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Should the next Al-Khalid be based on Turkish Altay tank ?

Well the rounds they used were conventional KE rounds some where DU. Most tanks never even fired any off as they were destroyed before they could even sight the Abrams in. The ones that did fire something off never knocked the Abrams out and in return were destroyed. Also there were instances where T-72s outnumbered the Abrams tanks.

I was not trying to debate the proof that the Abrams performance was lacking in a hot desert climate but that the Abrams still dominated T72s easily in that enviroment. So i doubt its performance was very subject or else the U.S. would have addressed it along with Egypt which uses the export version.

Nor i was trying to compare Abram with T-72, my point was Abram's performance compared to Chinese one in hot condition and T-72 was never debated by me

Chinese equipment whether aircrafts or Tanks are customized according to Pakistan's requirement and the basic version is always a lot different when compared to Pakistan-oriented one
 
Hello guys,

China has been helping us alot and we are thankful for them. :china: However, Chinese are 20 years behind western countries in military Technology. Our Al-khalid tanks are based on the outdated Chinese T-85 tank which itself is based on the Soviet T-72 Tanks. We all know how the Iraqi T-72 were destroyed one by one by western Tanks like Abrams and Leopard.

In all honesty, the Best tanks in the world are Abrams, Leopard and the British Challenger. The Koreans are developing an advance tank K2 Black panther which is comparable to best western tanks. The Koreans have sold Turkey all the advance K2 tank technology to make the Turkish Altay Tank. I believe Pakistan needs to collaborate with Turkey and get the technology transfer from the Altay Tank to incorporate in our future Al-khalid Tank. The chinese technology can't compete with the Turkish/Korean/Western technology.


I am afraid al-khalids in their current form if ever were faced with Leopards or Abrams would end up like the Iraqi T-72 Tanks:pakistan:

how easily u compard T-72 with Alkhalid,
 
Despite not having a FCS, iraqi T72 did take shots at american tanks but were not able to penetrate the armor. What does it tell us all, you should always have a good ammo to counter any threat.

Tank warfare is a meele warfare. which means that if you pit 1 unit against another unit, they will come close to 500m to 1000m of eachother due to rapid acceleration towards the target and using tank warfare tactics. At the end, one with superior armor and superier weaponary will win, assuming they both are master of gunnery.

In iraqi conflicts at onetime, more than 200 tanks faced eachother and came close to within 500m of eachother, iraqi did shoot their targets deligently but were not able to penetrate, hence, they tried to retreat and got mauled by APFSDS rounds form Abrahams. Americans only used DU rounds in war (the most dense material known to universe). their DU rounds were able to penetrate 650mm turrents of T 72s.

Iraqi fired rounds but they bounced out of american tanks showing that they were good with gunery without FCS but were not able to penetrate american tanks.

At the end, Pakistan has to invest in world class ammo with 90% first hit capability at 3kms, APFSDS rounds 1800m/s+ mix ot DU or tungsten based alloy, and it must be certified to penetrate more than 750mm of armor.

M2's and Leopard 2 are certified to with stand 800mm+ on their body with 1000mm on turrets..

Pakistani tanks when using slower DU rounds of 1400m/s+ (still very fast) can penetrate around 600 to 650mm of armor at certified range of 2kms using AK1s.

We need to stress it again, ammo and ammo, more R&D is needed in this department, may be we can compromise on armor for now but again not for long because a tank crew is 100 times more valuable than a tank itsself.


Iraqi Ground Forces Equipment



I will give one example to everyone here, Muslims Ottamans were the first ones to bring artillery and cannons to european theater in 16th century. Their naval power ruled meditteranian, eastern atlantic ocean all the way to english channel and norwagean seas till late 19th century. it helped them conquer eastern europe and eliminated every threat after than. European superceded ottomons in R&D and made bigger and better guns. even ottomon fleet was the biggest in whole meddetteranian but was defeated by by smaller combined british and french navy at Battle of Navarino. by that time brits and french were the masters of weaponary and defeated wastly huge ottomon navy.

They again recovered but their rulers shut their navy down for 30 years leading to the collapse of Khalafat and end of muslims power in the world.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/ground-equipment-intro.htm


Inshort, i wont stress enough, R&D in latest tech is something Pakistan should strive for and i am sure with robust economy pakistan can make a leading class world army, airforce and navy !!!
 
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This was due to their experience with Iran where this idea worked quite well. So commanders tried to apply the same thing with the Abrams. Even if they did though the FCS the abrams uses is way ahead of what the T72 had. I doubt the T-72 had effective round hits on the move. Especially with that large gun.

The T 72 rounds that were made in Iraq at that time was of very poor quality. The T 72 never took into account the thermal imaging of the M1 Abrams. Infact the Challengers were more successful than the Abrams if the Gulf War commanders to be believed.
 
Should the next Al-Khalid be based on Turkish Altay tank ?

Collaboration between two brother states to develop NG AlKhalid tank is really great idea. As far as I know, Al-Khalid-I is based on Chinese technology. If Such a collaboration exists, The Khalid-II would be a mix of Chinese and NATO standart technologies...

Now a days, Aselsan is busy to develop Altay Tank's FCS, While Roketsan is working on latest generation armour technologies in Ballistic protection center of Turkey. Besides, Aselsan has modernizated Leo-2A4 tanks and trials are being commenced. A bit modified technologies applied for Leo-2 NG modernization would be applied for Altay tank as well.

YouTube - Aselsan Leopard 2A4 Tank Modernization

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very excellent tank bro.

as far as i see it uses l44 barrel.correct me if i am wrong.

also we just have 298 leopard2 a4 plus we ordered 51 more.these 51 tanks arrived to turkey?and all of the leopard 2a4 inventory ll receive this upgrade?
 
Hello guys,

China has been helping us alot and we are thankful for them. :china: However, Chinese are 20 years behind western countries in military Technology. Our Al-khalid tanks are based on the outdated Chinese T-85 tank which itself is based on the Soviet T-72 Tanks. We all know how the Iraqi T-72 were destroyed one by one by western Tanks like Abrams and Leopard.

In all honesty, the Best tanks in the world are Abrams, Leopard and the British Challenger. The Koreans are developing an advance tank K2 Black panther which is comparable to best western tanks. The Koreans have sold Turkey all the advance K2 tank technology to make the Turkish Altay Tank. I believe Pakistan needs to collaborate with Turkey and get the technology transfer from the Altay Tank to incorporate in our future Al-khalid Tank. The chinese technology can't compete with the Turkish/Korean/Western technology.


I am afraid al-khalids in their current form if ever were faced with Leopards or Abrams would end up like the Iraqi T-72 Tanks:pakistan:

Your last line is a BIG insult to our AKs buddy.....
 
what pak needs is something cheap and effective. so that rules full size MBTs out.
 
OLD AL KHALID features...It has been further upgraded now:

1200 Hp ukrainian engine
SESM ESM500 automatic transmission (also used in French Leclerc)

"Integrated Battlefield Management System" (IBMS), named 'Rehbar', a digital communications system developed domestically by HIT and CARE (Centre for Advanced Research in Engineering). [21] It comprises a flat-screen display mounted inside the tank which communicates with those of other vehicles, including command posts such as the HIT Sakb. It uses a data-link to facilitate secure communication of battlefield information between units, including tank video footage and information from unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV)
UAV conectivity=HIT
Advanced western digital fire-control system
3rd gen imagery systems=Sagem
NBC
GPS or some other advanced system=not known to me!
Jammers and sensors=HIT,Ukraine
Pakistani DU round, the Naiza 125 mm DU round (armor penetration: 550 mm in RHA at 2 km
HEAT-FS
HE-FS
APFSDS
Ukrainian 125mm Gun=produced by HIT
ATGM=
Gun-launched, laser-guided anti-tank guided missiles can also be launched the Russian-designed 9M119 Refleks and the Ukrainian-designed Kombat,modified in Pakistan to incorporate a larger warhead.

muzzle reference system

dual-axis stabilization system.

electro-hydraulic power drives

24-round ready-to-fire magazine

Load and fire at a rate of eight rounds per minute.

dual magnification day sight=Western

panoramic sight for all-around independent surveillance=Western

Both sights are dual-axis image stabilized and have independent laser range-finders.

The commander has the ability to acquire a target independently while the gunner is engaging another one thus giving it true hunter-killer capability.

The automatic target-tracking system is designed to work when tank and target are both moving.

Night vision for the gunner and commander is achieved through a dual-magnification thermal imaging sight. Both sights are integrated with the fire-control system= Western origin (probably french)

French Auto-tracking, interfaced with gunner station, firing four types of munitions, gunner's thermal imaging sight, commander's image intensification night vision sight, gyro-stabilized and UPS power supply system


Mission computers=HIT/Western


Top speed=70-72 Km per hour

A power-to-weight ratio of 26.66 hp/tonne gives acceleration from 0 to 32 km/h (0 to 20 mph) in 10 seconds, the speed and agility also helping to improve survivability.

PROTECTION=
modular composite armour and explosive reactive armour, nuclear-biological-chemical defences, an effective thermal smoke generator, internal fire extinguisher and explosion-suppression system. The infra-red signature of the tank is reduced by infra-red reflective paint.[3] Al-Khalid 1 is equipped with a newly developed indigenous ERA which is not only light weight, but also more resistant to APFSDS, HEAT and HE-FS rounds. ERA is developed by Global Industries and Defense Solutions (GIDS) Corporation. [24] Al-Khalid is also equipped with an Active protection system known as VARTA (guards) which is a Ukrainian modification of Russian Shtora APS system. HIT is also working on an indigenous APS system for future batches especially for Al-Khalid 2.

An advanced laser detection system from Al Technique Corporation (ATCOP) is present, the ATCOP LTS 1 laser threat warning system developed by Institute of Industrial Control Systems.[25] LTS 1 consists of a mast-mounted sensor and operator's control box, which includes a display showing threats 360 degrees around the tank. It can detect laser rangefinders and laser target designators as well as respond automatically by triggering acoustic alarms, smoke generators and other countermeasure systems. LTS 1 can detect laser devices operating in the 0.8 to 1.06 µm waveband, has a 360° field of view in azimuth (resolution of 15°) and a field of view in elevation of -15° to +90°. Operating voltage is 12 V or 24 V DC nominal with power consumption being 8 W nominal. The sensor head is 165 mm in diameter and 35 mm high while the control box is 80 x 130 x 55 mm in size. Laser Threat sensor LTS786P is an early warning device which gives audio and visual alarms of threat by sensing a laser beam aimed at it from any direction. The exact location of the threat (in-coming beam) is indicated by nine LEDs, covering all directions above horizon. It has the capability to differentiate between a laser Range Finder, Laser Target Designator or a Laser Target Tracker Signal. In addition, provision of sensor output signal, interfacing for appropriate counter-measures, is also available. It can be used on stationary or moving objects of any size or shape. Maximum operating Range is 10 km.

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS:

Response: Enhanced for Nd:YAG Laser Signal

Range: >10,000 m

Field of view: Capable of detecting any signal aimed towards LTS786P.

Detector type: Silicon Photodiode

Size (approx): 214 x 134 mm (sensor Head)

126 x 123 x 100 mm (Display Unit)

Weight 2 kg (sensor Head) (Approx): 1 kg (Display Unit)


NEW UPGRADES=

Ammunition capacity increased to 49 125 mm rounds, 1,500 12.7 mm rounds and 7,100 7.62 mm rounds.[1] Incorporates modifications made to the fire-control system, sensors, IBMS, side-skirts, track pads, auto-loader (rate of fire increased to 9 rounds per minute), Ukrainian Varta electro-optical jammer (disrupts laser rangefinders, laser designators and anti-tank guided missile tracking systems), Sagem third-generation thermal imagers and improved air conditioning system.



This beast can whoop the of T-90 any day!
 
This beast can whoop the of T-90 any day!
AK isnt the only tank which improves with time.........
there is lot to come with t-90as or am,arjun mk2 which will come with the finest APS(trophy),thales commanders sight,APU,RWS...
 
Why are u arguing on something that is ofcourse a fact that IRAQI t72 were Fuckin Insult to Russia they were low cost , and the ammunition was like practice rounds against Abrams and leopard ... Russians themselves Investigated why t-72 were so incapable and they found that they were downgraded to very extent . I bet the The Ajeya of India if Iraq had would have been threat to Abrams luckily they just face downgraded t72. Alkhalid can penetrated and destroy abrams and so abrams can destroy alkhalid.
 
SIR DO YOU REALLY THINK PAK CANT SUCH A HEAVY TANK ON ITS OWN DESPITE HAVING EXPERIENCE OF ATLEAST 20 YEARS ON THIRD GEN MBT..

we surely can

bt our doctrine as well terrain suite AK

i really like the turret layout of atlay bt this is too heavy for pakistan

we wont be able to deploy it fast...

the AK series will never cross 55tonnes mark
 
who told you this ?

Al khalid at present is a king of desert.remember when indians tested the t-90 is thar desert of rajistan the t-90 failed.

Why you always have half baked knowledge?

The trial was that T-90 pitted against Arjun MBT, and Arjun was become winner against the T-90. But it doesn't mean that T-90 was failed in desert condition.

well it was a news that arjun outnumbered the t-90 in desert.

so in desert t-90s are nt as capable as the Al khalid or the arjuns

Sorry man, but T-90 was pitted against Arjun, not against AK. So, we can't say AK is as capable as T-90.
 
If had to, should buy M1, Leopard II,Rassia and Chinese tank, troditional land army; others always said advanced, but only advanced on paper but not in real

for Korean K1 and K2 tank, K2 is on design so we talk about K1
20100906092624843.jpg

The K1 was designed by Chrysler Defense for Korea, based on the prototype of M1 Abrams which also made by Chrysler Defense, so the the name of K1 is K1A1, like the name M1A1. Soon afterwards, South Korean officials were dispatched to General Dynamics Land Systems for supervision of the design.

with some noticeable differences including a combined system of hydropneumatic suspension and torsion bars, and a river-crossing fording kit, to meet the required operational capability that was specific to combat operations in the mountainous and swampy terrain of the Korean Peninsula, the K1 is a Generic miniature version of M1, also called the baby tank of M1.
Engine and gun comes from Germany;

2010.9.6 the gun of K1 bombing bore while fire, from 1993 to 2010 this happend 9 times
2011 for major defects of Transmission, 450 K1 were recalled


and the K21 Troop Vehicle of Korea, sank during a river-crossing exercise :
Flaws in New S. Korean Troop Vehicle?
Flaws in New S. Korean Troop Vehicle? | Defense News | defensenews.com
A South Korean soldier died when an K21 amphibious infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) sank during a river-crossing exercise July 29. Army officials said the accident apparently revealed flaws in the design of the 25-ton K21 IFV, which was jointly developed by the state-funded Agency for Defense Development and Doosan DST.

It was the second time that the K21 had been sunk since the vehicle entered service last November after 10 years of development.

A month after the first deployment of K21s, one of them was sunk during a river-crossing training exercise south of Seoul.

Water flowed into the air intake hose of the vehicle's engine, said investigators, who speculated the air induction nozzle might have been attached too low.

The latest incident occurred around 1:50 p.m. when a Doosan technician was teaching Sgt.1st Class Kim - no first name was provided - and another solider to operate the vehicle at a training range about 320 kilometers southwest of Seoul, according to the Army.

The soldiers and the technician were inside the K21 when it fell into a reservoir. The Doosan official and the enlisted soldier escaped. Rescue workers salvaged the vehicle three hours later and found the NCO dead inside it.

"We'll thoroughly look into the cause of the incident in cooperation with Doosan DST," an Army spokesman said. "If there are problems with the vehicle's design, we'll hold the company accountable."

A Doosan official said, "We don't want to jump to conclusions in a hasty manner. We'll investigate the cause of the accident in a careful and measured way."

The K21 has often been referred to as the country's key export item in coming years, thanks to its high performance and price competitiveness.

Doosan DST and the Defense Acquisition Program Administration say the vehicle offers better firepower, mobility and survivability than the U.S. Army's M2A3 and Russia's BMP-3. The $3.4 million vehicle is cheaper than the U.S.-built Bradley and German Puma IFV with full options, whose per-unit prices are estimated between $4 million and $4.5 million, according to the company.

The K21 IFV has a 750-horsepower turbo-diesel engine and 40mm auto cannon designed to shoot down slow-moving helicopters and aircraft. It has digital communication, GPS receivers and intervehicle digital links.

The vehicle can travel as fast as 70 kilometers per hour on paved roads and cross rivers at 7.8 kph with the help of the Water Jet Propulsion System, according to an Army release.

The South Korean Army plans to acquire about 450 K21s over the next decade.


for K9 Self-propelled gun,
2010.12.10 Yan Ping Island, two of six K9 can't work when artillery action with North Korea, lost to N-Korea
 
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