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Should Pakistan sign an early deal for the Type-55 Destroyer ?

Should Pakistan begin negotiations for Chinese Destroyers ?

  • Yes! After 2020 off course

    Votes: 101 77.7%
  • No! You're out of your mind

    Votes: 29 22.3%

  • Total voters
    130
I think we should have more bigger ships which we lack come out of f 22 frigate mindset if we have enemy like India who who has aircraft carrier under its desposal we should have destroyers
 
We don't need landing platforms, and i left out the subs because i was talking about main surface fleets. Of course we'll need Fast attack crafts, mine sweepers, and corvettes to cover areas close to coast line.

The times have changed PN was supposed to defend the coast but now the role has changed. PN would no longer remain a Green-Water-Navy. There is a very high possibility that PN would become a Blue-Water-Navy for the Arab Defence Force hence the requirement for a Landing Platform arises.

Even if we join the Yemen conflict the limitation for our troops and equipment movement is limited and also expensive.

I know why you had left out the subs but i could not resist.
 
This is a correct question but unfortunately PN requires the F-22P to be some what similar to the Milgem. Hence the new design must be made in China and then it can be produced in Pakistan. PN would indeed be building the last one or two in Khi.

As far as the question regarding the Submarines that is really difficult now. Though Pakistan is capable of manufacturing Agosta 90b the French are not interested in selling any more Agosta 90b's, infect they wanted Pakistan to invest in the new stealth sub that they are making and ordered by Saudi Arabia. For these subs there is some TOT problem as indicated in the news.

As you would already know that Pakistan Navy requires equipment quickly it is only possible if Pakistan is able to acquire that is already produced. Hence Pakistan Navy is looking for the U-214's which are under construction in Greece and some stored in Germany.
Quite suitable for PN and an existing development of F22P is the C28A built in China for Algeria, by the same company that supplied F22P to Pakistan. I see no reason why PN c/shouldn't use that design and build it in Pakistan directly, given it has already constructed an F22P.


I'm not sure I follow you on the subs. If PN got ToT on the subs and can build them domestically, how is it relevant whether or not the French are interested in selling any more Agosta 90Bs. So long as they are willing to deliver specialized materials needed (e.g. certain specific steels), Pakistan can build as many as they are willing and able to fund.

Greece will take delivery of any 214s currently building. All four will be in active service by 2016. Two more vessels might be built as replacement to the Neptune II program. There are no U214s (or 212As) stored in Germany.

GEujXav.jpg
 
I'm not sure I follow you on the subs. If PN got ToT on the subs and can build them domestically, how is it relevant whether or not the French are interested in selling any more Agosta 90Bs. So long as they are willing to deliver specialized materials needed (e.g. certain specific steels), Pakistan can build as many as they are willing and able to fund.

"As far as the question regarding the Submarines that is really difficult now. Though Pakistan is capable of manufacturing Agosta 90b the French are not interested in selling any more Agosta 90b's"

The Navies that are using Agosta's are in a process of decommissioning them, if PN would manufacture more then they are going to have problem in maintaining them unless and until France is willing to give Pakistan the entire production details of every single item including the metallurgy. This is a very big ask don't you think?

How and why did I forget C28A!!
C28A upgrades could be present in the F22P's but looking at PN they would rather have the actual F22P with the modifications that have been identified by our operations.

Just being Devils Advocate PN could ask China to produce 2 C28A and the remaining 2 F22P's could be made in Pakistan with the modifications.

If the deal of U214 from Germany is reached and SSA is willing to fund them then I don't think those can not be redirected to PN along with the ones Turkey and South Korea also making. If we try to asses the comments of the Turkish PM then there is a possibility of not just the subs but also some other stuff.

What do you think about French ship Siroco (L9012) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for the PN.
 
"As far as the question regarding the Submarines that is really difficult now. Though Pakistan is capable of manufacturing Agosta 90b the French are not interested in selling any more Agosta 90b's"

The Navies that are using Agosta's are in a process of decommissioning them, if PN would manufacture more then they are going to have problem in maintaining them unless and until France is willing to give Pakistan the entire production details of every single item including the metallurgy. This is a very big ask don't you think?

How and why did I forget C28A!!
C28A upgrades could be present in the F22P's but looking at PN they would rather have the actual F22P with the modifications that have been identified by our operations.

Just being Devils Advocate PN could ask China to produce 2 C28A and the remaining 2 F22P's could be made in Pakistan with the modifications.

If the deal of U214 from Germany is reached and SSA is willing to fund them then I don't think those can not be redirected to PN along with the ones Turkey and South Korea also making. If we try to asses the comments of the Turkish PM then there is a possibility of not just the subs but also some other stuff.

What do you think about French ship Siroco (L9012) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for the PN.
How so, since they are the original producer and can make as many parts as they want?
 
How so, since they are the original producer and can make as many parts as they want?

If I remember correctly there was stuff that came in directly from France, Pakistan Navy was not allowed its transfer of technology.

This is also going to happen if we go for the German U214's. But still these are currently being manufactured and would remain in service for a few more decades. So the Germans would not be closing down the parts assembly lines for an additional few decades after the last boats have been manufactured.
 
First of all let be this clear to everyone that Pakistan is no Blue Water navy... These 12000 tons are not useful what Pakistan need is max type 054 or Subs which we are getting so ok wid subs. just Type 054
 
First of all let be this clear to everyone that Pakistan is no Blue Water navy... These 12000 tons are not useful what Pakistan need is max type 054 or Subs which we are getting so ok wid subs. just Type 054

Why isn't Pakistan Blue Water Navy??? Didn't you know about our Sea limits increased from 200 nm to 350 nm...?

1102748307-1.jpg
 
Why isn't Pakistan Blue Water Navy??? Didn't you know about our Sea limits increased from 200 nm to 350 nm...?

View attachment 211305

A "blue water navy" encompasses one key concept that the PN lacks - Expeditionary Warfare. The PN can't support ships overseas, it doesn't have the replenishment and logistics capabilities. It can't project power.

According to the US Defense Security Service

The Defense Security Service of the United States has defined the blue-water navy as, "a maritime force capable of sustained operation across the deep waters of open oceans. A blue-water navy allows a country to project power far from the home country and usually includes one or more aircraft carriers.

Here's a bit about what makes the US Navy a blue water force:

Expeditionary Warfare

The Navy and Marine Corps have put in place a well-crafted transformation strategy to ensure that the nation has the naval expeditionary forces--ships, aircraft, weapons, and systems -- to carry out the full spectrum of roles, missions, and tasks in the new century. Expeditionary Warfare is the foundation for 21st-century peacetime forward deployments, responses to crises world wide, and warfighting to protect America's citizens and friends and vital U.S. interests wherever and whenever they might be at risk. It is the essence of naval operations from the sea--anytime.anywhere. Marine Corps forces have long provided a scalable, tailorable and expeditionary combined-arms option, enabling joint commanders to deal with a wide range of contingencies. For decades, however, Marine power projection has included a deliberate buildup of combat power ashore. This buildup required the establishment of a force beachhead, with relatively fixed fire support, logistics, and command and control positions located ashore. Only after naval forces fought ashore and established a beachhead would the MAGTF begin to focus its combat power on the Joint Force's operational objective. A combination of naval initiatives in advanced mobility, fires, and sustainment capabilities, leveraging substantially enhanced information connectivity, will enable future Marine forces to be employed in a dramatically different manner, making them an even more effective tool of national power.

Current and programmed amphibious assets predominantly fall into four Branches of the Expeditionary Warfare Division (N75): Special Operations (N751), Mine Warfare (N752), Amphibious Warfare (N753), and Explosive Ordnance Disposal (N757). The provided links offer a glimpse into some of the Division's priority programs and identifies the naval amphibious capabilities required by the Navy's expeditionary warfare forces of 2010 and beyond. All of these programs are essential to, and support the Navy and Marine Corps fundamental and enduring roles: sea control and maritime supremacy, power projection, strategic deterrence, forward naval presence, and strategic sealift.

At the most basic level, an amphibious force consists of a Navy element - a group of ships known as an amphibious task force (ATF) - and a landing force (LF) of U.S. Marines (and occasionally, U.S. Army troops). Together, these elements - and supporting units - are trained, organized, and equipped to perform amphibious operations. Now and in the future, commanders will have the ability to size and task-organize amphibious forces to accomplish a wide range of specific missions.

The resulting forces may range from a single Amphibious Ready Group/Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) [ARG/MEU (SOC)], to a larger organization capable of employing a Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB) or even a Marine Expeditionary Force (MEF).

Amphibious forces must be capable of performing missions ranging from humanitarian assistance and disaster relief to major theater war (MTW). Additionally, they can be configured and deployed to operate at various levels of conflict and in multiple theaters simultaneously. They can provide a presence that may preclude adventurous actions by a potential belligerent. Because they are seabased and because the decision to position and engage amphibious forces will always be easily reversible, amphibious forces greatly expand the repertoire of available response options. Among other national resources, they are particularly well placed to provide a demonstration of U.S. commitment and resolve to friends and allies as well as adversaries. Normally two to three ARGs are forward deployed: one in the Mediterranean / Arabian Gulf-Indian Ocean area, and one or two in the Western Pacific area. The other ships of the ARG are either working up to deploy, in transit, or in overhaul. One ARG/MEU is forward based in Sasebo and Okinawa Japan.

In most cases, the ATF will be deployed under the protective umbrella of an aircraft carrier battle group (CVBG), which provides cover for the ATF and combat support to operations ashore. Ships of the ATF are capable of embarking and supporting other forces when the mission requires, including U.S. Army, Special Operations Forces (SOF), or other joint and combined forces.

The ATF will be sized and organized to support landing forces ranging from the smallest to the largest. It will consist of a mix of amphibious ships, support ships, and perhaps Maritime Prepositioning Force (MPF) assets, which carry equipment and sustainment for Marine forces. In most cases, the ATF will be deployed under the protective umbrella of an aircraft carrier battle group (CVBG), which provides cover for the ATF and combat support to operations ashore.

A forward-deployed MEU (SOC) is the standard task-organized force used for most peacetime presence and smaller-scale, crisis-response missions. These smaller Marine Corps units can be "mixed and matched" to create larger and more capable MAGTFs. The MEU (SOC) deploys onboard amphibious warships - three-ship amphibious ready groups - which carry the helicopters and amphibious assault vehicles that transport Marine combat and support elements ashore, as well as the vertical/short take-off and landing (V/STOL) aircraft - both fixed- and rotary-wing - that provide integrated air support.

The Navy's 21st century amphibious fleet will eventually include 36 ships, intended to form 12 ARGs. Each ARG will normally consist of a large-deck amphibious assault ship, an LHA, LHA (R) or an LHD; an amphibious transport dock of the LPD-17 class; and a dock-landing ship of the LSD-41 or LSD-49 classes.

The Operational Maneuver from the Sea concept was published 4 January 1996 by the 31st commandant, General Charles C. Krulak. Like its predecessor - the approach to amphibious warfare developed at Quantico during the 1930s - OMFTS was a response to both danger and opportunity in a fluid strategic environment. The danger, summarized by the phrase "chaos in the littorals," originated with the myriad forces of national aspiration, religious intolerance, and ethnic hatred that marked the post-Cold War world. The opportunity came from significant enhancements in information management, battlefield mobility, and the lethality of conventional weapons.

OMFTS foresaw that a new series of threats and enhanced tactical capabilities would produce significant changes in the Marine Corps' operational environment. The nature of war remained the same, and the Corps' fundamental doctrine of maneuver warfare remained as valid as ever before, but "chaos" and technology would inevitably affect where we fought, whom we fought, and how we fought. OMFTS understood the need for military innovation; it encouraged debate and experimentation and provided a framework for Marines, Sailors, civilian employees and contractors within which to turn concept into reality.

As the naval white papers .From the Sea and Forward.From the Sea provided the foundation for the OMFTS concept, OMFTS spawned the tactical concept, Ship-to-Objective Maneuver, as well as the operational and tactical sustainment concept, Seabased Logistics. These and other forward-looking concepts, such as Sustained Operations Ashore (1996); A Concept for Future Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (1997); Concept for Future Naval Mine Countermeasures in Littoral Power Projection (1998); and Beyond C2: A Concept for Comprehensive Command and Coordination of the Marine Air-Ground Task Force (1998) have driven Marine education and training and research, development and acquisition. These concepts in turn have become integral elements of the Marine Corps' capstone concept, Expeditionary Maneuver Warfare, published in November 2001.

OMFTS fuses amphibious ship and landing force maneuver to create and exploit opportunities in time and space to project amphibious power ashore as seamlessly as possible. The impact of this kind of maneuver warfare was foreshadowed in Operation Enduring Freedom, when Marines seized a forward operating base in Afghanistan, approximately 400 miles inland from their seabase in the Arabian Sea. However, though the Marines successfully demonstrated the viability of these new warfighting concepts with current platforms, they will not be truly realized until they are married with the future elements of the "mobility triad" - the Advanced Amphibious Assault Vehicle (AAAV), the MV-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft, and the Landing Craft, Air Cushion (LCAC).

The ideas and direction in OMFTS still continue to frame and guide Marine Corps thought and action, and have also had influence beyond the Marine Corps.

.........................................................................................................................................................

This force, the USMC, has the means to project power far from US shores. It has replenishment and logistics support, inter-operational and trans-service capabilities with the USN and USAF and isn't confined to US or regional waters.

The PN doesn't have the same power-projection capabilities. It lacks logistical support and replenishment and can't sustain long-duration deployments in deep ocean waters. The PN is a Green water navy. That is to say it's one that can operate effectively in littoral water.

India, China, Brazil, South Korea, these are strong naval powers, but even they lack overseas support. The US, UK, France and to a lesser degree Russia and japan, these nations and their navies can support long-term overseas operations.
 
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A "blue water navy" consists of one key concept that the PN lacks - Expeditionary Warfare. The PN can't support ships overseas, it doesn't have the replenishment and logistics capabilities. It can't project power.

This force, the USMC, has the means to project power far from US shores. It has replenishment and logistics support, inter-operational and trans-service capabilities with the USN and USAF and isn't confined to US or regional waters.

The PN doesn't have the same power-projection capabilities. It lacks logistical support and replenishment and can't sustain long-duration deployments in deep ocean waters. The PN is a Green water navy. That is to say it's one that can operate effectively in littoral water.

Ouch ! :(

Keep underestimating us and who knows a PN submarine may just emerge out of Lake Michigan ! :o:
 
A "blue water navy" encompasses one key concept that the PN lacks - Expeditionary Warfare. The PN can't support ships overseas, it doesn't have the replenishment and logistics capabilities. It can't project power.

According to the US Defense Security Service"

The Defense Security Service of the United States has defined the blue-water navy as, "a maritime force capable of sustained operation across the deep waters of open oceans. A blue-water navy allows a country to project power far from the home country and usually includes one or more aircraft carriers.

Here's a bit about what makes the US Navy a blue water force:

Expeditionary Warfare

The Navy and Marine Corps have put in place a well-crafted transformation strategy to ensure that the nation has the naval expeditionary forces--ships, aircraft, weapons, and systems -- to carry out the full spectrum of roles, missions, and tasks in the new century. Expeditionary Warfare is the foundation for 21st-century peacetime forward deployments, responses to crises world wide, and warfighting to protect America's citizens and friends and vital U.S. interests wherever and whenever they might be at risk. It is the essence of naval operations from the sea--anytime.anywhere. Marine Corps forces have long provided a scalable, tailorable and expeditionary combined-arms option, enabling joint commanders to deal with a wide range of contingencies. For decades, however, Marine power projection has included a deliberate buildup of combat power ashore. This buildup required the establishment of a force beachhead, with relatively fixed fire support, logistics, and command and control positions located ashore. Only after naval forces fought ashore and established a beachhead would the MAGTF begin to focus its combat power on the Joint Force's operational objective. A combination of naval initiatives in advanced mobility, fires, and sustainment capabilities, leveraging substantially enhanced information connectivity, will enable future Marine forces to be employed in a dramatically different manner, making them an even more effective tool of national power.

Current and programmed amphibious assets predominantly fall into four Branches of the Expeditionary Warfare Division (N75): Special Operations (N751), Mine Warfare (N752), Amphibious Warfare (N753), and Explosive Ordnance Disposal (N757). The provided links offer a glimpse into some of the Division's priority programs and identifies the naval amphibious capabilities required by the Navy's expeditionary warfare forces of 2010 and beyond. All of these programs are essential to, and support the Navy and Marine Corps fundamental and enduring roles: sea control and maritime supremacy, power projection, strategic deterrence, forward naval presence, and strategic sealift.

At the most basic level, an amphibious force consists of a Navy element - a group of ships known as an amphibious task force (ATF) - and a landing force (LF) of U.S. Marines (and occasionally, U.S. Army troops). Together, these elements - and supporting units - are trained, organized, and equipped to perform amphibious operations. Now and in the future, commanders will have the ability to size and task-organize amphibious forces to accomplish a wide range of specific missions.

The resulting forces may range from a single Amphibious Ready Group/Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) [ARG/MEU (SOC)], to a larger organization capable of employing a Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB) or even a Marine Expeditionary Force (MEF).

Amphibious forces must be capable of performing missions ranging from humanitarian assistance and disaster relief to major theater war (MTW). Additionally, they can be configured and deployed to operate at various levels of conflict and in multiple theaters simultaneously. They can provide a presence that may preclude adventurous actions by a potential belligerent. Because they are seabased and because the decision to position and engage amphibious forces will always be easily reversible, amphibious forces greatly expand the repertoire of available response options. Among other national resources, they are particularly well placed to provide a demonstration of U.S. commitment and resolve to friends and allies as well as adversaries. Normally two to three ARGs are forward deployed: one in the Mediterranean / Arabian Gulf-Indian Ocean area, and one or two in the Western Pacific area. The other ships of the ARG are either working up to deploy, in transit, or in overhaul. One ARG/MEU is forward based in Sasebo and Okinawa Japan.

In most cases, the ATF will be deployed under the protective umbrella of an aircraft carrier battle group (CVBG), which provides cover for the ATF and combat support to operations ashore. Ships of the ATF are capable of embarking and supporting other forces when the mission requires, including U.S. Army, Special Operations Forces (SOF), or other joint and combined forces.

The ATF will be sized and organized to support landing forces ranging from the smallest to the largest. It will consist of a mix of amphibious ships, support ships, and perhaps Maritime Prepositioning Force (MPF) assets, which carry equipment and sustainment for Marine forces. In most cases, the ATF will be deployed under the protective umbrella of an aircraft carrier battle group (CVBG), which provides cover for the ATF and combat support to operations ashore.

A forward-deployed MEU (SOC) is the standard task-organized force used for most peacetime presence and smaller-scale, crisis-response missions. These smaller Marine Corps units can be "mixed and matched" to create larger and more capable MAGTFs. The MEU (SOC) deploys onboard amphibious warships - three-ship amphibious ready groups - which carry the helicopters and amphibious assault vehicles that transport Marine combat and support elements ashore, as well as the vertical/short take-off and landing (V/STOL) aircraft - both fixed- and rotary-wing - that provide integrated air support.

The Navy's 21st century amphibious fleet will eventually include 36 ships, intended to form 12 ARGs. Each ARG will normally consist of a large-deck amphibious assault ship, an LHA, LHA (R) or an LHD; an amphibious transport dock of the LPD-17 class; and a dock-landing ship of the LSD-41 or LSD-49 classes.

The Operational Maneuver from the Sea concept was published 4 January 1996 by the 31st commandant, General Charles C. Krulak. Like its predecessor - the approach to amphibious warfare developed at Quantico during the 1930s - OMFTS was a response to both danger and opportunity in a fluid strategic environment. The danger, summarized by the phrase "chaos in the littorals," originated with the myriad forces of national aspiration, religious intolerance, and ethnic hatred that marked the post-Cold War world. The opportunity came from significant enhancements in information management, battlefield mobility, and the lethality of conventional weapons.

OMFTS foresaw that a new series of threats and enhanced tactical capabilities would produce significant changes in the Marine Corps' operational environment. The nature of war remained the same, and the Corps' fundamental doctrine of maneuver warfare remained as valid as ever before, but "chaos" and technology would inevitably affect where we fought, whom we fought, and how we fought. OMFTS understood the need for military innovation; it encouraged debate and experimentation and provided a framework for Marines, Sailors, civilian employees and contractors within which to turn concept into reality.

As the naval white papers .From the Sea and Forward.From the Sea provided the foundation for the OMFTS concept, OMFTS spawned the tactical concept, Ship-to-Objective Maneuver, as well as the operational and tactical sustainment concept, Seabased Logistics. These and other forward-looking concepts, such as Sustained Operations Ashore (1996); A Concept for Future Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (1997); Concept for Future Naval Mine Countermeasures in Littoral Power Projection (1998); and Beyond C2: A Concept for Comprehensive Command and Coordination of the Marine Air-Ground Task Force (1998) have driven Marine education and training and research, development and acquisition. These concepts in turn have become integral elements of the Marine Corps' capstone concept, Expeditionary Maneuver Warfare, published in November 2001.

OMFTS fuses amphibious ship and landing force maneuver to create and exploit opportunities in time and space to project amphibious power ashore as seamlessly as possible. The impact of this kind of maneuver warfare was foreshadowed in Operation Enduring Freedom, when Marines seized a forward operating base in Afghanistan, approximately 400 miles inland from their seabase in the Arabian Sea. However, though the Marines successfully demonstrated the viability of these new warfighting concepts with current platforms, they will not be truly realized until they are married with the future elements of the "mobility triad" - the Advanced Amphibious Assault Vehicle (AAAV), the MV-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft, and the Landing Craft, Air Cushion (LCAC).

The ideas and direction in OMFTS still continue to frame and guide Marine Corps thought and action, and have also had influence beyond the Marine Corps.

.........................................................................................................................................................

This force, the USMC, has the means to project power far from US shores. It has replenishment and logistics support, inter-operational and trans-service capabilities with the USN and USAF and isn't confined to US or regional waters.

The PN doesn't have the same power-projection capabilities. It lacks logistical support and replenishment and can't sustain long-duration deployments in deep ocean waters. The PN is a Green water navy. That is to say it's one that can operate effectively in littoral water.

India, China, Brazil, South Korea, these are strong naval powers, but even they lack overseas support. The US, UK, France and to a lesser degree Russia and japan, these nations and their navies can support long-term overseas operations.
Thanks mate for replying him.350nm is blue water navy for em...

Ouch ! :(

Keep underestimating us and who knows a PN submarine may just emerge out of Lake Michigan ! :o:
Ofcourse they can reach. even f22p a light frigate of us is even intercontinental in range 7000+km range. Pakistan navy is more of small Blue force navy that can only conduct operations for a tiny period of time. Not project complete Force.
 
Ofcourse they can reach. even f22p a light frigate of us is even intercontinental in range 7000+km range. Pakistan navy is more of small Blue force navy that can only conduct operations for a tiny period of time. Not project complete Force.

Pakistan Navy's sole responsibility is to defend the territorial integrity of Pakistan ! :agree:
 

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