Shooting Down the First Soviet Su-25

[MastanKhan]

The new age has certainly taught us to differentiate between the talker and the implementer. While stressing over miseries and their solutions, their words bounce around the freshly painted walls of their house.

Hi,

We had wooden floors in the house and in america---the walls are of sheet rock and wood frame---so the sound does not bounce around but rather the words are heard very clearly.

I guess maybe in pakistan I remember---with brick wall and chips flooring---as there is resonance of sound---the words bounce of---I don't blame you for that. But that is okay---some people make chicken soup out of the chicken---some look for the chicken sh-it and use it as a fertilzer.

It is al good---each to his own abilities.

 

[forcetrip]

Maybe you are right .. We should have let the inferior Su's roam around in our airspace for hours at a time. I guess now we can go back to the pilot and move your anger of the political ramifications for another thread.

 

[forcetrip]

Hi,

We had wooden floors in the house and in america---the walls are of sheet rock and wood frame---so the sound does not bounce around but rather the words are heard very clearly.

I guess maybe in pakistan I remember---with brick wall and chips flooring---as there is resonance of sound---the words bounce of---I don't blame you for that. But that is okay---some people make chicken soup out of the chicken---some look for the chicken sh-it and use it as a fertilzer.

It is al good---each to his own abilities.

While you were posting in this forum, I gave you the benefit of the doubt about your house. But as you said each his own. Good luck with your fertilizer.

 

[su-47]

Feeling the moments of glory after reading your post. Pakistan Armed Forces were brave enough to shoot an enemy's aircraft especially when they were facing a super power. Sounds wonderful--but hey--Aren't we missing something? Didn't the glorious PAF know that they had the U.S. at the back? Who gave those F16s to us? We were sure that the U.S. would have helped us in any scenario since they wanted to get rid of Soviets just like Pakistan. Now a question for you..Were we brave enough OR we had another super power at our back?
Pilot did a great job but please limit the glory to the pilot.

Buddy, i am not over-glorifying anyone. I didnt even praise the pilot. Rather i commented on the gutsy decision of the paksitani military establisment to engage a hostile, regardless of who it belonged to.

I am not here to suck up to anyone and score brownie points. I really admired the way the Pakistani military stood up to a superpower back then. even when its an enemy, i give respect where respect is due.

Sure Pak had USA behind them, but what guarantee was there taht USA would have defended Pak against the USSR? I mean, i am not talking about USSR nuking Pak or anything, but if they decided to take an active role in directly damaging Pakistan (imagine a soviet air raid on Mujahideen training centres), would USA have actually stepped up to the plate and confronted the soviets? Maybe they would have, but maybe they wouldn't have.

Look at what happened in Georgia. The Georgians expected US assistance against Russia. And yet when the tanks came rolling across, US didnt actively support Georgia. Similar thing could have happened in Pak back in the 80s, when the military power difference between USA and USSR was much lesser than it is now between Russia and USA. Yet PAF took the risk and defended their sovereignty. Thats admirable.

But as you said yourself, that courage seems to have diminished these days, at least from parts of the top brass. Here, I am not commenting on the soldiers who actually fight, but on the politicians. They should not have let US drones violate Pak sovereignity.

 

[SSGame]

Another major achievement of the PAF was a pilot shooting down 5 Indian aircrafts in less than a minute!

 

[sergente rehan]

I know that the thread headlines talk about first Su-25 shot down by PAF but why people only focus on Su-25, during Afghan war PAF shot down also diffrent other soviet fighter-bomber, transporter planes etc. Su-25 was just the begining....And when it come to be proud of PAF achievements then i must say "yes the Pakistani Nation is proud of PAF as of the other 2 Armed forces", nothing will change this! Doesn't matter if it was 1965, or against Israel or against soviet or any other enemy.

 

[rockstarIN]

Another major achievement of the PAF was a pilot shooting down 5 Indian aircrafts in less than a minute!

Come on., Its not one minute, 23 seconds....!!
World hardly believed this account...!

Read "Flight of the Falcon - Demolishing myths of Indo-Pak wars 1965 & 1971" by Air Commodore S Sajad Haider, there he once and for all debunks the 5 aircraft in 23 seconds story of Alam.

 

[SSGame]

Even though the time might not be exact the Indians also claimed that 4 planes were shot down so atleast the number of planes could be for or 5. Im sorry if I annoyed you because im new here and dont want any trouble arguing.

 

[SSGame]

Even though the time might not be exact the Indians also claimed that 4 planes were shot down so atleast the number of planes could be for or 5. Im sorry if I annoyed you because im new here and dont want any trouble arguing.

 

[x_man]

Your analysis about the Soviets is wrong.

Soviets never had dog fights. All those were strayed aircraft which were shot down by PAF.

Strayed aircrafts don’t come with bombs, missiles, in battle formations or engage their opponent into air combat.

If you assume that PAF shot down any aircraft that entered from West, then my friend you need to reconsider your position. PAF Museum at Karachi is full of Afghani AF aircrafts that were either strayed or ran away from there. PAF had very strict rules of engagement to NOT to shoot any aircraft that either harmless or doesn’t show hostility.

Our pilots were not trigger happy or desperate to shoot down anything that enters her airspace. All those aircrafts were intercepted, escorted and now remain in PAF custody.

In PAF Museum you can find Afghani Mig-21s, AN-26 and AN-12. Also not in museum, there are few other planes like Su-22 and Mi-24.

MiG-21MF and Su-22M-4K seen at the Peshawar AB, in October 1989, after both planes were flown there by defecting Afghani pilots

 

[x_man]

Anyone who thinks that this is an innocent plane needs to visit their optician. It may be a dud in air-air combat but its one hell of a killing machine when it comes to shoot things at ground.

I am quite surprised to read comments from few internet warriors whose flying experience perhaps is not beyond Microsoft Flight Simulator .But they are commenting with such a zeal on the actual combat situations faced by real pilots .

SU-25 came to do some serious damage but itself became the prey. Squadron Leader Athar Bukhari was all by himself at night, placed himself very well and got a perfect kill. All that matters is that remained very calm and achieved what was expected out of him: A very well deserving professional kill.

While he was alone, he could have faced anything, may be a formation of Mig-23s or Su-22s. Who knows ? Did he have a choice to choose number or type opponents? Did he have the option to chose enemy skill level or the time of combat ? Perhaps these are the differences between video games and the real world.

Squadron Ldr Athar Bokhari

In a rare 9 squadron group pic below, 4 pilots achieved kills during Afghan war. All except Yousaf Chaudhry.

Hameed Qadri (Late), M.Razzaq (late), Yousaf Chaudhry, Badar, Athar Bukhari

 

[Beskar]

Excellent post, X_man! Good to see you back in action.

Now lets see who comes forward from the 'Armchair Brigade' to counter your post. That'd be fun!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

SU-25 is a CAS a/c and not a fighter-bomber but what the hell - a KILL is a KILL is a KILL.

at the same rate, it don't matter whether it's an inch or a mile. Winning is winning.

 

[x_man]

Excellent post, X_man! Good to see you back in action.

Now lets see who comes forward from the 'Armchair Brigade' to counter your post. That'd be fun!

Thanks Bezerk. I have some time off over weekend before the flying picks again.

Armchair Brigade !! Thats a funny name they will come back, dont worry. They never give up. Take care

 

[fatman17]

at the same rate, it don't matter whether it's an inch or a mile. Winning is winning.

what did Vince Lombardi say - "winning is not everything, its the only thing"