Should pakistan increase the number of troops

[Signalian]

As you mentiond mujahid force and janbaz force combined numbers upto 160,000.00 and they have training. Cant we train them and equip with tanks and apc it will increas number above 700k for regular troops and will lessen the burden on troops and increase our offensive punch. Incase of a war then we dont have divert our forces to run from one point to another point like we had to do in 1965 to divert forces from chanb to defence of lahore n from khem karan to sialkot and that haltrd our offensive

I agree with you.

The concept of these two forces is to provide defence. India is numerically larger and Pakistan Army conserves its forces for attacks rather than using best trained formations for defence.Since Tanks and APC's are offensive weapon platforms, they are used for attacks and rapid deployment of infantry for assaulting enemy positions.

In many other countries, National Guard is armed with heavy weapons but in Pakistan heavy weapons are already short in number and sometimes outdated (T-59/T-69/ artillery guns etc) for Army, there is nothing left for NG.

As last resort, Pakistan also has "Hurs"

Yes I agree. As economy improves and our defence budget increases Pakistan should increase its Army size 0.8 million and also Pakistan should number of marines to one hundred and fifty thousand.

Agree with Increasing marines for the Navy. PA already has strong contingent of troops for ground ops..

 

[WaLeEdK2]

I agree with you.

The concept of these two forces is to provide defence. India is numerically larger and Pakistan Army conserves its forces for attacks rather than using best trained formations for defence.Since Tanks and APC's are offensive weapon platforms, they are used for attacks and rapid deployment of infantry for assaulting enemy positions.

In many other countries, National Guard is armed with heavy weapons but in Pakistan heavy weapons are already short in number and sometimes outdated (T-59/T-69/ artillery guns etc) for Army, there is nothing left for NG.

As last resort, Pakistan also has "Hurs"



Agree with Increasing marines for the Navy. PA already has strong contingent of troops for ground ops..

What the army needs is not more troops but more specialised units in the army. It's more cost effect and will likely yield more favourable results. Experience from Ops in the recent past will help facilitate this idea.

 

[Signalian]

Airforce and Navy are equally important elements for the country’s security. PAF has sufficient manpower, what is needed is more advance aircraft and state of the art anti-aircraft defence equipment. Navy is the only branch where there is a genuine need for more men as well as more fighting ships.

If two-three additional PAF squadrons only equipped with CAS aircraft are raised, this will save lives of hundreds of Pakistani soldiers.

Ten bunkers armed with LMG's, RCL's, ATGM's and getting additional cover by Indian mortars and artillery of a heavily reinforced indian position can take lives of 20-40 Pakistani soldiers in an assault on this position.
Just 2 PAF CAS aircraft can neutralise this target without any loss or atleast soften it up to reduce casualty rate of assaulting PA troops.

I also agree with expanding navy and marines.

What the army needs is not more troops but more specialised units in the army. It's more cost effect and will likely yield more favourable results. Experience from Ops in the recent past will help facilitate this idea.

can you plz elaborate specialised units?

 

[WaLeEdK2]

If two-three additional PAF squadrons only equipped with CAS aircraft are raised, this will save lives of hundreds of Pakistani soldiers.

Ten bunkers armed with LMG's, RCL's, ATGM's and getting additional cover by Indian mortars and artillery of a heavily reinforced indian position can take lives of 20-40 Pakistani soldiers in an assault on this position.
Just 2 PAF CAS aircraft can neutralise this target without any loss or atleast soften it up to reduce casualty rate of assaulting PA troops.

I also agree with expanding navy and marines.


can you plz elaborate specialised units?

What I was thinking is something similar to the US army Rangers. Or do we already have something like that? I don't think our FC Rangers really fit that role no?

 

[Signalian]

What I was thinking is something similar to the US army Rangers. Or do we already have something like that? I don't think our FC Rangers really fit that role no?

LCB

 

[omega supremme]

If Indian armoured thrust breaks through PA forward positions then it is time to use Nasr.

And what if the Nasr is taken out, the light of hope you are so much believing in. What will be our next counter will we fight an enemy who has so much increased his army and has div size armoured forces just for cold start .Your AF is not very big to help you counter so many armoured thrusts. Army will be stretched, forces from the Punjab shall be moved to protect southern border, something not in our favour.

1. Punjab is strong as most forces are deployed over there
2. Kashmir is also good in case of war because our main offence will be there
3. Sindh is the weakest having only one corp this is what the indians see as a good point for cold start to have success.

NOTE: More forces are needed to be raised having one more corp in Sindh will do the the thing making a credible deterrence.

 

[Bouncer]

Long story short. Increase FC and get defensive capabilities. Very much better.

This. Paramilitary capabilities should be enhanced.

 

[iby32]

When the clouds of war show up, the units start moving towards their deployment areas. In this case, towards Sindh borders.The whole Corps doesnt move altogether, usually in the form of brigades.

Assuming a scenario of Indian cold start, which means indian armoured and mechanised Brigades of Holding Corps will attack Pakistan, the main requirement is to blunt the attacks of T-90 and BMP-2 at the border.

The 16th Infantry Div and 18th Infantry Div have atleast one brigade deployed already near the border. The deployments in army usually show where the HQ's are situated, the deployment of manoeuvre battalions and brigades (fighting troops) can be at a distance.

If you look at Indian army deployments of armoured divisions, they are at a much more distance from border compared to pakistani armoured divisions.

That is very knowledgable post thanks for sharing that

 

[CHACHA"G"]

To the best of my knowledge, currently only mountain force we have is the 12th Infantry Div. the Northern Light Infantry and probably the 50 or so battalions of Azad Kashmir Regiment. Why I did not mention specialised 'Mountain Infantry' is because in my opinion, Light Infantry can do most of the tasks of mountain infantry.

India - Pakistan, main set piece battle would probably be fought either on the Punjab plains or along the Rajasthan desert. Whereas Mountain infantry would not be able handle desert conditions. Light infantry Divs should be able to fight equally well on the mountains as well as on the plains. Additionally, Light Infantry, with sufficient number of medium lift helos, can be quickly shifted from one front to another, acting as a force multiplier

Sir with all respect we just lost 7 soldiers last night , as u said it is a LIGHT Infantry which we are using for Mountain war , Sir we can keep using them and as per my knowledge they are as good in Punjab or Sindh as they are in AJK.
What I want to say is a Corps which is heavily eqm and Trainee for Mountain war , Lots of Helis and other eqm accordingly , In short a Heavy Mountain Infantry . Proper training and Correct and Proper Equipment in Good numbers needed .
This new Corps will help a lot on LOC , They can do the much of the Job and in Proper way , The other u mention can help them and also they can be used in GB for Afghan border and in Punjab or Sindh or any other part of the country.

Thats my concernd reason i open this thread because we dont have enough forces between rahim yar and karachi only one corp with 3 division as opossing to 3 indian corps as well as in kashmir 150000 pak troops against 700000 indian troops 1:7 in favour of india

Bro that's one strong reason , In long run we surly need a full Corps 2 to 3 Divs strength there (costly , but effective) but for the time being we can do many things.
If we have a mountain Corps that can free some units , and also if we upgrade Lahore and Gujranwala Corps (from Inf. Divs to Proper New Mechanized Divs) as I said in my previous post that will also have a great effect , That way we can save a lot and can improve the effectiveness of our Troops in all manners .
But for that Border we can add one Mech Inf Brig and one Armer Brig to Bahawalpur Corps or Quetta Corps or even to Karachi Corps.
This combine force of a Div is enough to counter any Indian attack, They can stop the attack until Quetta Corps Reach the Border.

12 Corps at Quetta with 33rd and 41st Infantry divisions provides depth to 5 Corps Karachi as well as acts as holding Corps for defence of Sindh.

Sir don't u think our Quetta Corps is to stretched , I mean just look at Map , They have Afghan Border + Iran Border and then they also have to come on Indian Border.

When the clouds of war show up, the units start moving towards their deployment areas. In this case, towards Sindh borders.The whole Corps doesnt move altogether, usually in the form of brigades.

Assuming a scenario of Indian cold start, which means indian armoured and mechanised Brigades of Holding Corps will attack Pakistan, the main requirement is to blunt the attacks of T-90 and BMP-2 at the border.

The 16th Infantry Div and 18th Infantry Div have atleast one brigade deployed already near the border. The deployments in army usually show where the HQ's are situated, the deployment of manoeuvre battalions and brigades (fighting troops) can be at a distance.

If you look at Indian army deployments of armoured divisions, they are at a much more distance from border compared to pakistani armoured divisions.

Sir its not Brigades , It will be our 200000 solders with Thousands of Supporting Vehicles like ,Tanks + IFVs + AFVs+ APCs. Seriously a wall of fire and Armour( cold or hot start ).
We do need a proper Corps for that area but we also cant afford it right now ,
Best is to have a mountain Corps First , Then Upgrade the Lahore and Gujranwala Corps ,This will free lots of Troops and also take all the advantage of IA in Punjab and AJK.
if still needed then as I said above we can add 2 Brig (1 Mech Inf. , 1 Armer Brig. ) both Independent in Quetta or Bahawalpur Corps for defending the Desert .

 

[iby32]

Sir with all respect we just lost 7 soldiers last night , as u said it is a LIGHT Infantry which we are using for Mountain war , Sir we can keep using them and as per my knowledge they are as good in Punjab or Sindh as they are in AJK.
What I want to say is a Corps which is heavily eqm and Trainee for Mountain war , Lots of Helis and other eqm accordingly , In short a Heavy Mountain Infantry . Proper training and Correct and Proper Equipment in Good numbers needed .
This new Corps will help a lot on LOC , They can do the much of the Job and in Proper way , The other u mention can help them and also they can be used in GB for Afghan border and in Punjab or Sindh or any other part of the country.




Bro that's one strong reason , In long run we surly need a full Corps 2 to 3 Divs strength there (costly , but effective) but for the time being we can do many things.
If we have a mountain Corps that can free some units , and also if we upgrade Lahore and Gujranwala Corps (from Inf. Divs to Proper New Mechanized Divs) as I said in my previous post that will also have a great effect , That way we can save a lot and can improve the effectiveness of our Troops in all manners .
But for that Border we can add one Mech Inf Brig and one Armer Brig to Bahawalpur Corps or Quetta Corps or even to Karachi Corps.
This combine force of a Div is enough to counter any Indian attack, They can stop the attack until Quetta Corps Reach the Border.



Sir don't u think our Quetta Corps is to stretched , I mean just look at Map , They have Afghan Border + Iran Border and then they also have to come on Indian Border.




Sir its not Brigades , It will be our 200000 solders with Thousands of Supporting Vehicles like ,Tanks + IFVs + AFVs+ APCs. Seriously a wall of fire and Armour( cold or hot start ).
We do need a proper Corps for that area but we also cant afford it right now ,
Best is to have a mountain Corps First , Then Upgrade the Lahore and Gujranwala Corps ,This will free lots of Troops and also take all the advantage of IA in Punjab and AJK.
if still needed then as I said above we can add 2 Brig (1 Mech Inf. , 1 Armer Brig. ) both Independent in Quetta or Bahawalpur Corps for defending the Desert .

Agreed

 

[SarthakGanguly]

As title say can we increase the number of regular troops for army about 200,000.00 as currently we only have 550'000.00 active troops as compare to 1million plus indian army and we are engaged in war on both fronts. Is there any possiblities that we increase numbers from reserves into regulars or can we transfer troops from rangers and fc into regular forces. These aditional numbers can enhance our defences on eastren border.

I agree. Pakistan should at least have about 1.5 million troops in all. The army should be increased to the strength of about 900,000, the rest recruits going to the FC, Rangers, etc. For a two front war, that should be a minimum.

 

[iby32]

I agree. Pakistan should at least have about 1.5 million troops in all. The army should be increased to the strength of about 900,000, the rest recruits going to the FC, Rangers, etc. For a two front war, that should be a minimum.

900,000.00 regular troops are way to much. we are not going to attack india my main concern is to increase numbers upto 150k to 200k so can streghten our offensive defence doctrine. Cover gaps left between karachi and rahim yar khan and at least one strike corps so we do not divert our forces from any sector to another only strike corps can be shiftd in defensive role when need arises but we ca not afford to move our holding formations from main defences to attack across the border and all of sudden we can not increase the number to double the current strength

 

[Signalian]

Sir don't u think our Quetta Corps is to stretched , I mean just look at Map , They have Afghan Border + Iran Border and then they also have to come on Indian Border.

Sir,
A bit of history about deployment of Army formations in Quetta and their movement in Indo-Pak conflicts.

In 1965, Rann of Kutch war, 8 Infantry division was stationed at Quetta. Its 6th Infantry Brigade relocated all the way from Quetta to Rann of Kutch to take part in the conflict. Rann of Kutch is an area of Sindh Border with India.

During Afghan war, The 12 Corps in Quetta had 2 infantry divisions under its command to counter a Soviet invasion, 40th and 41st Infantry Divisions. Soviet withdrawal enabled the 40th Infantry Division to relocate to Okara at eastern border with India.

The 12 Corps Quetta had only 41st Infantry Division so it was then attached 33rd Infantry Division and with an independent armoured brigade and independent infantry brigade, this made it a proper Corps HQ.

In 1999, Kargil war, the troops of 12 Corps Quetta moved to reinforce 5 Corps area of operations and thats what its mandate became.

In 2001-2, The 12 Corps was again moved to eastern border to reinforce 5 Corps Karachi .When it moved back in 2004 to Quetta, it got engaged in WOT on western border, but its main mandate to bolster 5 Corps Karachi in war scene with India remains the same.

You can clearly see that Formations in Quetta are poised to fight India on eastern border. PA feels no threat from Afghanistan or Iran to establish a Corps HQ in Quetta solely for them.
FC and its wings are the main force deployed near Iran and Afghanistan borders for border protection.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

You can clearly see that Formations in Quetta are poised to fight India on eastern border. PA feels no threat from Afghanistan or Iran to establish a Corps HQ in Quetta solely for them.
FC and its wings are the main force deployed near Iran and Afghanistan borders for border protection

Sir , a good history reminder and good overall read ,I agree with u in general , But with all respect are u sure about the Read part, and even in current Geopolitical situations. its not 1999 or 2002.
If u look at Baluchistan , its borders and internal proxy war I don't think in future we will have same advantage, Right now we are engage in TWO front war on Borders (Afghans + India) and then an Internal Proxy war.
For a moment we have to think what if we are not able to move Quetta Corps on Indian Border? because of any reason.
Our FC is good but sadly right now they don't have enough numbers "men power and EQM" and training to fought a war on border(Afghan) and also take Proxies in Province.
As I said we need Mountain Corps , and upgrade some others . And we can add some more men power in Quetta or Bahawalpur Corps if needed.
On FC part , My disagreement is right now they don't have the capacity , If we build it then yes our Quetta Corps will do the same as it always done in History.

On a side Note: Sir do you think we will have enough time to deploy our Troops in Desert , When Indian Armour shoots in our Border , and we don't have enough force on border to stop them.
My guess is no we don't , that is Y we have Nasar .................................................... So Y not we Turn this No to Yes and release the Pressure of International Community about our Tactical Nukes .
Thank you

 

[ghauri05]

12 Corps at Quetta with 33rd and 41st Infantry divisions provides depth to 5 Corps Karachi as well as acts as holding Corps for defence of Sindh.

India is propagating the idea of 2 front war just for increasing it's military might...we know china is a responsible country. i don't think china will start a war for pakistan ..the most it can do is provide military hardware.
The real threat of 2 front war is impending on Pak...afghans will be more than happy to become a puppet of india..in that case we won't be able to move forces from balochistan...and our sindh will also be at huge risk. This is a great weakness in our preparation and enemy won't mind exploiting it.