Sino-Japanese War still stings China 120 years later

[IsaacNewton]

And within some 30 years, Japan, as the first Asian nation, defeated a "white" power. The Russian Empire during the Russo-Japanese War.

30 years is a little over exaggeration. Japan tried to modernize ever since the "black ship" incident in the 1854.

 

[Europa]

Maybe it hurts them much to be defeated by the another Asian Nation than the White peoples,

i guess, it remains the key to understand the entire discourse

 

[Aepsilons]

30 years is a little over exaggeration. Japan tried to modernize ever since the "black ship" incident in the 1854.

It was not until the Meiji Restoration that actual industrialization and modernization was promulgated.

Before that, there was the Bakufu War, a massive civil war against Pro-Imperialist forces and the conservative forces of the Tokugawa Shogunate that had wanted to maintain the old 'ways'.

That war was a massive burden on Japan; thousands were killed and plethora of prefectures were desolated in war. After the Emperor Meiji was restored to the throne, in literally some 30 years, Japan had modernized. Defeated the Chinese in the 1st Sino Japanese War, and then within a decade, annihilated the Russian Baltic Fleet, and seized Port Arthur and other key Russian land territories in China. It was an unprecedented victory against the Russian Empire.

It was the first time a "Yellow Man" humbled a "White Man" in terms of modern warfare.

 

[IsaacNewton]

That war was important because it was the first time in history where China was not the dominant power of East Asia.

 

[Grand Historian]

Japan was forced to industrialize. In that time era, dear Historian, most of the world was ruled or under the economic, military and political clout of Europe. Africa was divided by the European powers, the Great Powers had taken advantage of the Ottoman Empire even calling our friend the noble turks as "Sick man of Europe", and had, by 1918, forced the Ottoman Empire to fragment its territorial holdings in the MIddle East. In Asia, it was worse. The British had carved a huge territory and named it the 'British Raj', effectively ruling over what is now present day Pakistan, Indian, Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, and Burma. The British had also ruled over Malaya and Northern Borneo (Sarawak and Brunei). The French had French Indochina (present day Laos, Cambodia and Viet Nam). The Dutch had controlled most of present day Indonesia. The Portugeues had controlled Goa, Timor Leste, and Macao. The Spanish had controlled the Philippines, Guam and the Mariana Islands. The Russians had controlled large parts of Liaodong peninsula, and Manchuria.

Japan had learned from the indemnity that China had to pay in its defeat to the Great Powers in the Opium Wars. With plethora of Treaties of Extraterritoriality. So thus we industrialized. We had sent out thousands of Japanese to the West to learn from them, and to bring it back to Japan. And within some 30 years, Japan, as the first Asian nation, defeated a "white" power. The Russian Empire during the Russo-Japanese War.

Industrialization =/= Colonization,it doesn't matter if European powers were colonizing the globe,Japanese had a chance to help China grow and prosper but instead they chose the path of sword.

Again you echo the sentiments of the Yasukuni shrine "liberating" your unfortunate kin

 

[IsaacNewton]

It was not until the Meiji Restoration that actual industrialization and modernization was promulgated.

Before that, there was the Bakufu War, a massive civil war against Pro-Imperialist forces and the conservative forces of the Tokugawa Shogunate that had wanted to maintain the old 'ways'.

That war was a massive burden on Japan; thousands were killed and plethora of prefectures were desolated in war. After the Emperor Meiji was restored to the throne, in literally some 30 years, Japan had modernized. Defeated the Chinese in the 1st Sino Japanese War, and then within a decade, annihilated the Russian Baltic Fleet, and seized Port Arthur and other key Russian land territories in China. It was an unprecedented victory against the Russian Empire.

It was the first time a "Yellow Man" humbled a "White Man" in terms of modern warfare.

I think that is why Japan succeeded in modernization and Qing did not. Both tried to modernize in 1850's, but there were conservative forces that wanted to keep the old ways. Japan was successful in overthrowing the conservative forces with relatively minor damage, Qing on the other hand was unsuccessful in that and fought a really damaging civil war that is known as the Taiping Rebellion.

The internal weakness of the Qing was clearly displayed during the warlord era.

 

[Aepsilons]

Industrialization =/= Colonization,it doesn't matter if European powers were colonizing the globe,Japanese had a chance to help China grow and prosper but instead they chose the path of sword.

Again you echo the sentiments of the Yasukuni shrine "liberating" your unfortunate kin

Clearly your nationalism has deluded you into thinking proper strategy. During the Age of European Imperialism, it was foolish to go against the Great Powers of the West. Any foolhardy initiative of waging wars with them directly would have led to the colonization of Japan.

Let us look at the kingdoms / empires in Asia that had tried to resist European imperialism:

1) Toungoo Dynasty of Burma (had 3 wars with the British; and the outcome led to the absolutely disintegration of the Burmese Empire and its incorporation into the British-Indian Empire)
2) Vietnamese Empire , had a war with the French, which led to the conquest of the entire Empire to French colonial forces, including the colonization of Laos and Cambodia.
3) China. The Opium Wars, the Boxer Rebellion, and the subsequent Unequal Treaties. All of which are examples of poor strategy against a greater enemy.

Japan identified the inherent singular factor that led to the defeat of these noble Asian kingdoms and empires to the European Powers. It is this: 1) Lack of Industrial Might and 2) The shear fire power of the West

 

[Grand Historian]

Qing on the other hand was unsuccessful in that and fought a really damaging civil war that is known as the Taiping Rebellion.

Taiping was not a reaction to conservative/modernists, its simply another classic peasant rebellion except instead of someone claiming to be Maitreya,Hong Xiuquan was the brother of Jesus.

The Taiping rebellion was anti foreigners,anti Confucian conservatism(basically the reason why they didn't win),appealed to the stigmatized ie Hakka and Zhuang while the Manchus were a scapegoat to attract Ming loyalists as well as general discontent.

Clearly your nationalism has deluded you into thinking proper strategy. During the Age of European Imperialism, it was foolish to go against the Great Powers of the West. Any foolhardy initiative of waging wars with them directly would have led to the colonization of Japan.

Let us look at the kingdoms / empires in Asia that had tried to resist European imperialism:

1) Toungoo Dynasty of Burma (had 3 wars with the British; and the outcome led to the absolutely dissolution of the Burmese Empire and its incorporation into the British-Indian Empire)
2) Vietnamese Empire , had a war with the French, which led to the conquest of the entire Empire to French colonial forces, including the colonization of Laos and Cambodia.
3) China. The Opium Wars, the Boxer Rebellion, and the subsequent Unequal Treaties. All of which are examples of poor strategy against a greater enemy.

Japan identified the inherent singular factor that led to the defeat of these noble Asian kingdoms and empires to the European Powers. It is this: 1) Lack of Industrial Might and 2) The shear fire power of the West

I'm afraid I'm not the one whitewashing or flat out distorting history.

Industrialization and Modernization doesn't necessarily rely on conquering other territories.

You're trying to legitimize Japanese colonization of other sovereign entities as a noble effort to defeat the "White" man,as I thought the Japanese have no remorse for their actions.

 

[Aepsilons]

Industrialization and Modernization doesn't necessarily rely on conquering other territories.

Are you not a Historian? If you read the History of European Industrial Revolution , the American Industrial Revolution-- is linked with Imperialist designs. In fact, it was the colonial empires of Britain, France, Spain and the like that transported goods, resources, that fueled their Industrial base.

In the 18th and 19th Centuries, a single movement would hit the Western World and change the way the world worked forever: Industrial Revolution. Through this socio-economic change, the powers of Western Europe and North America were able to expand their economies exponentially compared to before. No longer did sailing to foreign countries and continents take weeks and require the aid of manpower and sails, rather steam, and other forms of energy later on, would power these vessels. The invention of cars and trains made it possible for one to travel long distances in a fraction of the time it would have taken a decade earlier.

For the Europeans, they now had a means to get spices and other goods from abroad much more efficiently, not to mention quicker. This advancement led to a greater desire by the Western nations to expand their empires to relatively civilized areas outside of Europe, such as China, Africa, and Mexico, in order to gain access to the vast expanse of their natural resources that were now at the feet of the Europeans. China, the great Asian power, supplied an enormous market for sales of European goods, as well as spices. The African continent as a whole offered large quantities of untapped resources. Mexico, last but not least, could offer not only manpower to do hard labor, but also a vast amount of natural resources valuable to the Western industrial nations.

The United States had heralded its Manifest Destiny to control North America , and with that, used new territories incorporated into the Federal Government to fuel the American Industrial Powerhouse. Why, even when the Philippines , Cuba and Puerto Rico were taken during the Spanish American War, the coals in said territories helped to fuel the American industrial machine.

I'm afraid I'm not the one whitewashing or flat our distorting history.

No, it is apparent to me that you are either deliberately keeping one eye closed to European Colonialism in Asia, whilst keeping one open and targeting Japan's industrialization-based imperialism. It seems to me that Japan is of significant prejudice to you. Selective prejudice, i deign to say. Imperialism was a phenomena in that time period, Japan's imperialism was not a unique phenomena.

 

[Grand Historian]

Are you not a Historian? If you read the History of European Industrial Revolution , the American Industrial Revolution-- is linked with Imperialist designs. In fact, it was the colonial empires of Britain, France, Spain and the like that transported goods, resources, that fueled their Industrial base.

In the 18th and 19th Centuries, a single movement would hit the Western World and change the way the world worked forever: Industrial Revolution. Through this socio-economic change, the powers of Western Europe and North America were able to expand their economies exponentially compared to before. No longer did sailing to foreign countries and continents take weeks and require the aid of manpower and sails, rather steam, and other forms of energy later on, would power these vessels. The invention of cars and trains made it possible for one to travel long distances in a fraction of the time it would have taken a decade earlier.

For the Europeans, they now had a means to get spices and other goods from abroad much more efficiently, not to mention quicker. This advancement led to a greater desire by the Western nations to expand their empires to relatively civilized areas outside of Europe, such as China, Africa, and Mexico, in order to gain access to the vast expanse of their natural resources that were now at the feet of the Europeans. China, the great Asian power, supplied an enormous market for sales of European goods, as well as spices. The African continent as a whole offered large quantities of untapped resources. Mexico, last but not least, could offer not only manpower to do hard labor, but also a vast amount of natural resources valuable to the Western industrial nations.

Its hopeless arguing with someone who thinks Japanese colonized others out of the kindness of their heart.

This is why Japanese will never earn the respect of the Chinese populace until there is a fundamental shift in their ideology.

Historians still disagree today whether colonization is that important as you think.

 

[Europa]

Industrialization and Modernization doesn't necessarily rely on conquering other territories.

in the early phase of industrialization, it did rely on conquests to secure supply of raw materials and laborers. i personally talked to a celebrity academician (can't mention his name here) i asked him when the modernity came and he replied when people started thinking they became modern, lol

 

[Aepsilons]

Its hopeless arguing with someone who thinks Japanese colonized others out of the kindness of their heart.

I did not say that our policies during the 19th century were based on "kindness of our hearts", but rather, have emphasized its practical necessity during that time epoch. It was also in lieu with the policies of the day.

This is why Japanese will never earn the respect of the Chinese populace until there is a fundamental shift in their ideology.

That is your subjective opinion.

Historians still disagree today whether colonization is that important as you think.

Again, that is your subjective opinion. I shan't believe that you speak for all historians in the world.

Japan was successful in overthrowing the conservative forces with relatively minor damage, Qing on the other hand was unsuccessful in that and fought a really damaging civil war that is known as the Taiping Rebellion.

I would also add that during the latter part of the Qing Dynasty, a phenomena was apparent -- Warlordism. Many of the Generals , Commanders of the Bannermen Commanderies had effectively established their 'rule' in many regions of the Chinese Empire. The Central Government in China was weakened. And the attempt to subdue these 'semi-autonomous' commanderies was minimal at best. Whereas in Japan, forces that were not loyal to the Meiji Government were expeditiously and mercilessly cut down. Thousands of Samurais and Daimyos who did not swear fealty to the Emperor Meiji were commanded to commit ritual suicide -- Seppuku. A great many, if not all, did.

 

[Grand Historian]

No, it is apparent to me that you are either deliberately keeping one eye closed to European Colonialism in Asia, whilst keeping one open and targeting Japan's industrialization-based imperialism. It seems to me that Japan is of significant prejudice to you. Selective prejudice, i deign to say. Imperialism was a phenomena in that time period, Japan's imperialism was not a unique phenomena.

Not quite,why would I praise European Colonization?

The issue is you using European Colonization as an excuse that Japan can have free reign over East Asia.

Really your posts reek of "Japanese was the savior of East Asia",Japanese already had designs on continental East Asia prior to European contact,industrialization merely accelerated it.

 

[Aepsilons]

The issue is you using European Colonization as an excuse that Japan can have free reign over East Asia.

As I said in my previous post(s), the policies of Imperialism was widely accepted by great powers. In that time, Japan wanted to remain independent, and greatly required resources to fuel industrialization. By geographic proximity, it was Korea that was the target of interest.

Really your posts reek of "Japanese was the savior of East Asia",Japanese already had designs on continental East Asia prior to European contact,industrialization merely accelerated it.

I don't think Japan wanted to be the "Savior of East Asia" by any means. During those days, Japan wanted to vehemently protect its national interests from the ravenous appetites of Western Powers: Germany, France, Russia, and the United States. Japanese foreign policy in those days were aligned to soothe Japanese interests. It was much later on when imbeciles within the Japanese Government adopted a more militant policy, bereft of the guided policies that were present during the reign of the Emperor Meiji. During the 1920s, and 1930s, the military government had adopted a foolish Fascist policy -- and brought the nation into a collision course with the Allied Powers. I am actually against the Government policies of the Tojo Administration and his predecessors in the 1920s, and 1930s.

Really your posts reek of "Japanese was the savior of East Asia",Japanese already had designs on continental East Asia prior to European contact,industrialization merely accelerated it.

I find it interesting that you specifically target the Japanese as agents of "Imperialism". My dear, Historian, through your deep knowledge of East Asian and South East Asian history, you would know that the entire region is renowned for the rise and fall of many empire(s) and civilizaton(s). The Mongols, the Jirchen, the Manchu, the Tibetans, the Gurkhas, the Vietnamese, the Ayudhayans, the Lan Xangs, the Khmers, the Sri Vijayasn, the Majapahitians, et al.

 

[Huaren]

Not quite,why would I praise European Colonization?

The issue is you using European Colonization as an excuse that Japan can have free reign over East Asia.

Really your posts reek of "Japanese was the savior of East Asia",Japanese already had designs on continental East Asia prior to European contact,industrialization merely accelerated it.

Japan has chosen the path to emulate western imperialism with which european used to cover the whole world to get what they want, the same system which destroyed american native civilizations and put africa into chaos and enslavement for countless generations to come, and japan have certainly proven themselves to their european teachers. Indeed there is no need to fool anyone, at least the current generation of japanese do not believe taking that path was a mistake.