said they are not sorry about it, and said they will continue doing the activities that accidentally may kill another child of yours, I would like to know how at this point you'd think it is appropriate to say to you "choro yaar, move on".

Which child sir? Tell me at which one of your child's sacrifice you'd be okay to move on with?

The American President has to apologize as a first step.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Safriz:

It's not about money alone. In international dealings the first priority to to make as least enemies as you can, because the more enemies you make the more chance they will gang up and kick you in the gonads.

This rule of international politics applies to all but in particular to weaker and fragile countries.You must be aware of the dire strait of Pakistan's economy right now.

Pakistan does not have more than week's supply of oil, our finances are terrible, thereis hunger and poverty stalking the country. There are shortages of everything, only a few days ago we had riots over lack of electricity.

We have sectarian civil war going on inside the country, Shia's are being killed everyday. Our largest city, Karachi is going through a bloody sectarian war.

We have India next door, a country almost 7 times bigger than us, itching to attack us. Only few weeks ago India carried out a huge Veer Shoor military exercise near our border.

With all this happening are you guy's seriously telling us to go and antagonize the Americans? I note you live in UK. Then you must know that America and UK are twins.

You also must know that Americans are part of NATO, which is another way of saying, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Denmark, Canada, Belgium, Poland, Austria and Norway.

You might as well include Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, Singapore. To make it simple let us just call it the entire Western world. When you poke the American's your are poking the 'the Chacha' of the West.

So you want Pakistan to annoy all these countries? Are you bloody serious? All they have to do is put sanctions on Pakistan. Nothing goes in. No money goes in. Nothing goes out.

You know what would happen in Pakistan in a months time? Mass starvation. Total breakdown. Don't forget most of our high tech military technology is from America.

You saw what happened to Iraq? Is that what you want to happen to Pakistan? We are even weaker, because they least had oil. In today's world oil is almost more potent then armies. The modern world depends on oil.

WE don't even have oil. If they put in sanctions, what are we going to do? Tell our army to move around on donkey's? How is our farm produce going to be transported? On back of donkeys? All NATO has to do is sanction us and block oil.

And when our F-16s need spare parts, our Swedish AWACS need spare parts what are we going to do - 'Excuse us but please give us the spares'.?

The effect of that would be like getting a kick in your*** from Iron Mike Tyson.

Me and you chilling out in UK will be fine but what about millions of our brothers/sisters in Pakistan?

Asim Aquil:

With respect your comparing oranges with apples, the anology does not fit. A nation state and it's affairs cannot be treated in the way your doing. Thee is the private individuel and there is the nation state.

There is the office of President and the person who occupies that office. The people who occupy that office come and go but the office of President continues. It is not born, it does not die.

So can you please appreciate the state as a institution and the individuel as a private citizen. Of course as a private citizen you are right.

I put this to you. If your entire family was in a plane and I mean evey single member of your family, the youngest child to the oldest grandpops. You find the plane is carrying chemical weapons and it has been hijacked by people who will crash it into Sialkot City.

You are told that 10,00 people will dies but if you fire a missile at it it will vapourize the toxins but kill all your family, what do you do?

You are told some people on the plane are trying to take the plane over but you are told you don't have time. Choose now.

10,000 innocents or 100 of your family? As a President I would have to order the misile to be fired to destroy the plane. My rationale? save kill 100 to save 10,000.

As private person I would 'go to hell' I want my family'.

Can you see the point about the private and the public interest and how it can sometimes clash.

 

[VCheng]

If someone accidentally killed your child (and I use this ghoulish analogy with great remorse and with prayers that you may never see such a fate) said they are not sorry about it, and said they will continue doing the activities that accidentally may kill another child of yours, I would like to know how at this point you'd think it is appropriate to say to you "choro yaar, move on".

Which child sir? Tell me at which one of your child's sacrifice you'd be okay to move on with?

The American President has to apologize as a first step.

My dear Sir: You missed my point completely.

Your analogy, gruesome as it is, would be more appropriate had I sent out my said child out in the middle of the night, walking down the street, in the middle of a blizzard, across a ten lane highway, without reflective or warm clothing, to get a half-gallon of milk, just so that I could have a nice cup of tea in the morning. Now, if he is killed by a truck during said trip, don't you think taking out all the anger at the truck driver would be appropriate only if I could absolve myself of the decisions that led him to being in that highway at midnight under adverse weather conditions without appropriate equipment for an avoidable task in the first place.

In other words, please note that, as tragic as the loss of precious lives at Salala is, one should also look at the decisions taken at the GHQ that put the men there in the first place, with murky understandings and failed policies.

Edit: Apology? Please see this: http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-n...2/top-us-officials-say-no-apology-to-pakistan

 

[Awesome]

My dear Sir: You missed my point completely.

You should try to make one - clearly - and not beat around the bush (or the Jungle).

Your analogy, gruesome as it is, would be more appropriate had I sent out my said child out in the middle of the night, walking down the street, in the middle of a blizzard, across a ten lane highway, without reflective or warm clothing, to get a half-gallon of milk, just so that I could have a nice cup of tea in the morning.

Would it? That's still within the realm of possibility. Suppose you're a person without resources and each person in the family has to carry the burden of various labor intensive task - your child being given the cross a road and get a half gallon of milk.

But still the rest of your supposition does not apply. Since neither is guarding an outpost on the border intended to defend against incoming militants (2 incidents took place last year with 100 plus amassed on the Afghan side with Nato doing squat to prevent it) nor were the especially under-resourced given the objective of fending off militants not an AC-130 gunship, not F-15Es, not an Apache, and not trained soldiers of the American military. Every nation guards its borders, it is not equivalent to getting milk in a blizzard, its important activity.

 

[Awesome]

Asim Aquil:

With respect your comparing oranges with apples, the anology does not fit. A nation state and it's affairs cannot be treated in the way your doing. Thee is the private individuel and there is the nation state.

There is the office of President and the person who occupies that office. The people who occupy that office come and go but the office of President continues. It is not born, it does not die.

So can you please appreciate the state as a institution and the individuel as a private citizen. Of course as a private citizen you are right.

I put this to you. If your entire family was in a plane and I mean evey single member of your family, the youngest child to the oldest grandpops. You find the plane is carrying chemical weapons and it has been hijacked by people who will crash it into Sialkot City.

You are told that 10,00 people will dies but if you fire a missile at it it will vapourize the toxins but kill all your family, what do you do?

You are told some people on the plane are trying to take the plane over but you are told you don't have time. Choose now.

10,000 innocents or 100 of your family? As a President I would have to order the misile to be fired to destroy the plane. My rationale? save kill 100 to save 10,000.

As private person I would 'go to hell' I want my family'.

Can you see the point about the private and the public interest and how it can sometimes clash.

That's the argument Pakistanis have made but Americans just put fingers in their ears, close their eyes and keep going "lalalalalalalal"

Mark my words:

We won't save the nation state either by complying with the Americans.

They are the root of extremist ideology within Pakistan. But complying with the Americans we are essentially saying we are as good as a target as America for the extremists. By giving the extremists a target we are starting up a war that should have been fought between Americans and the extremists, but since America is freakin far, they just fight us.

We are slowly radicalizing the entire population. We kill 1 person, his 2 kids pick up the torch, we kill them, 4 more are in line.

You are fighting the population.

This is not about a choice between saving nation state vs saving an individual.

Siding with Americans is destroying Pakistan

Siding with Taliban is destroying Pakistan

Being against them both is the only thing that will save Pakistan.

Americans are not an alternative to Taliban. Pakistanis still neither support American dominance nor Taliban dominance. We like to be free from such foreign influences. Till you don't understand this there will be no smooth sailing for you since we will always - ALWAYS - oppose you in some way or the other (with regards to this war).

 

[VCheng]

..........
Siding with Americans is destroying Pakistan

Siding with Taliban is destroying Pakistan

Being against them both is the only thing that will save Pakistan.................

What about being against pretty much the whole world? That isolation will surely destroy Pakistan, unless either the whole world changes or Pakistan does. Guess what is more likely?

==============================

Edit:

The complete article is at: http://dawn.com/2012/05/20/the-big-bad-wolf/

but this concluding paragraph is worth noting:

Note: (Text in italics below added for clarity)

Strip away the prejudice and paranoia and the Big Bad Wolf (i.e. USA) doesn’t look so menacing after all. But there is a problem: we keep nudging the US into picking up the stick.

Take the supply route closure. When Salala was seized on as an opportunity to settle scores over May 2, we ended up playing our trump card — only to realise it wasn’t worth as much as we thought.

It’s to our enduring luck that we miscalculated. Had the supply route in fact been critical and its reopening an urgent necessity, we may not have been treated so leniently for being viewed as spoilers by the international community.

Perhaps it’s too late in the game for Pakistanis to wrap their heads around the idea that the US isn’t the Big Bad Wolf that they’ve been told it is.

But we could do ourselves a favour and begin to realise that Pakistan, as articulated by the paranoid and the insecure, is a Danger To Itself.

 

[Awesome]

What about being against pretty much the whole world? That isolation will surely destroy Pakistan, unless either the whole world changes or Pakistan does. Guess what is more likely?

Why amplify an example? It is what it is, they are against Pakistan so Pakistan should be against them. The whole world can be against Pakistan and then there can be a similar treatment.

But yeah you must always try to improve relationships, not by capitulating, but through negotiations, on the table, talk talk talk. You guys don't see an alternative between being the piggy or being the big bad wolf?

Even Zardari is better. His deen imaan is money so at least he is fighting for his money. Usmein himmat toh hai na khul khula ke demand karne ki. Maybe it won't work, but at least there's a chance.

For the past 60 years whenever America has been pissy we have capitulated. America has to be an immature child to think we are poking it with a stick, at best we are preventing it to poke us further.

America can destroy us, there is no argument there. But I'm telling you it doesn't matter if the alternative is perpetual subservience to America.

 

[clmeta]

Very honest . But answer this, if you are with the "war on terror" why shelter taliban??? And if you don't believe they are terrorists then say so and say we don't support this "war on terror". Why try being on both sides???

Why amplify an example? It is what it is, they are against Pakistan so Pakistan should be against them. The whole world can be against Pakistan and then there can be a similar treatment.

But yeah you must always try to improve relationships, not by capitulating, but through negotiations, on the table, talk talk talk. You guys don't see an alternative between being the piggy or being the big bad wolf?

Even Zardari is better. His deen imaan is money so at least he is fighting for his money. Usmein himmat toh hai na khul khula ke demand karne ki. Maybe it won't work, but at least there's a chance.

For the past 60 years whenever America has been pissy we have capitulated. America has to be an immature child to think we are poking it with a stick, at best we are preventing it to poke us further.

America can destroy us, there is no argument there. But I'm telling you it doesn't matter if the alternative is perpetual subservience to America.

 

[VCheng]

....................
America can destroy us, there is no argument there. But I'm telling you it doesn't matter if the alternative is perpetual subservience to America.

The key is the word "perpetual". I am not saying that; a few decades of sustained effort into education and the economy (with as much foreign assistance as can be garnered, and applied correctly, not squandered), and Pakistan would itself be invited to sit at the big table. What you propose is premature, and that is the only difference between the two approaches.

 

[FaujHistorian]

.........
We won't save the nation state either by complying with the Americans.

They are the root of extremist ideology within Pakistan. But complying with the Americans we are essentially saying we are as good as a target as America for the extremists. By giving the extremists a target we are starting up a war that should have been fought between Americans and the extremists, but since America is freakin far, they just fight us......

So many Pakistanis support anti-Americanism in Pakistan, you are not alone my dear Sir.

This rabid anti-Americanism gets used in different ways to hurt Pakistan. Mullahs have their way, and educated elite have their own way.

Back in 1979, educated Pakistanis burnt down American embassy. There was no American invasion in Pakistan then. No Sireee bob, it was pure anti-Americanism cr@p that has been the dinner-table menu for so many decades for the leftie and commie Pakistanis.


You say extremists will burn down Pakistan if we side with Americans.

Well Somalia, Yemen, and so many other areas are being burnt down in the name of Islamism, and there was no American solider next door.

You are supporting extremist mafia and ghunda gardi to satisfy your personal urges and your personal grudge. And that Sireee is utterly wrong.


peace.

...
Have Americans stationed on our posts? Foreign troops on our posts? Jaanay doh yaar, itna sellout toh Zardari bhi nahi hai.
.......

......

It is your selective reading. Check out my post again.

I clearly stated that we can have Turks or Germans on our side. But you continue to use "America" to flame bait. This is mischievous effort on your part. Avoid it if you want to have a serious discussion.

.......


And Pakistanis should rotate around Nevada and should be on the secret service guarding Obama, and Pakistanis should be rotated around bases like Andrews...

.......

you are being less than honest here.

Pakistani army rotates through American basis. Our pilots and crewmen are trained by Americans (in America and in Pakistan) for the use of F-16, P-3c, and Cobras.


So yes having Americans on our soil for military training and communication has been done in the past and can be done in future.

But your absolute prejudice won't even allow you to read what I have written.

This is truly sad and myopic.

peace.

 

[pak-marine]

Shor machao? What a cowardly thing to do.

she lost her precious brother, and she is in anguish,

But you Sir want to do shor. And this is your way to prove that you are with her in her moment of grief.

Yes. Shor machao, just like birds chrip when a snake takes their eggs.

Shor machao,

like pathetic Mullahs in Pakistan who are responsible for killing 1000's of Pak soldiers and 10s of 1000s of civilians in the name of Islamism,

Yes shor machao

How many times we have sided with children and mothers and sisters of Pak soldiers killed by Talibobs?
How many times we have threated to close down food supplies to the Talibob hotspots in Wazirastan?

How many times?

Just shor machao.

Shabaash. shor Machao.


there are so many Saddams and bud-nejats in Pakistan who are pushing Pak army to go to war with NATO.

Shor machao.

And then our country will be destroyed

like Iraq, like Laos, like Cambodia

Just shor machao.

Shabash.

Shor machao.

because

wheelchair warriors on the internet can sit in the West and push Pakistan army to utter destruction.


pathetic

pathetic wheelchair warriors.

Impressed , "hy we should mourn the unfortunate death of this soldier , He was paid for this , this was a part of his job but what about the death of those hundreds of civilians beaheaded , killed brutally and those thousands who lost lost their lives in cowardly suicide attacks by those talibani / AQ dogs ...

 

[BATMAN]

Back in 1979, educated Pakistanis burnt down American embassy. There was no American invasion in Pakistan then.

you can find people who are willing to sell their souls for money. However. both... the master mind and perpetrator shall be condemned..

But, don't get started with history....... Let's discuss realities of today.

Today, US is building a high rise embassy in Islamabad, Today, US has freedom to hold world gay conference in Islamabad.
Today, US diplomats enjoy unraveled diplomatic immunity. I also heard about black mailing some girls, earlier invited to booze party.

These are few facts... of today.

 

[FaujHistorian]

......
For the past 60 years whenever America has been pissy we have capitulated. America has to be an immature child to think we are poking it with a stick, at best we are preventing it to poke us further.

America can destroy us, there is no argument there. But I'm telling you it doesn't matter if the alternative is perpetual subservience to America.

yet more leftie and commie propaganda that is being used so effectively by the likes of you Sir and by the Islamist with one sole purpose. To create mayhem and anarchy in Pakistan.

You say in the last 60 years we have capitulated. This is not true.

In the 60s Americans said we are giving you the latest weapons. ONLY use it against commies.
--- We used it against India. Uncle Sam said stop. We didn't.
--- We destroyed our precious stock of weapons and gained nothing.

In the 70s, Americans said we are not invading Khana Kaaba. But we burnt their embassy and looted the American centers anyways.

In the 80 and 90s Americans said do not build nukie bumb.
-- We build it anyway. Even when we knew American Congress has put special amendments against our nukie bumb.

in the 90s Americans said, ok you build the nukie bumb, but do not explode it.

-- We exploded not 1 not 2 but 6 in total.

So yes we have had our "fun" opposing American advice.

But you won't remember anything. As you Sir have selective reading and selective memory habits.

This is Jazbati emotional attitude that destroys families and destabilizes nations.

Our economy is total wreck since the nukie bumb explosions. There was a minor blip due American Aid.

All the lefties and commies in Pakistan do not want to work, foul mouth about American the only substantial money supplier, and as a result turn Pakistan into beggar status.


But you won't understand.

Sadly.

 

[VCheng]

................Today, US diplomats enjoy unraveled diplomatic immunity. I also heard about black mailing some girls, earlier invited to booze party.

These are few facts... of today.

Would you care to present some proof of your outlandish allegation, or be man enough to withdraw it.

 

[BATMAN]

Would you care to present some proof of your outlandish allegation, or be man enough to withdraw it.

What will you do with proof? withdraw from Islamabad?