Shooting Down the First Soviet Su-25

[Tameem]

Sir,

Absolutely---no doubt about that---that was a moment to cherish and a moment of pride---.

But in hindsight---think about it----was it worth it---what did pakistan gain out of it---syria has better relationship with india---egypt has better relations with india---and neither gave a **** about us---and neither took any lesson out of it to take it any further than that.

That victory and our attitude brought israel closer to india---israel is going to be the biggest weapons technology supplier to india---plus manpower assistance would be substantial---.

So---now you tell---was that moment of glory worth the israeli animosity!!!

Dear Mastan, I don’t know who you really are as I too not a military person either and new to PDF as well, but your comments on this subject are too oblivious to any kind of common sense prevails. I often found your comments hopeless and you seems to me like “Poras kay Hathi” in your mental attitude towards Pakistan and its struggles.

Our entry in Arab-Israeli wars is voluntarily no one pressurizes us and besides both Egypt and Syria in those days are in opposite camps (communist block) compares to Pakistan which is clearly on the side of USA. However, we switch only to get a chance to confront Israel head-on didn’t we?, The sole purpose of PAF in these Wars is to help our Muslim Brothers under the pretext of Pan Islamism on the basis of which our nation created and stands for even today and we have succeeded in our objective holeheartedly, didn’t we? We actually gain a lot of experience and know how while operating different kinds of warplanes which we couldn’t get if we stays at home and that experience still counts in every PAF achievements afterwards.

On the other hand, the sole purpose of Egypt and Syria to wage war with Israel is to gain lost Arab Pride on the pretext of Pan Arabism, on which they utterly fails didn’t they? This clearly shows our cause is great than theirs prejudice.

Sure, Egypt and Syria are better relations with India as they all are allied with USSR and sure they didn’t give a **** to us even now if by chance we want to help them in another forthcoming war however i'm sure we will act with the same courage and resolve if another wars borke out as one have to strife and act on what he/she believes in life not solely on the basis of what he/she will gain or lost.

Lastly, our animosity towards Israel and India brings us to the status to becomes the only Atomic Power of Muslim World and even today we are manufacturing our own Warplanes, Missiles, Tanks and lots of other things which other Muslim countries only dreamed for, are these a less achievements/gains?

I am 100% sure if we stay behinds and didn’t act on our instincts as we did; we are surely like the hapless lot of Arabs.

 

[MastanKhan]

Tameem,

How are you doing? Thanks for you extended reply---I appreciate that you took the time---and I am grateful for that.

My comments don't make sense to you because you are thinking on the same lines as a typical pakistani is programmed to think about muslim brotherhood and when something else comes in front of your eyes----you react violently---because it does not meet your perveived perception of the middle east conflict and the your own judgemental criteria.

Children act and react voluntarily---men think about the consequences---our entry into the middle eastern affairs was childish and immature---we had no clue of the consequences and the aftermath.

We went to middle east to show---that our manhood was bigger and stronger than the arab manhood. We had a foolish perception that once the arabs found that out----they would come out and accept us as their saviours and warriors.

The two hundred years of british slavery had left us clueless about nationalism---and we developed the habbit of jumping into everyone's affairs feet first.

What did we gain out of our representation in syria and egypt and jordan---an animosity that we didnot need---.

Open your mind and open your eyes---look at the issue out of context of the regular islamic brotherhood brainwashing that the pakistanis get---ask youself---did we need any more enemies other than the ones we already have

Your comment

" Sure, Egypt and Syria are better relations with India as they all are allied with USSR and sure they didn’t give a **** to us even now if by chance we want to help them in another forthcoming war however i'm sure we will act with the same courage and resolve if another wars borke out as one have to strife and act on what he/she believes in life not solely on the basis of what he/she will gain or lost".


To people who say that---I tell them---please get a life---and do something cosntrucitve in your own home----fix something in your house---why waste time on thise who care less for what happens to them. They have their own game plans and agendas that neither we are privy to nor we have the ability to understand.

It is like the tail chasing the dog---.

Other than that----thanks again for your comments---I very much appreciate exchanging ideas with you---please keep it up. Thankyou.

 

[forcetrip]

We never made any future plans then.. we don't make them now .. Nothing has changed in the land of the emotional people ..

But the consequences are not the discussion of the topic.. Bringing in the political drama is not giving the pilots their due salute. They did their jobs then .. and they continue to do their jobs now.

 

[MastanKhan]

We never made any future plans then.. we don't make them now .. Nothing has changed in the land of the emotional people ..

But the consequences are not the discussion of the topic.. Bringing in the political drama is not giving the pilots their due salute. They did their jobs then .. and they continue to do their jobs now.

Hi,

Consequences are the part and parcel of every issue.

Fighter jocks don't live in ether all the time----they need to come down to the ground as well---and the nations who send them out to do the biddings of theothers---they ultimately pay the price as well.

 

[Joe Shearer]

We never made any future plans then.. we don't make them now .. Nothing has changed in the land of the emotional people ..

But the consequences are not the discussion of the topic.. Bringing in the political drama is not giving the pilots their due salute. They did their jobs then .. and they continue to do their jobs now.

Dear Sir,

You made an important point and I am not sure that you intended to make that point. Let me explain.

Soldiers, sailors and airmen have to fight to defend their country. In war, in conditions of hostility, there is no room for sentiment. One does one's duty. That is supreme; anything short of that is a military offence.

The pilot was completely justified in doing what he did. Let none of us be in any doubt about that. But that is all there is to that.

I hope that this is what you set out to say. If so, everybody must agree with you. There is no need for anything more.

As Mastan Khan has pointed out, it was an F16 against a SU 25. Perhaps some among us are thinking of other Sukhois. The fact is that SU 7s and their variations, SU 17s, SU 20s and SU 22s, are quite different in configuration and role from the SU 25, or either group from the SU 27s and their variants, the SU 30 MKI, the SU 33 and so on. The SU 25, in brief, is a sturmovik, a Close Air Support aircraft, not a fighter-bomber like the other Sukhois, pretty much the Soviet equivalent of the A10, a tree-top hopping infantry support craft. Knocking down an A10 from BVR range shows good professional discipline and a well-oiled and efficient machinery at work, not extraordinary heroism nor outstanding airmanship.

Let us salute the pilot for an unpleasant job professionally executed, and leave it at that.

Sincerely,

 

[forcetrip]

Hi,

Consequences are the part and parcel of every issue.

Fighter jocks don't live in ether all the time----they need to come down to the ground as well---and the nations who send them out to do the biddings of theothers---they ultimately pay the price as well.

What consequences are you talking about in what the pilot was doing? Following orders? Thats just absurd. From Rome to this day no soldier has been disrespected for performing his duty. You are definately the first man to have ever done that. If the pilot was straffing villages I would understand that he would be responsible for his actions. What pray tell should he have done in this instance? Not make the kill because it was too easy? I am kind of surprised at your insane comment about a fighter pilot going home and regretting what he did for his country, and justifying your comment about paying the price sounds something what the Taliban say when they behead our soldiers.

 

[forcetrip]

The new age has certainly taught us to differentiate between the talker and the implementer. While stressing over miseries and their solutions, their words bounce around the freshly painted walls of their house.

 

[dbc]

A text book AIM-9P/L kill, I don't see why the pilot should experience any remorse for obeying orders and shooting down an intruder.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Mastan, the kill itself might have been a turkey shot, but the fact that the F-16 responded fast enough to catch the adversary inside Pak territory and shoot it down has to be commended.

More than the actual kill, what is to be admired is the political will shown by the Pak armed forces. The USSR was a superpower. Many nations would have been to scared to retaliate against them, and would have just let the Soviet jets continue the violation of their air space. But PAF actually had the balls to take them on and uphold their sovereignty. Thats has its own pride and dignity.

Feeling the moments of glory after reading your post. Pakistan Armed Forces were brave enough to shoot an enemy's aircraft especially when they were facing a super power. Sounds wonderful--but hey--Aren't we missing something? Didn't the glorious PAF know that they had the U.S. at the back? Who gave those F16s to us? We were sure that the U.S. would have helped us in any scenario since they wanted to get rid of Soviets just like Pakistan. Now a question for you..Were we brave enough OR we had another super power at our back?
Pilot did a great job but please limit the glory to the pilot.

 

[Luftwaffe]

saad445566..this has nothing to do with super power backing you up, remember russia threaten Pakistan when those u-2s were stationed in Peshawar, now guess what Pakistan did.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

saad445566..this has nothing to do with super power backing you up, remember russia threaten Pakistan when those u-2s were stationed in Peshawar, now guess what Pakistan did.

Why did Pakistan give the bases to Americans? Musharaf mentioned somewhere that the U.S. threatened Pakistan after 9/11--Where was the courage and glory you talk about at that time to resist any illegal move by the U.S.? Where was the courage when gov and army lied to the people of Pakistan about the location and permission of drone attacks? Where was the courage when Nato crossed our borders, right over the heads of Pakistan Army? Its not about courage rather its about the--

 

[Patriot]

Well in those times there was something called multi polar world where a major super power was backing us against another super power where as in 9/11 we were threatened by world's biggest only super power which had sympathy of whole world +- few Muslim Banana Republics.Heck Even China was not giving us diplomatic support so we did the right thing by allying with US.The afghan Taliban could not care less about Pakistan so was it worth it to sacrifice the whole Pakistan for Afghan Taliban?I don't think so.Let's not forget that our not so friendly neighbor was also itching to give support to US.

 

[Luftwaffe]

saad, I think you did not understand my post. What I meant was Pakistan shot down a number of russian air force planes jumping up and down going against super power of that time, until the u-2 threat all that glorious courage of Pakistan to stand up against USSR, with US at her back went down and US had to packup their back and take their toys out of Pakistan with Pakistan felt the real threat from soviets.

 

[MastanKhan]

saad, I think you did not understand my post. What I meant was Pakistan shot down a number of russian air force planes jumping up and down going against super power of that time, until the u-2 threat all that glorious courage of Pakistan to stand up against USSR, with US at her back went down and US had to packup their back and take their toys out of Pakistan with Pakistan felt the real threat from soviets.

Hi,

Russia threatened to nuc the base from where the U 2 had taken off---pak told the americans to pack and leave---and they did.

Invading mainland russian air space and flying from pak air base was a different issue than taking down russian planes inside pakistan---.

The early 60's was a different time for russia---at that time the russians were extremely wary and volatile---they were at their prime---by the time the afghan war came, they had totally worn themselves down---their economy was in shamble---their industry was grinding down---.


One of my relatives a special forces operator---abducted and possibly tortured killed by the russians in poland when he was stationed at the pak embassy in 84---85( family was not aloowed to open the coffin )---talked of pak special forces missions into mainland russia during the afghan war---. During the afghan war---the pak millitary was daring the russians---if pak millitary had the backing of the americans---they would have gone right into mainland russia if america supported the actions.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Hi,

Russia threatened to nuc the base from where the U 2 had taken off---pak told the americans to pack and leave---and they did.

Invading mainland russian air space and flying from pak air base was a different issue than taking down russian planes inside pakistan---.

The early 60's was a different time for russia---at that time the russians were extremely wary and volatile---they were at their prime---by the time the afghan war came, they had totally worn themselves down---their economy was in shamble---their industry was grinding down---.


One of my relatives a special forces operator---abducted and possibly tortured killed by the russians in poland when he was stationed at the pak embassy in 84---85( family was not aloowed to open the coffin )---talked of pak special forces missions into mainland russia during the afghan war---. During the afghan war---the pak millitary was daring the russians---if pak millitary had the backing of the americans---they would have gone right into mainland russia if america supported the actions.

Never heard of it...