Sino-Japanese War still stings China 120 years later

[IsaacNewton]

My friend, it is not about the invasion that make us hate Japan. It is the atrocity they committed against innocent people. Did the Qing soldiers raped baby and old women and then chop their head off during their campaign? You see, our campaign is about subjugation and putting law and order in China proper which happen to expand our empire. It is a forgone conclusion. The Qing weakness is they became complacent after Qianlong reign. The real figure that broke the Qing's camel back is not Japan, it was the British. The First Opium War.

Not sure if Qing raped babies, but they killed 20 million + people in its conquest in central Asia. Also, during Muslim rebellion of the late Qing period, the Qing were quite brutal and killed 20 million people again.

There were multiple factors that led to the demise of the Great Qing Dynasty:

1 - Backward Imperialism. The last rulers of Qing Dynasty saw themselves as divine rulers of a perfect nation, and saw European inventions (such as the musket and cannons) to be useless dirt. Therefore they didn't industrialise as the Japanese did (Meiji Restoration), and therefore they seriously lacked behind.

2 - Corruption. The Dowager Queen made a right mess of things when she took the real ruling power from her grandson, the true Emperor who wanted to industrialise. The Dowager Queen took military funding to build herself a grand Summer Palace, which practically stopped Chinese military development. Her backward ideologies influenced prominent government officials, who ignored the cries of starved commoners and sat behind their wall of riches, blissfully oblivious to the threat of Europeans.

3 - Foreign invasion. The invasion by Europeans was made easy by Qing Dynasty's backward military - the majority of the outnumbering Chinese Navy was sunk in less than a week (what use were wooden junks to steel monsters?). The British then subsequently supplied opium to China, and when the Qing government refused to trade opium, the Brits used it as an excuse to openly invade China, split Chinese territories in unequal treaties, committed atrocious things to the Chinese population and utterly undermined Qing rule.

4 - Rise of Nationalism. Intellectuals saw the only way to defeat the Europeans was to use European technologies against them, and hence the overthrow of the corrupt and out-dated Imperialist Qing Dynasty.

The Opium War did very little damage to Qing IMO, at least compared to the Taiping rebellion that literally bankrupted the country. The Brit were actually quite nice to the Qing compared to Japanese. British invited Chinese to Malaysia and Singapore, and when British returned Hong Kong to China in 1997, it was literally the most advanced city in all of Asia.

 

[Aepsilons]

The Opium War did very little damage to Qing IMO, at least compared to the Taiping rebellion that literally bankrupted the country. The Brit were actually quite nice to the Qing compared to Japanese. British invited Chinese to Malaysia and Singapore, and when British returned Hong Kong to China in 1997, it was literally the most advanced city in all of Asia.

The Opium Wars may not have been as destructive as the 1st Sino Japanese War, but the Opium Wars were definitely catalyst for the rise of European Treaties of Extraterritoriality between China and a great many Western powers ergo, the French, German, Russian, Dutch, and even the Americans. These Treaties provided the European powers their own spheres of influence within China and had autonomy in their areas, practically undermining the Qing Government. The Collapse of the Qing was a culmination of many factors, not just one. Japan's eventual involvement was merely the Coup de Grace to the already weakened Qing Dynasty.

 

[xunzi]

Not sure if Qing raped babies, but they killed 20 million + people in its conquest in central Asia. Also, during Muslim rebellion of the late Qing period, the Qing were quite brutal and killed 20 million people again.

You talk about resistant force here. If you don't kill them, they kill you. Killing innocent civilian is what separated war crime vs the result of war.

The Opium War did very little damage to Qing IMO, at least compared to the Taiping rebellion that literally bankrupted the country. The Brit were actually quite nice to the Qing compared to Japanese. British invited Chinese to Malaysia and Singapore, and when British returned Hong Kong to China in 1997, it was literally the most advanced city in all of Asia.

The Taiping Rebellion is a result of the Opium War, that's why it is a very significant historical event in Qing history. If Qing defeat the British, there would be no Taiping Rebellion to speak of.

 

[Aepsilons]

The Taiping Rebellion is a result of the Opium War, that's why it is a very significant historical event in Qing history. If Qing defeat the British, there would be no Taiping Rebellion to speak of.

When I read about Chinese history, i am really just surprised by the amount of deaths that had happened in such a short span.
During Taiping Rebellion, when Hong Xiquan declared that he had visions and dreams that he was the brother of Jesus, he had a massive following. That civil war in Southern China led to some estimated 20 million deaths, most of which were committed by the overly-brutal Qing forces. This is not taking into consideration the some millions more that died due to the Chinese civil war between KMT and Communist forces led by Mao. Then we have to consider the 20 million deaths caused by Japanese invasion. So many died in China, that makes the deaths in Europe look so paltry.

 

[Nike]

I can't say the musket is European invention though the Europeans improved the tech. I think it was the Chinese who invented musket which was developed from their hand cannon.

indeed, the banner army of emperor Qianlong extensively using musket during their campaign against the Zunghar, Panthay, or even Burmese. But unfortunately their stopped the research and advancement of firearms technology when they feel is enough for themselves and fearing of the possibility the firearms technology fall into the hands of commoner or their brigand fief chief/warlord. Thus their weapons is severely outdated when the so called "Barbarian" come to their country, and when the first and Second Opium wars happened the Chinese found themselves lacking behind in technological advantage compare to the European armies.

 

[xunzi]

When I read about Chinese history, i am really just surprised by the amount of deaths that had happened in such a short span.
During Taiping Rebellion, when Hong Xiquan declared that he had visions and dreams that he was the brother of Jesus, he had a massive following. That civil war in Southern China led to some estimated 20 million deaths, most of which were committed by the overly-brutal Qing forces. This is not taking into consideration the some millions more that died due to the Chinese civil war between KMT and Communist forces led by Mao. Then we have to consider the 20 million deaths caused by Japanese invasion. So many died in China, that makes the deaths in Europe look so paltry.

That because China had always been the most populated country throughout history and war was fought in a densely populated area in the Eastern side. I am very surprise at the amount of death but we still remain the most populous country on Earth. Sometime I have a radical idea to solve our population issue, and that is war. LOL Somebody has to step up to the plate and face us though.

 

[Aepsilons]

I can't say the musket is European invention though the Europeans improved the tech. I think it was the Chinese who invented musket which was developed from their hand cannon.

Yes, they invented it, but the Europeans brought to Asia heavily advanced and destructive forms:

1) Smooth bore rifles
2) pistols
3) Gatling guns
4) Mortars
5) Cannons of varying sizes and power

With such technology, it made the full infantry assault tactics of Qing forces, as well as many of the battlefield tactics by Asian kingdoms relatively futile.

 

[xunzi]

indeed, the banner army of emperor Qianlong extensively using musket during their campaign against the Zunghar, Panthay, or even Burmese. But unfortunately their stopped the research and advancement of firearms technology when they feel is enough for themselves and fearing of the possibility the firearms technology fall into the hands of commoner or their brigand fief chief/warlord. Thus their weapons is severely outdated when the so called "Barbarian" come to their country, and when the first and Second Opium wars happened the Chinese found themselves lacking behind in technological advantage compare to the European armies.

The blame on the Qing for lacking technological prowess is unfair. It starts with the Ming dynasty and Qing just extend the policy of Ming due to their insecurity and fear of uprising, especially Ming loyalist force is still very active during the 1st half of Qing history. In the 2nd half, by the time foreign powers arrived, we got nothing left and completely shock by the advancement of Western power. Thus the humiliation to our ancestors. It is something we deeply remember and it is why we are motivated to regain the glory and the suffering of our people.

 

[IsaacNewton]

That because China had always been the most populated country throughout history and war was fought in a densely populated area in the Eastern side. I am very surprise at the amount of death but we still remain the most populous country on Earth. Sometime I have a radical idea to solve our population issue, and that is war. LOL Somebody has to step up to the plate and face us though.

Just invade vietnam again like in 1979.

 

[xunzi]

Just invade vietnam again like in 1979.

The question is will you stay aside and watch the show? That is the question!

 

[Aepsilons]

The blame on the Qing for lacking technological prowess is unfair. It starts with the Ming dynasty and Qing just extend the policy of Ming due to their insecurity and fear of uprising, especially Ming loyalist force is still very active during the 1st half of Qing history. In the 2nd half, by the time foreign powers arrived, we got nothing left and completely shock by the advancement of Western power. Thus the humiliation to our ancestors. It is something we deeply remember and it is why we are motivated to regain the glory and the suffering of our people.

Agreed. The Europeans , when they arrived to the shores of Asia, used their technological superiority to full effect. This fear of the Gaijin's influence and power was one of the reasons why the Tokugawa Shogunate expelled foreigners in the 16th century. And closed the doors to foreign trade. As if by ignoring the problem -- the problem would go away.

This is the reason why I believe that the greatest force that prevented Japan from progressing for 2 centuries was not the Europeans, no, it was , ironically, our own conservative Shogunate. Their outdated thinking -- focusing on old court structure and focusing on reading classical writings was outdated. I would say that the Tokugawa Shogunate was similar to the Qing Dynasty in China -- both were outdated and corrupt entities. They both needed to go.

 

[xunzi]

Agreed. The Europeans , when they arrived to the shores of Asia, used their technological superiority to full effect. This fear of the Gaijin's influence and power was one of the reasons why the Tokugawa Shogunate expelled foreigners in the 16th century. And closed the doors to foreign trade. As if by ignoring the problem -- the problem would go away.

This is the reason why I believe that the greatest force that prevented Japan from progressing for 2 centuries was not the Europeans, no, it was , ironically, our own conservative Shogunate. Their outdated thinking -- focusing on old court structure and focusing on reading classical writings was outdated. I would say that the Tokugawa Shogunate was similar to the Qing Dynasty in China -- both were outdated and corrupt entities. They both needed to go.

People said we miss out the industrial revolution. That is not always true. We chose that path. We chose to miss out on it. We close ourselves off. It is a mindset that set the historical precedent for modern Qing era. There is not much we can do but learn from it. If I travel back in time and warn our ancestor of incoming foreign encroachment, I would get my head cut off. That is just a mindset thing. We simply don't have that aggression like the European does and why it leads to humiliation. Old time is painful to remember. Luckily, the future is bright for us and we learn a lot.

 

[Nike]

Yes, they invented it, but the Europeans brought to Asia heavily advanced and destructive forms:

1) Smooth bore rifles
2) pistols
3) Gatling guns
4) Mortars
5) Cannons of varying sizes and power

indeed don't forget about Indian treasury among the European armies, Congreve Rockets.

European forces has been in fighting among themselves forever, literally. The most notable ones in which contributed a lot into for the advancement of modern military is Napoleonic war, Seven Years war, and 30 years War. This endless fighting resulted into the formation of formidable fighting machine among European armies in which no other part of the world can match them.

The blame on the Qing for lacking technological prowess is unfair. It starts with the Ming dynasty and Qing just extend the policy of Ming due to their insecurity and fear of uprising, especially Ming loyalist force is still very active during the 1st half of Qing history. In the 2nd half, by the time foreign powers arrived, we got nothing left and completely shock by the advancement of Western power. Thus the humiliation to our ancestors. It is something we deeply remember and it is why we are motivated to regain the glory and the suffering of our people.

Don't forget, Qing empire unlike the Ming they had a policy to opening and promoting trade and export for their commodities to the so called barbarian countries from the South in which at the times has been heavily invested if not conquered by European power. Made me wonder why the Qing who know about what happened outside of their world including the war, destruction, enlightenment, industrial prowess, and the advancement technologies the European brings still idle with their own idea of universe and world politics.

I am quite sure, in the time spaning between 1680 into 1800 the central government of Qing empire is have much authority , times, and wealth to finance any research and and modernization programme for their army but they prefer not to. Instead they more prefer to use their resources to built a lot of monumental tasks, palaces, to held a grandiose party among nobles and Royal courts.

 

[United westand]

I have few words to say:

If you cannot keep your words today.
Dig out the history cannot help.

 

[INDIC]

ROC admit Diaoyu belong to Japan? you said you know the history between China and Japan, but from your comments, you know sh!t.

Full Text: Diaoyu Dao, an Inherent Territory of China


Qing is just a dynasty of China in the history, why can't re claim it is territory of China, while you indian even want inheriting South Tibet from Colonist Britain.

We claim it what was transferred to Indian leaders by British after the handover to Indian and Pakistani leaders. we don't bother how they get it because we legally owned it, after all Chinese didn't reclaimed those land out of the sea, they too conquered the land of non-Han and non-Manchu people with brutality on natives. BTW, what stopped China to reclaim Senkakus when everyone took what they believe is theirs from the defeated axis powers.

The Qing killed 20+ million people in its conquest of central Asia. Just saying, atrocities is not unique to one race.

Those things doesn't matter, in Chinese logic the land conquered by Qing Imperial army with sheer brutality on natives became historical Chinese land even if they broke away during the last days of Qing Dynasty.