Should discussion be allowed on questions raised by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza?

[Verve]

We know very well about Quran and Hadeeth. Much better than your champion from youtube

We who? YOU have not read the translation of Quran once in your life and you claim to know you Deen.

I guess it is too big a lie for to claim you've read the translation otherwise you sect lot have no issues blatantly lying.

Sects and those of sects have NO relation with our Prophet PBUH.

القرآن - سورۃ نمبر 6 الأنعام
آیت نمبر 159

أَعُوذُ بِاللَّهِ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ الرَّجِيمِ
بِسْمِ اللّٰهِ الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيْمِ

اِنَّ الَّذِيۡنَ فَرَّقُوۡا دِيۡنَهُمۡ وَكَانُوۡا شِيَـعًا لَّسۡتَ مِنۡهُمۡ فِىۡ شَىۡءٍ‌ ؕ اِنَّمَاۤ اَمۡرُهُمۡ اِلَى اللّٰهِ ثُمَّ يُنَـبِّـئُـهُمۡ بِمَا كَانُوۡا يَفۡعَلُوۡنَ ۞

لفظی ترجمہ:
اِنَّ: بیشک | الَّذِیْنَ: جنہوں نے | فَرَّقُوْا: فرقے بنایا | دِیْنَ: دین کو | ھُمْ: اپنے | وَ: اور | کَانُوْا: وہ ہوئے | شِیَعًا: گروہ | لَّسْتَ: آپ نہیں | مِنْ: سے | ھُمْ: ان | فِیْ: میں | شَیْءٍ: کچھ | اِ نَّمَاۤ: بیشک | اَمْرُ: کام | ھُمْ: انکا | اِلَی: طرف | اللّٰہِ: اللہ کے | ثُمَّ: پھر | یُنَبِّءُ: بتائے گا | ھُمْ: انکو | بِ: متعلق | مَا: جو | کَانُوْا: تھے وہ | یَفْعَلُوْنَ: وہ کرتے

ترجمہ:
{Saheeh International}
Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only
to Allah; then He will inform them about what they used to do.

{مولانا سید ابوالاعلی مودودی}
جن لوگوں نے اپنے دین کو ٹکڑے ٹکڑے کر دیا اور گروہ گروہ بن گئے یقیناً ان سے تمہارا کچھ واسطہ نہیں، ان کا معاملہ تو اللہ کے سپرد ہے، وہی ان کو بتائے گا کہ انہوں نے کیا کچھ کیا ہے

{مولانا فتح محمد جالندہری}
جن لوگوں نے اپنے دین میں (بہت سے) رستے نکالے اور کئی کئی فرقے ہو گئے ان سے تم کو کچھ کام نہیں ان کا کام خدا کے حوالے پھر جو کچھ وہ کرتے رہے ہیں وہ ان کو (سب) بتائے گا

{مفتی محمد تقی عثمانی}
(اے پیغمبر) یقین جانو کہ جن لوگوں نے اپنے دین میں تفرقہ پیدا کیا ہے، اور گروہوں میں بٹ گئے ہیں، ان سے تمہارا کوئی تعلق نہیں ہے۔ ان کا معاملہ تو اللہ کے حوالے ہے۔ پھر وہ انہیں جتلائے گا کہ کیا کچھ کرتے رہے ہیں۔

{مولانا محمد جوناگڑہی}
بےشک جن لوگوں نے اپنے دین کو جدا جدا کردیا اور گروه گروه بن گئے، آپ کا ان سے کوئی تعلق نہیں بس ان کا معاملہ اللہ تعالیٰ کے حوالے ہے۔ پھر ان کو ان کا کیا ہوا جتلادیں گے

{Syed Abul Ala Maududi}
Surely you have nothing to do with those who have made divisions in their religion and become factions. Their matter is with Allah and He will indeed tell them (in time) what they have been doing.

 

[SIPRA]

Thread is gaining heat.

 

[Trango Towers]

Thread is gaining heat.

Trying to not get too involved

 

[SIPRA]

Trying to not get too involved

Good. Open forums are not appropriate for religious discussion, in my opinion.

 

[Verve]

Thread is gaining heat.

Those denying and avoiding answers surely are generating a lot of heat ..

 

[El Sidd]

Religious discussion should not be allowed on internet and in public places. Those people who post religious videos on internet should be jailed

They thrive in prisons. It's not like they offer vocational training or education in there for rehab.

It's against prisoner rights for them to be subjected to forced lunacy.

 

[Trango Towers]

Good. Open forums are not appropriate for religious discussion, in my opinion.

Religion is very emotional topic.

People that have learnt and studied something all their life are suddenly asked to think for themselves .... its very hard.
Change is pretty impossible in our culture.

Remember in Pakistan toyota corolla is the best car in the world .... Still lol

 

[El Sidd]

Ya phir 150 littar mar k chor diya. Yeh punishment thek ha?

inke sath 3 6 mahine ka social media ban bhi hojaye to behtar rahega

 

[Hussain93]

All the followers of this kazzab mirzas way of defending their plumber ; ask why all these sect are created bla bla , We want muslim unity. there were no sects at the time of prophet peace be upon him..


They have just nice phrases while at the same time these so called engineeri "muslims"and their kazzab daily talk shit against shia ,sunni, deobandis, ahle hadith and brelvi. This makes him biggst fitna and fasadi person in pakistan .

Even i listened to him when i was trying to get a bit more knowledge about internal differences among muslims and first couple of days i was soo impressed but then i have a openmind and start listening to scholer who gave reply to his countless challenges and i saw how he is playing the newbies who have discovered islam yesterday .

 

[CriticalThought]

Don't rush .. but do start your post by answering the question below, please

Had you simply made the effort to watch the video posted by @Areesh, your question would have been already answered. Here is Areesh's post:

Should discussion be allowed on questions raised by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza?

Deibandi ahnaf may have their own mythical spiritual beings but the majority of indo pak ahnaf like brealvis do consider khizar's metaphysical role in shaping their spirituality. I've been listening fairy tales about this fellow since childhood. Blame your household for these lies then...

defence.pk

To summarize, the respected scholar has given a comprehensive and jaw-breaking response to the insinuation that there is no such thing as Kashf in Islam:

• Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza says that only good dreams are left from Nubuwwah and it is a defence of Khathm-e-Nubuwwat (End of Prophethood) that Kashf is no longer present. The respected scholar says that a group amonst Qadiyanis says that belief in return of Hazrat 'Isa 'Alaihis Salam also breaks the End of Prophethood, but Engineer believes in the return of Hazrat 'Isa 'Alaihis Salam.
  • And I add to this: Wahi is a part of Nubuwwat, Kashf is NOT a part of nubuwwat. Even a dream by a Prophet is a Wahi from Allah the Almighty. Kashf is strictly limited to Ummatis, and thus Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza has displayed a lack of basic common sense in differentiating Wahi which is part of Nubuwwat from Kashf which is not part of Nubuwwat. As always, I am no religious scholar, so if valid Ulema correct me, I will immediately follow their guidance, Insha Allah.
• Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza has fabricated the translation of the Hadith from Arabic. Whereas Engineer gives the translation as (comprehension of words) "If there was a Muhaddas/Mulhim in my Ummah, it would be Umar", the content comes in various Ahadith with slightly different words (comprehensions given) "If there is a Muhaddas/Mulhim in my Ummah, it IS Umar", or "Indeed Umar is amongst the Muhaddasin/Mulhamin of my Ummah". NOTE again that I have given the approximate comprehensions from my memory, please watch the video to verify.
  • Let us note at this point that this is an extremely serious transgression which nullifies any validity that Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza ever had. It means his followers are following someone who tells lies. It also means that Engineer has used prevarication and deceit to outright deny a part of Islam, and if you have been blindly following him you need to repent and contact valid religious scholars to ask about the state of your Iman, and your marriage.
• Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza has perform a blind taqleed (following) of someone who has wrongfully denied an authentic chain of narrators. The video contains the full details. Of note, he gives a reference to Ibn-e-Kathir's Al Bidaya Wa An Nihaya as well, which I have posted above as well.

Now, this raises serious questions about the claim of being "scholarly and academic" (ilmi kitabi) by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza and his followers. Because at 5:43 of his Kashf video:

he speaks the translation "Meri ummat main agar koi Muhaddas hota tu Umar hota", and at the same time he shows this screen shot:

And then he refutes the words that he has shown on screen as his own reference. This is an own goal by Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza, where he has inadvertently shared the true translation that he was trying to hide by speaking fabrications. And it is an absolute hoot that all the 'Ilmi Kitabi followers of Engineer watched this and did not note this mistake!

OK, forget looking at the translation on the screen. Do these 'Ilmi Kitabi people do any cross checks of the Arabic they see on the screen? Let's use translate.google.com to do a quick check of the arabic. We do this with the understanding that Google Translate is NOT perfect AT ALL, but we want to get a sense of the grammar:

We can see the first part is translated completely wrong, but the grammar of the second part is cohesive and goes against Engineer. Now, I am really interested to know if followers of Engineer actually practice their 'Ilmi Kitabi slogan by cross checking the Arabic that Engineer shows them?

Then, Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza brings the Hadith wherein Hazrat Umar May Allah Be Pleased with him says (comprehension) "In the times of Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, we used to decided based on people's hearts, but now we will only accept actions". He presents this as a refutation of Kashf. This shows Engineer's complete lack of knowledge regarding the beliefs and practices of Ahl-as-Sunnah Wa Al Jama'ah, because no Hadd or Ta'azir can be applied upon anyone based on mere Kashf. The entire system of Islamic Justice is based upon eye witnesses and material evidences. Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza needs to bring actual jurisprudence written in books where a Mufti or Faqih has opined about punishing someone based on Kashf. This means, he either has a comprehension problem, or he is grasping on straws to defend a weak pont.

Then, Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza brings an Aayah of the Holy Quran with comprehension "Allah will not Reveal Ghaib on you, and He elevates His Rusul as He Pleases (that is, reveals Ghaib on them as He likes)". Engineer gives this as evidence that there can be no Kashf, and once again shows he is rank amateur in religious matters. Let us go to quran.com, bring up 3:179 and look at the Tafaseer. I checked Ma'arif ul Quran, Ibn-e-Kathir, and the arabic tafaseer of Tabari and Qurtubi. In all of them, the meaning of "Nor would Allah ˹directly˺ reveal to you the unseen" is that the hypocrisy (Munafiqat) of someone will not be revealed to ordinary Muslims, except through trials and tribulations in which the Munafiq will fail. And amongst the Ahl-as-Sunnah wa Al-Jama'ah, no one can be declared a Munafiq (hypocrite) after the passing away of Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. And thus both Engineer and his followers show that they don't even perform the basic intellectual research of looking up meanings of Quranic Verses in well known Tafaseer.

This is an eye opener for everyone on this thread who has been harping on about 'reading the simple translation of Holy Quran'. It shows clearly that a mere superficial reading of Holy Quran will lead you astray from the right path, and you will end up adopting meanings which have NOT been intended originally by Allah the Almighty.

I end with this: the technical term Zindeeq applies to someone who interprets the Holy Quran and Ahadith in a manner that goes against the 1400 years consensus of the majority of Ahl-as-Sunnah wa Al-Jama'ah. @Verve @Tariq Habib Afridi can you please bring this post to the attention of Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza, and ask him to perform Rujoo' on the matter of Kashf, so his beliefs are in line with Ahl As Sunnah Wa Al-Jama'ah? Can you please spread this message amongst his followers in the hope that someone of them will get guidance and start contacting actual, valid religious scholars instead of Mr. Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza? Jazakumullahu Khaira.

Insha Allah, in later posts, I will discuss other problems in the original video shared by @Verve

 

[Verve]

Had you simply made the effort to watch the video posted by @Areesh, your question would have been already answered. Here is Areesh's post:

Should discussion be allowed on questions raised by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza?

Deibandi ahnaf may have their own mythical spiritual beings but the majority of indo pak ahnaf like brealvis do consider khizar's metaphysical role in shaping their spirituality. I've been listening fairy tales about this fellow since childhood. Blame your household for these lies then...

defence.pk

To summarize, the respected scholar has given a comprehensive and jaw-breaking response to the insinuation that there is no such thing as Kashf in Islam:

• Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza says that only good dreams are left from Nubuwwah and it is a defence of Khathm-e-Nubuwwat (End of Prophethood) that Kashf is no longer present. The respected scholar says that a group amonst Qadiyanis says that belief in return of Hazrat 'Isa 'Alaihis Salam also breaks the End of Prophethood, but Engineer believes in the return of Hazrat 'Isa 'Alaihis Salam.
  • And I add to this: Wahi is a part of Nubuwwat, Kashf is NOT a part of nubuwwat. Even a dream by a Prophet is a Wahi from Allah the Almighty. Kashf is strictly limited to Ummatis, and thus Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza has displayed a lack of basic common sense in differentiating Wahi which is part of Nubuwwat from Kashf which is not part of Nubuwwat. As always, I am no religious scholar, so if valid Ulema correct me, I will immediately follow their guidance, Insha Allah.
• Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza has fabricated the translation of the Hadith from Arabic. Whereas Engineer gives the translation as (comprehension of words) "If there was a Muhaddas/Mulhim in my Ummah, it would be Umar", the content comes in various Ahadith with slightly different words (comprehensions given) "If there is a Muhaddas/Mulhim in my Ummah, it IS Umar", or "Indeed Umar is amongst the Muhaddasin/Mulhamin of my Ummah". NOTE again that I have given the approximate comprehensions from my memory, please watch the video to verify.
  • Let us note at this point that this is an extremely serious transgression which nullifies any validity that Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza ever had. It means his followers are following someone who tells lies. It also means that Engineer has used prevarication and deceit to outright deny a part of Islam, and if you have been blindly following him you need to repent and contact valid religious scholars to ask about the state of your Iman, and your marriage.
• Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza has perform a blind taqleed (following) of someone who has wrongfully denied an authentic chain of narrators. The video contains the full details. Of note, he gives a reference to Ibn-e-Kathir's Al Bidaya Wa An Nihaya as well, which I have posted above as well.

Now, this raises serious questions about the claim of being "scholarly and academic" (ilmi kitabi) by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza and his followers. Because at 5:43 of his Kashf video:

he speaks the translation "Meri ummat main agar koi Muhaddas hota tu Umar hota", and at the same time he shows this screen shot:

View attachment 804432


And then he refutes the words that he has shown on screen as his own reference. This is an own goal by Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza, where he has inadvertently shared the true translation that he was trying to hide by speaking fabrications. And it is an absolute hoot that all the 'Ilmi Kitabi followers of Engineer watched this and did not note this mistake!

OK, forget looking at the translation on the screen. Do these 'Ilmi Kitabi people do any cross checks of the Arabic they see on the screen? Let's use translate.google.com to do a quick check of the arabic. We do this with the understanding that Google Translate is NOT perfect AT ALL, but we want to get a sense of the grammar:

View attachment 804435

We can see the first part is translated completely wrong, but the grammar of the second part is cohesive and goes against Engineer. Now, I am really interested to know if followers of Engineer actually practice their 'Ilmi Kitabi slogan by cross checking the Arabic that Engineer shows them?

Then, Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza brings the Hadith wherein Hazrat Umar May Allah Be Pleased with him says (comprehension) "In the times of Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, we used to decided based on people's hearts, but now we will only accept actions". He presents this as a refutation of Kashf. This shows Engineer's complete lack of knowledge regarding the beliefs and practices of Ahl-as-Sunnah Wa Al Jama'ah, because no Hadd or Ta'azir can be applied upon anyone based on mere Kashf. The entire system of Islamic Justice is based upon eye witnesses and material evidences. Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza needs to bring actual jurisprudence written in books where a Mufti or Faqih has opined about punishing someone based on Kashf. This means, he either has a comprehension problem, or he is grasping on straws to defend a weak pont.

Then, Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza brings an Aayah of the Holy Quran with comprehension "Allah will not Reveal Ghaib on you, and He elevates His Rusul as He Pleases (that is, reveals Ghaib on them as He likes)". Engineer gives this as evidence that there can be no Kashf, and once again shows he is rank amateur in religious matters. Let us go to quran.com, bring up 3:179 and look at the Tafaseer. I checked Ma'arif ul Quran, Ibn-e-Kathir, and the arabic tafaseer of Tabari and Qurtubi. In all of them, the meaning of "Nor would Allah ˹directly˺ reveal to you the unseen" is that the hypocrisy (Munafiqat) of someone will not be revealed to ordinary Muslims, except through trials and tribulations in which the Munafiq will fail. And amongst the Ahl-as-Sunnah wa Al-Jama'ah, no one can be declared a Munafiq (hypocrite) after the passing away of Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. And thus both Engineer and his followers show that they don't even perform the basic intellectual research of looking up meanings of Quranic Verses in well known Tafaseer.

This is an eye opener for everyone on this thread who has been harping on about 'reading the simple translation of Holy Quran'. It shows clearly that a mere superficial reading of Holy Quran will lead you astray from the right path, and you will end up adopting meanings which have NOT been intended originally by Allah the Almighty.

I end with this: the technical term Zindeeq applies to someone who interprets the Holy Quran and Ahadith in a manner that goes against the 1400 years consensus of the majority of Ahl-as-Sunnah wa Al-Jama'ah. @Verve @Tariq Habib Afridi can you please bring this post to the attention of Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza, and ask him to perform Rujoo' on the matter of Kashf, so his beliefs are in line with Ahl As Sunnah Wa Al-Jama'ah? Can you please spread this message amongst his followers in the hope that someone of them will get guidance and start contacting actual, valid religious scholars instead of Mr. Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza? Jazakumullahu Khaira.

Insha Allah, in later posts, I will discuss other problems in the original video shared by @Verve

Ok, let's take a proper look at the Hadith. IF and IF .. If Prophet PBUH really confirmed Umar RA to be that person, why did he say 'if' in both sentences?

If is used in such sentences when one doesn't know for sure and Prophet PBUH only had knowledge of what was revealed to him by Allah. But you lot claim that Prophet had complete knowledge of everything at all times whereas it is clear from many Hadith that he did not. Example: He did not know of the poison in the meat prepared by the Jew woman until the piece of meat was on his tongue (& it spoke) and many Sahaba who ate that meat were killed by the poison. There are many more examples.

Even if Umar RA was that person, he would be the ONLY ONE in the whole Ummat! Whereas you lot claim others to be too!!! Where and when was a provision made for any other(s), except Umar RA, by the Prophet PBUH - produce a Hadith?


صحیح بخاری
کتاب: انبیاء علیہم السلام کا بیان
باب: باب: ابوحفص عمر بن خطاب قرشی عدوی رضی اللہ عنہ کی فضیلت کا بیان۔
حدیث نمبر: 3689

حدیث نمبر: 3689
حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ قَزَعَةَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ سَعْدٍ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ أَبِيهِ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏قَالَ:‏‏‏‏ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ:‏‏‏‏ لَقَدْ كَانَ فِيمَا قَبْلَكُمْ مِنَ الْأُمَمِ مُحَدَّثُونَ فَإِنْ يَكُ فِي أُمَّتِي أَحَدٌ فَإِنَّهُ عُمَرُ. زَادَزَكَرِيَّاءُ بْنُ أَبِي زَائِدَةَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ سَعْدٍ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ،‏‏‏‏ قَالَ:‏‏‏‏ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ:‏‏‏‏ لَقَدْ كَانَ فِيمَنْ كَانَ قَبْلَكُمْ مِنْ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ رِجَالٌ يُكَلَّمُونَ مِنْ غَيْرِ أَنْ يَكُونُوا أَنْبِيَاءَ فَإِنْ يَكُنْ مِنْ أُمَّتِي مِنْهُمْ أَحَدٌ فَعُمَرُ.

ترجمہ:
ہم سے یحییٰ بن قزعہ نے بیان کیا، کہا ہم سے ابراہیم بن سعد نے بیان کیا، ان سے ان کے والد نے، ان سے ابوسلمہ نے اور ان سے ابوہریرہ ؓ نے بیان کیا کہ رسول اللہ ﷺ نے فرمایا کہ تم سے پہلی امتوں میں محدث ہوا کرتے تھے، اور اگر میری امت میں کوئی ایسا شخص ہے تو وہ عمر ہیں۔ زکریا بن زائدہ نے اپنی روایت میں سعد سے یہ بڑھایا ہے کہ ان سے ابوسلمہ نے بیان کیا اور ان سے ابوہریرہ ؓ نے کہ نبی کریم ﷺ نے فرمایا کہ تم سے پہلے بنی اسرائیل کی امتوں میں کچھ لوگ ایسے ہوا کرتے تھے کہ نبی نہیں ہوتے تھے اور اس کے باوجود فرشتے ان سے کلام کیا کرتے تھے اور اگر میری امت میں کوئی ایسا شخص ہوسکتا ہے تو وہ عمر ہیں۔ ابن عباس ؓ نے پڑھا من نبي ولا محدث۔

Translation:
Narrated Abu Hurairah (RA):
Allahs Apostle ﷺ said, "Among the nations before you there used to be people who were inspired (though they were not prophets). And if there is any of such a persons amongst my followers, it is Umar."
Narrated Abu Hurairah (RA): The Prophet ﷺ said, "Among the nation of Bani Israel who lived before you, there were men who used to be inspired with guidance though they were not prophets, and if there is any of such persons amongst my followers, it is Umar."

 

[M. Sarmad]

“ All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

12 pages of discussion on a banned topic?? Apparently, the PDF management allows Deoband/Salafist propaganda threads and hate campaigns only . The Rest, i.e, the 'less-equal" ones, do not have this "privilege"

As for this engineer, almost all Mullahs and their followers (regardless of what sect they are) hate him. He may be quite off the mark at times, but one has to admit that he is a rational guy who talks sense (mostly)

 

[Verve]

@CriticalThought ... no one is saying to follow Engineer blindly. Do you own study and this is what he says as well hence he gives Hadith numbers. Whereas all other ulema intentionally do not because they quote half hadiths to fit the sect narrative therefore twisting the context.

I'm not sure I agree with him on 3 talaqs together being counted as 3. As per Sahih Hadith, 3 together were counted as one by Prophet PBUH, Abu Bakar RA and first 2 or 3 years of Umar RA. Then Umar RA changed the ruling for 3 together to be counted as 3 due to too many divorces. However there is another Sahih Hadith where Prophet says that Sunnah of my Khulfa-e-Rashideen is my sunnah.

 

[CriticalThought]

Ok, let's take a proper look at the Hadith. IF and IF .. If Prophet PBUH really confirmed Umar RA to be that person, why did he say 'if' in both sentences?

If is used in such sentences when one doesn't know for sure and Prophet PBUH only had knowledge of what was revealed to him by Allah. But you lot claim that Prophet had complete knowledge of everything at all times whereas it is clear from many Hadith that he did not. Example: He did not know of the poison in the meat prepared by the Jew woman until the piece of meat was on his tongue (& it spoke) and many Sahaba who ate that meat were killed by the poison. There are many more examples.

Even if Umar RA was that person, he would be the ONLY ONE in the whole Ummat! Whereas you lot claim others to be too!!! Where and when was a provision made for any other(s), except Umar RA, by the Prophet PBUH - produce a Hadith?


صحیح بخاری
کتاب: انبیاء علیہم السلام کا بیان
باب: باب: ابوحفص عمر بن خطاب قرشی عدوی رضی اللہ عنہ کی فضیلت کا بیان۔
حدیث نمبر: 3689

حدیث نمبر: 3689
حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ قَزَعَةَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ سَعْدٍ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ أَبِيهِ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏قَالَ:‏‏‏‏ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ:‏‏‏‏ لَقَدْ كَانَ فِيمَا قَبْلَكُمْ مِنَ الْأُمَمِ مُحَدَّثُونَ فَإِنْ يَكُ فِي أُمَّتِي أَحَدٌ فَإِنَّهُ عُمَرُ. زَادَزَكَرِيَّاءُ بْنُ أَبِي زَائِدَةَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ سَعْدٍ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ،‏‏‏‏ قَالَ:‏‏‏‏ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ:‏‏‏‏ لَقَدْ كَانَ فِيمَنْ كَانَ قَبْلَكُمْ مِنْ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ رِجَالٌ يُكَلَّمُونَ مِنْ غَيْرِ أَنْ يَكُونُوا أَنْبِيَاءَ فَإِنْ يَكُنْ مِنْ أُمَّتِي مِنْهُمْ أَحَدٌ فَعُمَرُ.

ترجمہ:
ہم سے یحییٰ بن قزعہ نے بیان کیا، کہا ہم سے ابراہیم بن سعد نے بیان کیا، ان سے ان کے والد نے، ان سے ابوسلمہ نے اور ان سے ابوہریرہ ؓ نے بیان کیا کہ رسول اللہ ﷺ نے فرمایا کہ تم سے پہلی امتوں میں محدث ہوا کرتے تھے، اور اگر میری امت میں کوئی ایسا شخص ہے تو وہ عمر ہیں۔ زکریا بن زائدہ نے اپنی روایت میں سعد سے یہ بڑھایا ہے کہ ان سے ابوسلمہ نے بیان کیا اور ان سے ابوہریرہ ؓ نے کہ نبی کریم ﷺ نے فرمایا کہ تم سے پہلے بنی اسرائیل کی امتوں میں کچھ لوگ ایسے ہوا کرتے تھے کہ نبی نہیں ہوتے تھے اور اس کے باوجود فرشتے ان سے کلام کیا کرتے تھے اور اگر میری امت میں کوئی ایسا شخص ہوسکتا ہے تو وہ عمر ہیں۔ ابن عباس ؓ نے پڑھا من نبي ولا محدث۔

Translation:
Narrated Abu Hurairah (RA):
Allahs Apostle ﷺ said, "Among the nations before you there used to be people who were inspired (though they were not prophets). And if there is any of such a persons amongst my followers, it is Umar."
Narrated Abu Hurairah (RA): The Prophet ﷺ said, "Among the nation of Bani Israel who lived before you, there were men who used to be inspired with guidance though they were not prophets, and if there is any of such persons amongst my followers, it is Umar."

Janab, you have not watched the video at all. Because the respected scholar has made it clear that the 'if' here is actually 'Verily'. Go watch it again. He has also presented a Hadith in which the words mean Umar (May Allah Be Pleased with him) is one of them.

 

[Verve]

Janab, you have not watched the video at all. Because the respected scholar has made it clear that the 'if' here is actually 'Verily'. Go watch it again. He has also presented a Hadith in which the words mean Umar (May Allah Be Pleased with him) is one of them.

Are you an intentional deaf! He read the translation as per the jpeg straight after his quoted words below whilst jpeg was on the screen:

he speaks the translation "Meri ummat main agar koi Muhaddas hota tu Umar hota", and at the same time he shows this screen shot:

Nice attempt at twisting. This is what you and your ulema do - cut clips and then say 'oh look at what he is saying' etc etc. You cut one sentence in an attempt to prove a point whereas he spoke the exact line of different translation of Hadith (from the jpeg on display) in the very next sentence you conveniently omitted to quote! He is saying that the variation in translation (shown in jpeg) gives rise to you lot claiming Umar RA to have. Either way, I believe my argument in an earlier post is stronger on the translation in jpeg. You didn't address any of it though - again, typical - no answer so bypassed eh!

Are you denying Sahih Bukhari 2641 narrated by Umar RA???

Kindly answer below:

Even if Umar RA was that person, he would be the ONLY ONE in the whole Ummat! Whereas you lot claim others to be too!!! Where and when was a provision made for any other(s), except Umar RA, by the Prophet PBUH - produce a Hadith?