Should Russia worry about Modi's U.S. visit?

[sancho]

What exactly did you expect on defence issues that was expected but not attained?

Apache and Chinook deals were expected to be signed, the M777 issue to be raised and by the fact that the PM himself aimed at improvements of relations in joint manufacturing / development of arms and techs, at least something in that regard too. I obviously didn't expected a game changer like the nuclear pact, but some improvements that would be achived wrt to easier ToT/offset policies of the US and using the Apache / Chinook deals now as gesture of Indias commitment to the US defence market, would had been the perfect chance to use that as such PR wasn't it?

 

[Bang Galore]

Apache and Chinook deals were expected to be signed, the M777 issue to be raised and by the fact that the PM himself aimed at improvements of relations in joint manufacturing / development of arms and techs, at least something in that regard too. I obviously didn't expected a game changer like the nuclear pact, but some improvements that would be achived wrt to easier ToT/offset policies of the US and using the Apache / Chinook deals now as gesture of Indias commitment to the US defence market, would had been the perfect chance to use that as such PR wasn't it?

Those (chopper deals) will happen anyways, there is nothing from the American side holding it up. Ajit Doval stayed back in the U.S. for 2 additional days during which he met Secretary Hagel , John Kerry & Susan Rice. The Americans are sending Frank Kendall, under-secretary (acquisition) in the defence department to meet with Indians (in 3rd week of November) to discuss further offers of defence technology after India insisted that they want more than has been presently offered.

I disagree with you on signing the Apache & Chinook deals & suggesting that they are something of a game changer (or a proof of commitment). They aren't. These deals happen to be won by American companies, nothing path breaking in itself & tom-toming this would simply have been pointless PR without solving the underlying issues. That should be left out of any "transformative" discussions & should be dealt with in due course. (As with Japan & the US-2, India must be willing to sometimes forego the "media moment" & pursue a longer course strategy)The PM's visit has laid down the grounds. If over the next few months, there is no major progress, I would then agree that India-US defence relations are not living up to their potential. Not otherwise.

 

[sancho]

Those (chopper deals) will happen anyways

Of course, but they are already fixed and hardly needs further negotiations anyway, so would that had been the perfect chance to publically sign the deals and show the "increasing relations" especially with the new Indian government and PM, yes it was. Will it have the same effect, when we sign it later? Definitely not. Sot that would had been simple things and the minimum one could had expected from the visit.

I disagree with you on signing the Apache & Chinook deals & suggesting that they are something of a game changer (or a proof of commitment). They aren't.

I guess you got me wrong there, I didn't said that they are game changers, just showed examples that were expected before the visit and that I actually didn't expected a game changer like the nuclear deal anyway. So my expectations were pretty low and aimed at basic things anyway.

 

[Bang Galore]

Of course, but they are already fixed and hardly needs further negotiations anyway, so would that had been the perfect chance to publically sign the deals and show the "increasing relations" especially with the new Indian government and PM, yes it was. Will it have the same effect, when we sign it later? Definitely not. Sot that would had been simple things and the minimum one could had expected from the visit. .

Doesn't matter if it has no impact when we do sign, it's not a game changer of an issue & we must be able to celebrate beyond just the transactional which is what the chopper deals are.

I guess you got me wrong there, I didn't said that they are game changers, just showed examples that were expected before the visit and that I actually didn't expected a game changer like the nuclear deal anyway. So my expectations were pretty low and aimed at basic things anyway

I understand but still disagree. They would just have been used as some kind of a diversion & is essentially not that important in the relationship that India seeks with the U.S. This is not about a nuclear type deal, though what that could be now is beyond me. trhis is about a real partnership, something that goes beyond a buyer seller relationship. That would , for me, be the real critical part in an Indiia-US defence relationship, not just what is purchased off the shelf.

 

[sancho]

Doesn't matter if it has no impact when we do sign, it's not a game changer of an issue & we must be able to celebrate beyond just the transactional which is what the chopper deals are.

Of course it does, Obama and the media made a huge issue after the C17 deal during his visit to India, or the Mirage upgrade for Sarkozy during his visit, additional MKIs when Putin came..., all no game changers but still more than enough to show importance in the relation of the countries. So it does matter for political reasons, even if the deals are not that important.

trhis is about a real partnership, something that goes beyond a buyer seller relationship. That would , for me, be the real critical part in an Indiia-US defence relationship, not just what is purchased off the shelf.

That's what Modi wanted too and what I hoped wrt fixing at least the offset issues in the M777 deal, but there again a chance to make some credible improvement seems to have went without any changes.

It's clear that the policies of both countries seems to be too different when it comes to defence, to actually make changes. We won't joint the fight against IS, while they don't want to go much beyond the buyer seller relation they are used to with NATO partners. And the Modi factor doesn't seem to have made an impact on political levels in the Indo-US relations so far.

 

[Abingdonboy]

so? we must be pretty pissed at china and our self too

russian media is the most unbiased media in the world

If I'm not wrong this very news presenter QUIT her job at RT because the RT network had too many ties to the Kremlin and was effectively acting as their mouthpiece.

 

[senheiser]

If I'm not wrong this very news presenter QUIT her job at RT because the RT network had too many ties to the Kremlin and was effectively acting as their mouthpiece.

nope

 

[Abingdonboy]

nope

Sorry that was another presenter- Liz Wahl who quit after Ms Martin's comments about Crimea.

 

[Bang Galore]

Of course it does, Obama and the media made a huge issue after the C17 deal during his visit to India, or the Mirage upgrade for Sarkozy during his visit, additional MKIs when Putin came..., all no game changers but still more than enough to show importance in the relation of the countries. So it does matter for political reasons, even if the deals are not that important.

For the Americans but not necessarily for India. This was Modi's first meeting, absolutely no point in rolling over & offering tokenisms to the relationship. If Modi, with all his relationship with Abe didn't bother signing a US-2 deal, there is no reason whatsoever to think he would do for the U.S. In any case, I don't think that matters much when you are just setting out the parameters for a long term relationship. The Americans know those deals are theirs anyway.

That's what Modi wanted too and what I hoped wrt fixing at least the offset issues in the M777 deal, but there again a chance to make some credible improvement seems to have went without any changes.

It would be silly to think that Modi would have spent time on specific issues like the M777 when he was meeting Obama for the first time. Give it 6 months & we will be able to make a judgment call on that.

It's clear that the policies of both countries seems to be too different when it comes to defence, to actually make changes.

Which is why we must resist tokenisms. They mean nothing.

We won't joint the fight against IS, while they don't want to go much beyond the buyer seller relation they are used to with NATO partners. And the Modi factor doesn't seem to have made an impact on political levels in the Indo-US relations so far.

A little early to say whether the "Modi factor" has had any influence or not, isn't it? I don't believe the Americans seriously expected India to join the fight against ISIS directly, not much that India could bring to the table anyway. This government has asked for more than a buyere seller relationship with the US but we must see how that pans out. The Americans have their own grouses, both on the nuclear deal as well as the defence agreement with India (the previous attempt fizzled out because Antony didn't care much for it & he was the PM for defence). We need to work on the implementation, not mere declarations of intent. We need to wait & see and judge the results after a reasonable time frame.

 

[SRBM2]

If I'm not wrong this very news presenter QUIT her job at RT because the RT network had too many ties to the Kremlin and was effectively acting as their mouthpiece.

Liz Wahl quit because of a set up that was already planned before hand, she didn't quit because of "LIES" but because of another job.

 

[sancho]

For the Americans but not necessarily for India. This was Modi's first meeting, absolutely no point in rolling over & offering tokenisms to the relationship. If Modi, with all his relationship with Abe didn't bother signing a US-2 deal, there is no reason whatsoever to think he would do for the U.S.

Two very different issues, the US-2 is a political procurement and for a game changer of Japanese policies towards India. While the Apache and Chinook helicopters, as you said yourself are far away from being that. They would had been nothing more than a gesture between the politicians and for the media, to show of good relations. The US-2 deal on the other side has major implications industrially as well as politically for India and Japan, even if the aircraft actually adds very little in operational terms, so you can't compare that with simple procurements or upgrades.

It would be silly to think that Modi would have spent time on specific issues like the M777 when he was meeting Obama for the first time.

LOL why so? The IA has stressed to the PM that it as an important issue, we know that the problem is not with the company, but with the US laws and restrictions, not to mention that we raised the issue of joint manufacturing and ToT when defence secretary Hagel visited India recently. So why wouldn't we raise the same issue again, in talks of the PM and the President in the US? This is an important point for us, maybe THE most important one to improve the defence / defence business relations to the US and since business is the priority of the PM, it wouldn't make much sense if he didn't at least tried to improve it and I'm pretty sure it was a topic, but nothing meaningful came out of it.

A little early to say whether the "Modi factor" has had any influence or not, isn't it?

"For this visit" it didn't and that's all I refered too. I have stated several times here, that I would make a judgement of the government or the MoD only after 6 month or so. That's why I'm mainly commenting on the "actual" changes that came with the new government and not about the results they achived. But that's different with this visit, since it had objectives in several fields and the results at least for the defence fields are disappointing, because nothing more than a re-newal of the existing defence pact happend or?

 

[Bang Galore]

Two very different issues, the US-2 is a political procurement and for a game changer of Japanese policies towards India. While the Apache and Chinook helicopters, as you said yourself are far away from being that. They would had been nothing more than a gesture between the politicians and for the media, to show of good relations. The US-2 deal on the other side has major implications industrially as well as politically for India and Japan, even if the aircraft actually adds very little in operational terms, so you can't compare that with simple procurements or upgrades.

The point is that Modi does not seem to favour the media moment over the longer term relationship being firmed up first.

LOL why so? The IA has stressed to the PM that it as an important issue, we know that the problem is not with the company, but with the US laws and restrictions, not to mention that we raised the issue of joint manufacturing and ToT when defence secretary Hagel visited India recently. So why wouldn't we raise the same issue again, in talks of the PM and the President in the US? This is an important point for us, maybe THE most important one to improve the defence / defence business relations to the US and since business is the priority of the PM, it wouldn't make much sense if he didn't at least tried to improve it and I'm pretty sure it was a topic, but nothing meaningful came out of it.

I'm reasonably certain that Modi would almost definitely not brought up this issue with Obama. Not at that level. Not happening. The deal is important but wouldn't need intervention at the highest level.

"For this visit" it didn't and that's all I refered too. I have stated several times here, that I would make a judgement of the government or the MoD only after 6 month or so. That's why I'm mainly commenting on the "actual" changes that came with the new government and not about the results they achived. But that's different with this visit, since it had objectives in several fields and the results at least for the defence fields are disappointing, because nothing more than a re-newal of the existing defence pact happend or?

That's an odd position to take. Had India signed the Apache & Chinook deals & maybe sorted out the M777 purchase, would you have considered that everything had gone on very well? This relationship is so much more than a purchase order & the PM's visit must have something more concrete. Why I said we need to take the PM's visit as a start & see over the next few months. If the PM has helped reset the relationship( surely it is not as if he could have just turned the key & Obama had everything on his side neatly laid out) the hard work of fastening the nuts & bolts of the relationship whose parameters hopefully has been set by this visit, would begin now.

 

[ni8mare]

Russia trusted India with Nuclear air craft carrier and what did India Do ?

Yes lick boots of Russia's enemies very sad

If Russia had given us a Aircraft carrier we would always support Russian stance

any body is not as good as pakistan in keep licking boots of usa....
has russia given ac for free?
why pakistan only go free maal?

 

[sancho]

The point is that Modi does not seem to favour the media moment over the longer term relationship being firmed up first.

You got to be kidding me right? Modi and not favouring media moments? He is not wasting anything in that regard and he has an excellent PR team around him, which was visible since the elections. When you look at the recent foreign visits and compare the PR parts for the media, with the actual achivements on political levels, you get a pretty one sided picture. So if the helicopter deals were not cleared during the visit it was surely not because they (he and his team) didn't wanted it.

I'm reasonably certain that Modi would almost definitely not brought up this issue with Obama. Not at that level. Not happening. The deal is important but wouldn't need intervention at the highest level.

When our defence minister and the US defence secretary recently discussed it and didn't reached to a conclusion and any report expected that the issue / the procurements, the next step that is available is the PM and President meeting. And I already gave plenty examples where defence deals were fixed during meetings of the highest levels, which also wasn't that important.

That's an odd position to take. Had India signed the Apache & Chinook deals & maybe sorted out the M777 purchase, would you have considered that everything had gone on very well?

If he had signed the helicopter deal, it the visit had got us the expected result. If he got the US to even consider officially about a change of ToT/offset issues, I would have applauded it because that was a big step and even, if the final joint statement had just saying, we have discussed it and made some progress, it would had been a clear signal, but none of that happened!

This relationship is so much more than a purchase order & the PM's visit must have something more concrete.

Of course it is, but this was not the 3rd or even 5th visit of the same PM, or of the same government, but the 1st visit of a new PM from a new government and the implications of this visit has to show if things will go on as with the former government, or if there will be changes / improvements. What we have seen though, is not different than what we have seen in the past few years. Defence pact, basic support for Indias permanent UN seat, basic support on terrorism, that's it. So even if no major result was achived (which is ok at this stage), not even basic implications of a good or improving defence relation can be seen.

 

[Trawllu]

bhai

russia should not worry about US visit but rather focus on definite outcomes achieveable during putins india visit