France to support bid to export next-generation tank to Indian Army

[Wood]

Should India not rethink its tactical war operations doctrine of relying on tanks? Perhaps it is better to have fast moving lightly armored land vehicles that come with heavy close air support. The next generation of warfare will be with autonomous vehicles; not sure if a heavy armored tank that is built to support a 3 or 4 person crew will stand the test of time.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Well the basic tanks themselves were introduced quite some time apart (1993 versus 2015). Leclerc XLR (the current latest variant) is more comparable to the Leo 2A7V and M1A2C SEPV3 (latest variants of Leo 2 and Abrams respectively) and even then I’d give the edge to the German and American offering.

if France does participate in this tender I have no doubt they’d have to remake or massively upgrade the tank for it to compare to whatever else is on offer by the late 2020s/early 2030s (which is when India intends to buy a new tank). So maybe they’ll bring it on par with the other offerings.

However as it stands in 2021, The T-14 is still the most superior tank on paper (that is until the production issues are taken into account). With Leo 2A7V imo being the second best (best when production is taken into account), the T90MS provyv 3 and M1A2C give it good company, while others like the upcoming Challenger 3 and current Leclerc XLR, VT-4P and ZTZ-99A (which itself is in need of an upgrade) are not too far behind depending on the specific characteristics like mobility, firepower etc
None of these are bad tanks, just better at certain things as required by the user.

However one other major issue that may exist with india buying a French/western tank is logistics given they’d need to buy completely new ammo supplies (unless modifications are made to equip the French tanks with 125MM Russian style guns and make the tanks use Russian ammo). Even then the Indian tank doctrine and logistics would need a major overhaul to support this massive change (kind of a mashup of logistics as seen in the Egyptian army). It is doable, but it may be a lot more expensive than going for a newer Russian option, it also largely depends on how much France is willing to modify the Leclerc to suit Indian logistics, something that has been an issue in the past (for example: not giving IAF permission to use Euro/french missiles with Russian or Israeli radars present in Tejas and SU30).

Keep in mind that when a country like India intends to make a big defense purchase, companies will often make India-specific versions of their products because the design effort and cost is worth it given the large order india will be placing, with that in mind, Indian options are very open, because they can take any countries tank and (given the company/country is okay with it) modify it to their standards and then buy those/produce them locally.

either way, I don’t see India buy new tanks just yet, so we’ll have to wait a few years before we can see what india is after, the RFI does give some indication, but it’s not really binding, just a general layout, requirements can change rapidly.

i will as always press on the fact that india needs a stop gap until it gets new tanks, and the best stop gap is to modernize its T90S tanks, which unfortunately it seems to have no intentions of doing so far. This is also important because Indias new tank likely won’t replace the T90S, only the T72, so keeping them in service is important. As of now it seems that india is banking on the superiority of its other arms to make up for its lower armored capability, but you know how it is with india and Pakistan, they always make purchases to counter each other, sometimes Pakistan makes a big buy, sometimes india does it.

Tank combat is less relevant in the india-China theatre but light tanks come into play there a lot, something China has plenty of and india is interested in, but will be going for a foreign offering, let’s see what they go for, there are fewer options in this regard.

I'd also be interested in how India rebuilds the deployment infrastructure. I remember @blain2 once explaining how one of the challenges PA saw with deploying heavy tanks like the Abrams and Leopard was that the bridges weren't strong enough to support it. Sure, Pakistan could've fixed that issue on its end, but what if its tanks cross the border and find themselves stuck due to less suitable infrastructure in India? The Indians would've faced the same issue with Pakistan.

However, seeing how both the IA and PA are now investing in 50+ ton tanks, I imagine both would upgrade the deployment infrastructure for their respective tanks. So, is there a scenario in the next 10-15 years where both could possibly induct 55-65-ton tanks?

 

[SQ8]

Should India not rethink its tactical war operations doctrine of relying on tanks? Perhaps it is better to have fast moving lightly armored land vehicles that come with heavy close air support. The next generation of warfare will be with autonomous vehicles; not sure if a heavy armored tank that is built to support a 3 or 4 person crew will stand the test of time.

The Tank still has a place in modern combat of the type expected in the subcontinent but will eventually go lighter or sub-autonomous. The only thing that really may not go out of fashion is the person in the loop because empathy is something AI cannot have whose use(or the lack of it)factors into the most crucial decisions ever made in the history of humanity.

 

[Super Falcon]

Armata is a front runner french tanks lost in yemen and they are not good in heat conditions also they are over priced too

 

[hussain0216]

I wouldn't say tanks; just the Arjun series as 60 tons is apparently too heavy. This is the consequence of not participating in the early development as reviewers. Politics and commissions trump long-term strategies.

Didn't Indians realize it was too heavy when they were designing it?

 

[waz]

It will be a souped up Leclerc which offers similar capabilities to the VT-4, which already will be serving in the hundreds. Even if it comes in sizeable which will take some time Pakistan would be onto the next project in collaboration with the Turks on their program.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I'd also be interested in how India rebuilds the deployment infrastructure. I remember @blain2 once explaining how one of the challenges PA saw with deploying heavy tanks like the Abrams and Leopard was that the bridges weren't strong enough to support it. Sure, Pakistan could've fixed that issue on its end, but what if its tanks cross the border and find themselves stuck due to less suitable infrastructure in India? The Indians would've faced the same issue with Pakistan.

However, seeing how both the IA and PA are now investing in 50+ ton tanks, I imagine both would upgrade the deployment infrastructure for their respective tanks. So, is there a scenario in the next 10-15 years where both could possibly induct 55-65-ton tanks?

We’ve definitely already seen a step in that direction (heavier tanks) from PA with the VT4P, it’s the first tank in the PA to exceed the 50 ton mark (A normal VT4 is 52 tons, i assume the PA ones are closer to 53-54), it’s a barrier they just didn’t go past before, with the Al-Khalid-1 stopping at 49 tons. Reason being that all the bridges in the PA could carry a maximum weight of 50 tons. With the VT4 induction PA has inducted new bridges with 60 ton weight limits and certainly some other tactical and doctrinal changes would have been made to make sure these tanks serve in the right terrain.

India has too few Arjun’s at the moment to have gone ahead with drastic changes to its support infrastructure (though I do remember them getting new bridge layers too, even those wouldn’t be able to handle the Arjun’s weight), but since tanks are generally getting heavier, I expect Indias next (mass adopted) tank to exceed 50 tons as well.

So yes PA and IA are heading towards heavier tanks, but there’s a difference between a >60 ton tank and a 60+ ton tank, I personally don’t see PA going near or over that 60 ton mark (the tanks of that size are usually ones without auto-loaders and 4 crew members anyways, western designs, so I don’t think we’ll need to go there). IA on the other hand might consider a tank that heavy, it depends on how their command is thinking about it, do they want to keep the same doctrine and logistics as they have right now and get a tank with similar weight classes to the T90S and T72 (T-14?) or do they want to invest in a new heavier western tank? The RFI they released did say it needed to have an auto-loader, and I assume they’ll stick with that given 90% of their fleet has it, so again they might not need to exceed that mark either.

 

[Tshering22]

Didn't Indians realize it was too heavy when they were designing it?

Weight is just an excuse. You see, most of the seniors in the military in the procurement department have been in the pockets of arms companies; Russians, Americans, Israelis, French, British.. you name it. There is a lot of political lobbying done to ensure that the flow of arms continues and domestic projects are scuttled. Arjun mk1 saw modernization and updates using Army's feedback. Now they ordered a small quantity saying that the weight is too much and only fit for the western border with you lot due to the terrain.

 

[hussain0216]

Weight is just an excuse. You see, most of the seniors in the military in the procurement department have been in the pockets of arms companies; Russians, Americans, Israelis, French, British.. you name it. There is a lot of political lobbying done to ensure that the flow of arms continues and domestic projects are scuttled. Arjun mk1 saw modernization and updates using Army's feedback. Now they ordered a small quantity saying that the weight is too much and only fit for the western border with you lot due to the terrain.

That seems like a excuse for a poor I'll conceived project

 

[Tshering22]

That seems like a excuse for a poor I'll conceived project

The projects are good and was given appropriate funding over a period of years. There was a significant effort made by engineers and scientists and the leadership of that time agreed it. Sadly, as COAS changes, so changes the mentality of the leaders.

Hence the slow pace of militarization in India that has only picked up in the recent years.