Sikh Light Infantry officers, soldiers clash during boxing match; 3 hurt

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Congo incident is only the symptom of a much larger disease. You can try to deflect the blame on the poor jawans for all you want, nobody will buy it.

IA officers has no choice BUT to lead from the front. The Privileges the officers get is so much more than the jawans (like their earlier British counterparts) that the jawans just do not trust their officers enough to go jump into fire just because the officer commanded them too. Where you see heroic effort, I see leadership failure.

No wonder IA officers die at such regular interval. They have become little more than cannon fodder.

The whole idea of US army is to keep the Brain alive (the officer) and use the soldiers to do the actual fighting. IA is more keen on killing the officers and avoid giving more responsibilities to the jawan. Then they cry about officer shortage.

There is nothing more to be said on this topic. There is none so blind as those who choose not to see.

So according to your logic if a jawan makes a mistake its the officers fault..by this logic i cant argue with you.

 

[janon]

...No wonder IA officers die at such regular interval. They have become little more than cannon fodder.

The whole idea of US army is to keep the Brain alive (the officer) and use the soldiers to do the actual fighting. IA is more keen on killing the officers and avoid giving more responsibilities to the jawan. Then they cry about officer shortage.
...

You really think that the officer shortage in the IA is because they are all dying at an irreplaceable rate? Oh man!

 

[Shankranthi]

So according to your logic if a jawan makes a mistake its the officers fault..by this logic i cant argue with you.

It is always the officers fault. That is why they are OFFICERS.

But here is a post made by someone claiming to be Lt. Col. Take it for what its worth. ;

Army officers and soldiers clash in Meerut, two injured | Deccan Chronicle

The difference between the Jawans and officers is growing in terms of Ration, pay and allowances, Military service pay (officers Rs 7000 and Jawans Rs 2000 only). The difference is created by our chiefs during the 6th pay commission. In recent years huge corruption cases against the sitting Generals and retired chief of the army staff like Adarsh scam, Sukhna scam, Tatra scam , ration scam has put the image of army very low by the officers those who are involved.

You will be surprised to know that in Afghanistan and Iraq there is no scuffle between the officers and the Men among the US and British forces. There being too much of pressure and tension the men and officers live in harmony. The reason being no much difference in their pay, allowances, accommodation, food and clothing. Officers create a example by leading g the men in Iraq and Afgan. There the men and offers dine and wine together.

Here since the British left India the situation has gone from bad to worst. SSB centers for the selection of officers has become corrupt and biased. Such selected officers will never be able to lead the men. The Army has to change with the changing times. Mens have to be treated with dignity. Sevadars (men in uniform polishing offrs shoe, rank and uniform) which is a legacy of the the British has to be abolished. Finally the huge difference among the men the officers in terms of pay, ration and accommodation has to be abolished. We have to see our neighbors Pak, China, Sri Lanka, Korea and Japan as a study why no such incidents happen in their Army.

You really think that the officer shortage in the IA is because they are all dying at an irreplaceable rate? Oh man!

A strawman argument is all you could come up with ? Oh man !

 

[janon]

...A strawman argument is all you could come up with ? Oh man !

Dude, WTF? I did not make any argument, strawman or otherwise. Stop throwing terms about.

I merely repeated your own absurd linking of officer shortage and officers getting killed.

Srawman argument, my foot.

 

[Shankranthi]

Dude, WTF? I did not make any argument, strawman or otherwise. Stop throwing terms about.

I merely repeated your own absurd linking of officer shortage and officers getting killed.

Srawman argument, my foot.

NDA takes in candidates for officer training based on the estimated officer requirement. That means apart from normal accidental death and attrition, the officer requirement should be completely filled.

Above earlier article indicated that for a 22 officers recommended for a combat battalion, only 8-9 are available. Where do you think the remaining 14-15 officers have gone/disappeared to ?

In case you haven't realize, this is peace time. No officer should be dying in the first place. If this is the attrition during peace time, God help us at times of war. We will run out of officers after the first 3 days of war.

IA policy of staying with the NDA caste system is the other problem. If you had bothered to read earlier posts you would have understood it.

If all that wasn't enough, in the particular case under discussion, junior commissioned officers (JCOs) and soldiers ganged up to take on senior officers who was a Lt. Col (second in command) and landed him in the hospital. Makes you wonder, No ? .... has the $hit hit the ceiling yet ?

 

[MKI 30]

If IA Officers starts quitting in mass, the govt. will fall. This IS a democracy. What is more, they would have scarified their careers for a just cause and restored pride and honor to the IA.

And you are right, Admiral Vishnu Bhagavat action in my opinion was a act of Truly great Leader with tremendous Integrity. And by taking such a step he has already shown the path for future IA leadership to do the same. Only they do not have Bhagavat's courage or integrity. This is one of the reason IN is more respected than IA or IAF.

VK Singh's actions post retirement means nothing. Those are actions of an ambitious civilian. His actions when he was Army Chief is what matters.

Yes, for me and for the Rest of the World, Morality is when you protest and refuse to take part in any illegal, immoral or unethical action. That is true test of character.

Fight for a just cause is the answer, sacrificing your life/career/greed for a just cause is mark of a true leader. It is the very essence of inspirational leadership.

I am talking about cleaning the system from the Inside. Take decisions that are correct but unpopular and stick to your guns, come what may. Unfortunately that kind of real courage is missing in action. instead we see cowards leaking letters. Pathetic.

First Point - If our officers start quitting is mass it would only worsen the already bleak situation of mass shortage. And if something was to happen on our borders you think we would be sufficient to handle any situation? Please i too share your concerns but please talk of realistic solutions. IA job is not to make or destroy Govt that is the job of the political parties. Do you want to burden the already demanding job of the army? As for restoring Pride and Honor, i am sure something else which is more realistic and effective can be done.

Second Point - I fully respect what Admiral Vishnu Bhagavat did, but please tell me what change did it bring about? Has the situation improved? My comparisons with VK Singh was just to indicate to you how the situation can really be changed without the easy way to quit. He is the man who faced oppositions from every side yet in his tenure stuck to his duty and went out far out of his permissible limits to safeguard the nation. Did it bring something good? Well that is for the people of this country to see and surely if not anything else he atleast made huge masses of people aware of the ground realities. And for you to call him ambitious is fully justified as the situation demands such attitude.

Third Point - Leadership can be defined from many angles. You are bound to have your angle but i feel quitting is not the answer. And by your above definition of leadership would you agree what the ex- servicemen are doing as justified because in your earlier post you seem to downplay the importance of such unity and sacrifice?

Lastly, on one hand you say of cleaning the system from inside and on the other to quit something which is against the moral values? Please tell me how do you plan on cleaning the system from inside by quitting from the very system?

 

[Shankranthi]

First Point - If our officers start quitting is mass it would only worsen the already bleak situation of mass shortage. And if something was to happen on our borders you think we would be sufficient to handle any situation? Please i too share your concerns but please talk of realistic solutions. IA job is not to make or destroy Govt that is the job of the political parties. Do you want to burden the already demanding job of the army? As for restoring Pride and Honor, i am sure something else which is more realistic and effective can be done.

Second Point - I fully respect what Admiral Vishnu Bhagavat did, but please tell me what change did it bring about? Has the situation improved? My comparisons with VK Singh was just to indicate to you how the situation can really be changed without the easy way to quit. He is the man who faced oppositions from every side yet in his tenure stuck to his duty and went out far out of his permissible limits to safeguard the nation. Did it bring something good? Well that is for the people of this country to see and surely if not anything else he atleast made huge masses of people aware of the ground realities. And for you to call him ambitious is fully justified as the situation demands such attitude.

Third Point - Leadership can be defined from many angles. You are bound to have your angle but i feel quitting is not the answer. And by your above definition of leadership would you agree what the ex- servicemen are doing as justified because in your earlier post you seem to downplay the importance of such unity and sacrifice?

Lastly, on one hand you say of cleaning the system from inside and on the other to quit something which is against the moral values? Please tell me how do you plan on cleaning the system from inside by quitting from the very system?

I am tired of repeating myself. I have replied to you, but you are incapable of understanding my replies.

1. Getting fired for doing the right thing is not the same as quitting.

2. Showing courage to do the right thing and refusing to do the wrong thing goes a long way in correcting any situation.

3. Not showing the courage to do the right thing is cowardice disguised as pragmatism.

4. Doing the right thing is a journey, not the destination. Every drop adds up to make an ocean.

If you still don't get it, you just don't get it. Let it go.

 

[MKI 30]

I am tired of repeating myself. I have replied to you, but you are incapable of understanding my replies.

1. Getting fired for doing the right thing is not the same as quitting.

2. Showing courage to do the right thing and refusing to do the wrong thing goes a long way in correcting any situation.

3. Not showing the courage to do the right thing is cowardice disguised as pragmatism.

4. Doing the right thing is a journey, not the destination. Every drop adds up to make an ocean.

If you still don't get it, you just don't get it. Let it go.

Incapable might not be the right word. I may not be in agreement to some of your points doesn't mean i am incapable of understanding your point of view. Its best to agree to disagree.

 

[janon]

NDA takes in candidates for officer training based on the estimated officer requirement. That means apart from normal accidental death and attrition, the officer requirement should be completely filled.

Above earlier article indicated that for a 22 officers recommended for a combat battalion, only 8-9 are available. Where do you think the remaining 14-15 officers have gone/disappeared to ?
In case you haven't realize, this is peace time. No officer should be dying in the first place. If this is the attrition during peace time, God help us at times of war. We will run out of officers after the first 3 days of war.

IA policy of staying with the NDA caste system is the other problem. If you had bothered to read earlier posts you would have understood it.

If all that wasn't enough, in the particular case under discussion, junior commissioned officers (JCOs) and soldiers ganged up to take on senior officers who was a Lt. Col (second in command) and landed him in the hospital. Makes you wonder, No ? .... has the $hit hit the ceiling yet ?

It's not like they existed and then disappeared. They did not have enough officers to fill the vacancies in the first place. Please check out how many officers die in a year, and what the officer shortage is. There is a difference of several orders of magnitude. The IA is short of about 10,000-15,000 officers. Only around ten officers or so die every year in combat. There is no connection between the two.

The shortage is because many young officers take early retirement due to other employment opportunities, the IA cannot induct enough officers without diluting quality of intake, there are not enough training facilities, and so on. And the biggest shortage is in mid level officers, which is why the officer strength at battalion lever is very is low (but not platoon level or corps' level). There are several reasons for the officer shortage, but attrition is not one of them.

 

[Shankranthi]

It's not like they existed and then disappeared. They did not have enough officers to fill the vacancies in the first place. Please check out how many officers die in a year, and what the officer shortage is. There is a difference of several orders of magnitude. The IA is short of about 10,000-15,000 officers. Only around ten officers or so die every year in combat. There is no connection between the two.

The shortage is because many young officers take early retirement due to other employment opportunities, the IA cannot induct enough officers without diluting quality of intake, there are not enough training facilities, and so on. There are several reasons for the officer shortage, but attrition is not one of them.

LOL. Officers cannot take early retirement just like that. HQ does not relive them. A minuscule amount get relived under exceptional circumstances.

It takes years to build up a good officer, shortages do not happen in a day. No one wants to admit the actual reasons for officer shortages. IA's Ratio of officer to soldier death is highest in the world.

I am done posting on this topic.

 

[janon]

LOL. Officers cannot take early retirement just like that. HQ does not relive them. A minuscule amount get relived under exceptional circumstances.

It takes years to build up a good officer, shortages do not happen in a day. No one wants to admit the actual reasons for officer shortages. IA's Ratio of officer to soldier death is highest in the world.

I am done posting on this topic.

No, not just like that. But they do take early retirement, an that is one of the factors for the officer shortage:

Over 10,000 soldiers opt out of Indian Army

But combat deaths is definitely not a causative factor for officer shortage, as you asserted earlier. Not in the same order of magnitude.