Singh says not clear who controls Pakistan army

[AliFarooq]

Its definitely not taliban controlling Pakistan's army so india don't have to piss their pants and enjoy a peaceful sleep.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Ok guys... take a long brake and return to the topic... Tell me who controls the Pakistan army ? the govt or army itself..

Army is controlled by the govt, budget allocated by govt, scrutiny of budget done in Parliment, PAC scrutinizes the purchases and other matters related to the budget, COAS is appointed by the PM/President, yes unfortunately some of the things were missing in the past, but now fully there. And Army has responded to every challenge that the govt calls it to without any hesitation.

Main problem is that when our immature oligarchs running the country neglect the country and indulge in selfish acts, try to become dictators through so called democracy, suppress the opposition and do things which threaten the stability of the country, or try to take over the army for personal use, Army has to come in, and unfortunately they then stay instead of doing something useful and leave or correct the system & leave to run it by itself. But till the time we have these selfish, immature oligarchs in command, Army will have to keep poking it nose, the day these oligarchs think for Pakistan, not themselves, Army will have no role nor it will do a rebellion against the so called democracy.

Clapping is done with both hands, single hand can't do it. Army makes its moves by the opportunity provided by our pathetic politicians.

 

[vsdoc]

Taimi all politicians are corrupt. First recognise that fact.

Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The key word here in pakistan's context is "absolute."

So what is the solution as per you?

You elect a government.

It turns out to be corrupt.

The army overthrows the government.

The army general turns corrupt.

Politician finally rallies masses.

America tightens purse strings.

Army moves aside.

You elect a government.

Haven't you guys tried that before ..... more than once?

Cheers, Doc

 

[praveen]

Army is controlled by the govt, budget allocated by govt, scrutiny of budget done in Parliment, PAC scrutinizes the purchases and other matters related to the budget, COAS is appointed by the PM/President, yes unfortunately some of the things were missing in the past, but now fully there. And Army has responded to every challenge that the govt calls it to without any hesitation.

Main problem is that when our immature oligarchs running the country neglect the country and indulge in selfish acts, try to become dictators through so called democracy, suppress the opposition and do things which threaten the stability of the country, or try to take over the army for personal use, Army has to come in, and unfortunately they then stay instead of doing something useful and leave or correct the system & leave to run it by itself. But till the time we have these selfish, immature oligarchs in command, Army will have to keep poking it nose, the day these oligarchs think for Pakistan, not themselves, Army will have no role nor it will do a rebellion against the so called democracy.

Clapping is done with both hands, single hand can't do it. Army makes its moves by the opportunity provided by our pathetic politicians.

Great post sir,It explains all the scenarios ,except the first coup.How did Ayub Khan do the coup and how did he win against a woman of stature like Fatima Jinnah
in the elections

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Why there is 17th amendment with a person who is not representing massive but is puppet to India and US , army is tring to keep a check on him and its bothering India

1. If ISI head was handed over to Indians for questioning
2. If IAF was allowed to attack targets inside Pakistan and he him self defended Lahore Air Space violation for the Indians.
Singh would be saying our puppet is in Total power in Pakistan.

You know people in Pakistan play with western fear factor that if they are removed extremist will come in power or its the Army who is supporting the bad guys and we should be in control of ISI and weapons etc.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Great post sir,It explains all the scenarios ,except the first coup.How did Ayub Khan do the coup and how did he win against a woman of stature like Fatima Jinnah
in the elections

For that you will have to do some research in history as its a lengthy discussion, but in brief, Iskander Mirza had declared martial law and made the 1956 constitution as a reason and he made Ayub Khan martial law administrator thinking Ayub Khan will be loyal and help him be in power, as historians and history says Iskander himself wanted absolute power which was being threatened due to the constitution. So once he declared martial law 3 weeks later Ayub Khan sent him packing his bags as his true ambitions came true. Ayub Khan took over, he left the seat of COAS and gave it to Gen Musa Khan and became president and the story continues.

As said its a lengthy discussion but just gave a brief picture of what in real happened, Ayub Khan may not be the one who did the first martial law or coup, Iskander Mirza can be said to hold this title, Ayub Khan did the 2nd coup after intentions of Iskander Mirza came to surface.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Taimi all politicians are corrupt. First recognise that fact.

Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The key word here in pakistan's context is "absolute."

So what is the solution as per you?

You elect a government.

It turns out to be corrupt.

The army overthrows the government.

The army general turns corrupt.

Politician finally rallies masses.

America tightens purse strings.

Army moves aside.

You elect a government.

Haven't you guys tried that before ..... more than once?

Cheers, Doc

Sir, in our case its not just corruption, its way more then that. I used the word oligarchs, these oligarchs want to become kings, emperors, dictators, whatever u name it, absolute power.

And frankly the solution in my case is a mini or large revolution removing all of them forever. As these oligarchs can't be removed by mere demonstrations, other solution other then revolution would be an educated & conscious masses who can make a change in the political scenario and bring people who have conscious and think about Pakistan instead of themselves, which will take decades i believe.

 

[praveen]

For that you will have to do some research in history as its a lengthy discussion, but in brief, Iskander Mirza had declared martial law and made the 1956 constitution as a reason and he made Ayub Khan martial law administrator thinking Ayub Khan will be loyal and help him be in power, as historians and history says Iskander himself wanted absolute power which was being threatened due to the constitution. So once he declared martial law 3 weeks later Ayub Khan sent him packing his bags as his true ambitions came true. Ayub Khan took over, he left the seat of COAS and gave it to Gen Musa Khan and became president and the story continues.

As said its a lengthy discussion but just gave a brief picture of what in real happened, Ayub Khan may not be the one who did the first martial law or coup, Iskander Mirza can be said to hold this title, Ayub Khan did the 2nd coup after intentions of Iskander Mirza came to surface.

Thank you very much it explains a lot.But the second one how did he win against Fatima Jinnah?She was the sister of Quaid-e-Azam and surely people would have supported Fatima any other day in an election.Why did she lose?How did she lose?Her defeat I think was the point when democracy reached its Nadir in Pakistan

 

[praveen]

Sir, in our case its not just corruption, its way more then that. I used the word oligarchs, these oligarchs want to become kings, emperors, dictators, whatever u name it, absolute power.

And frankly the solution in my case is a mini or large revolution removing all of them forever. As these oligarchs can't be removed by mere demonstrations, other solution other then revolution would be an educated & conscious masses who can make a change in the political scenario and bring people who have conscious and think about Pakistan instead of themselves, which will take decades i believe.

More than oligarchy.I think its feudalism.If land reforms do not occur there may be a scenario of a class struggle where the taliban may do struggle on part of the peasants against the Feudals ,then game over.It will take the picture of a mass uprising and this scenario is particulary dangerous in Punjab and Sindh

 

[TaimiKhan]

Thank you very much it explains a lot.But the second one how did he win against Fatima Jinnah?She was the sister of Quaid-e-Azam and surely people would have supported Ayub any other day in an election.Why did she lose?How did she lose?Her defeat I think was the point when democracy reached its Nadir in Pakistan

The common held view by majority is that the elections were rigged in favor of Ayub Khan, as she would have not lost it, except for rigged elections. And unfortunate part of our history, Pakistan may have been something else if she had won.

 

[TaimiKhan]

More than oligarchy.I think its feudalism.If land reforms do not occur there may be a scenario of a class struggle where the taliban may do struggle on part of the peasants against the Feudals ,then game over.It will take the picture of a mass uprising and this scenario is particulary dangerous in Punjab and Sindh

hahahahahhahahahaha Taliban and struggle for poor people ?? Its not just feudalism, its just one part of many factors.

Taliban will even take more from poor people then give them something.

 

[praveen]

hahahahahhahahahaha Taliban and struggle for poor people ?? Its not just feudalism, its just one part of many factors.

Taliban will even take more from poor people then give them something.

Don't underestimate that part sir.that class struggle in the garb of communalism is one of the causes of partition,Russian revolutio,rise of Maoists in India(one of the best things that happened to the Indian state).The promise of land is very tempting to the poor peasant ,landless labourer

 

[TaimiKhan]

Don't underestimate that part sir.that class struggle in the garb of communalism is one of the causes of partition,Russian revolutio,rise of Maoists in India(one of the best things that happened to the Indian state).The promise of land is very tempting to the poor peasant ,landless labourer

No doubt about that, but all i am trying to say is that Taliban can't be that group with their current agenda in hand, plus they are not powerful enough, also they are not a nation wide movement, the majority of them are from one ethnicity based in a specific area with their arses on the run. But i fully agree this is one critical factor to be looked into. Injustice does leads to revolution or an uprising.

 

[Xeric]

More explanations:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-manmohan-singh-s-sojourn-usa.html#post559066

 

[S-2]

Where is the think tank to answer the question of who controls the Pakistani Army?

We've taimikhan who provides a stock answer straight from a textbook before wandering off into coup d'etat'sville with all the convenient rationales that accompany a militarist neo-fascist perspective.

Is that true? The army is accountable to the civilian government at the convenience of the army? Seems to be Taimikhan's reply. I'm waiting to read some responsible and insightful perspectives that don't whitewash an ignoble legacy and provide some hope that, corrupt and inept or not, this government WILL be seen through its tenure and PAKISTANIS will do a better job of identifying and electing their next set of civilian leaders.

Clearly Pakistanis did so with Zardari's election. Nobody seems to contest the legitimacy of that vote unlike Karzai's recent debacle. If so, why the clamouring and gnashing of teeth? Isn't it recognized that elections represent the self-correcting mechanism to institute policy change through new administrations?

This isn't "one man, one vote, one time" again to be replaced by another military strong-man, is it?