Shooting Down the First Soviet Su-25

[SQ8]

Santro,

Good try----a nice spin----you laid out a maze---huhn. Well---my goodman---another apologist for the paf now---!!!

I have been saying this all the time---if you are not a GOD---then don't claim to be one---otherwise people will treat you as such and if you don't meet upto the standards, they will slaughter you---.

So, if you people stop bragging about the paf and stop comparing it to Zeus---maybe the people might be forgiving----but the incidence regarding the missile boat attack happened as it did---a couple of junior officers wrote about this issue as well---and so the did the electronic spy plane got destroyed on the ground---the one that could fly very high---it wasn't even used.

Oh, I do have a great exposure to pak civil and millitary service----I don't live in ether---.

If they want to buy bmw's for themselves then you got to stop them---you may have to take them out---which means a bloody revolution---.

Now if one of those 6 car showroom was failing in every aspect of the business---maybe you might do them a favour by going there and talking to them and giving them your independant perspective----.

Maybe they needed fresh ideas---because theirs had gone stale---maybe they needed a new vision---because theirs had dulled over the years.

My good man----you had a wonderful perspective and analytical capabilities----but this post of your---disappoints me---.

There are two people on this board ---that in the years that I have known them have gone from being ordinary to becoming extra-ordinary----one of them is Taimikhan and the other one is you---but let me say this---if you slam the door hard---sometimes it hits you back.

I stand by my assessment of the failures of pak air force---the claimed to be gods---but in the end they proved to be mare mortals----for that claim---they will feel the wrath.

Monseiur..
I would hardly consider myself a military apologist..
nor do I consider people gods..
I do however find your critique unjust..

To use your door slamming example..
The door being slammed open is most likely to invite a response of the door being slammed back shut.

I would have whole heartedly agreed with you if you pointed out a few individuals or the individualistic practices that DO plague the AF. In fact there is quite a bit wrong in terms of policy and planning that we could have discussed.
However your broad spectrum and baseless attack has left a bad taste in my mouth as well.

I usually consider your posts as a mentor.. but the last three(excluding your reply to me) have disappointed me ..

 

[MastanKhan]

Santro,

What can I say---sh-it happens----some days you are the bat---some days you are the ball---can't please them all the time---now can we.

 

[SQ8]

Santro,

What can I say---sh-it happens----some days you are the bat---some days you are the ball---can't please them all the time---now can we.

No we cannot, but some messages can be conveyed with more precision than blanket strikes.
There is a lot more I could add in support of your earlier statements .. but it would open a Pandora's box of grapevine accusations for every branch of Pakistan's military..
best we kept that box closed here .....

for nOw.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

As much I want to forget about the incompetency in our defence forces--the more it raises its head---the excuse is given--during the attack--the transmission got cut off---we didnot know what was happening so we didnot use the airforce.

How can pak millitary lie so blatantly---or is it so incompetent----. That is the first thing that happens in a strike---transmission lines go down---theer is jamming----the base may only have a minor window of oppurtunity to relay not even one message but just half of a message---the recieving side / the HQ needs to know what is at stake---the moment the transmission went down---that should have automatically raised the RED FLAG---and it should have been an all out call for battle station and launch a couple of jets---but these guys want to hide in their pants---.

Is there anything beyond PATHETIC for this kind of behaviour from the pak millitary. It is treachery and incompetence at its worst.

 

[Donatello]

I have been following your debate here, but i must say, it was a complete failure by PAF.

PAF Air Chief said that PAF can respond to aerial threat within 3 minutes. I think we have that thread here on PDF. Plus the shiny new command and control center showing images of whole of Pakistan's airspace, manned with PAF officers. I mean what happened to that?


Even if the post under attack could not relay info to Army Corps, and then Army Corps to GHQ (which i think is seriously flawed system, when you need a mere minutes to respond and it takes hours to go through bureaucratic system of command), PAF must have known that there were aerial assets intruding Pakistan, and send the message to nearest airbase, in this case which would be the Peshawar Airbase, which is actually directly bordering Mohmand agency where the attack took place. At 5 minute scramble time for JF-17s and full speed vector to area under attack, it would take at most 10 mins for PAF to respond, contact intruders that they are in wrong section, fall back, land or be shot down.

However, this thing that transmission broke down is pure and plain bull crap. Utter non-sense.


This talk about PAF and Army men buying BMWs and spending cash on other entities, is another debate, but in this specific case, PAF had all the assets to quell such a hostile attack....JF-17s from Peshawar (which is a full fledged airbase, hence has all the SAMs Radars etc), and F-16s from Sargodha...but they never bothered to field any. In this case, whether PAF flies F-86s or F-22 Raptors, won't make a difference.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

During a millitary strike, the first thing that goes down is the transmission---but then what does it mean for the GHQ----should shout in BIG RED----big trouble send help and not to sit on their arses---. You already know the base is under attack----what more you need of the severity of the action.

You people need to ask your millitary---are you up to the task or what---.

 

[Donatello]

I have no doubt about the professionalism of the PAF pilots or the airmen that supplement them.

However, since the May 2nd incident and this NATO strike, i am starting to see that this is more of a Air Chief Marshal issue, and as they say that Deputy Chief of Airstaff, Shahid Latif was passed on, it is starting to make sense why you would put Rao Qamar at the top. You would want someone who can tolerate this kind non-sense, someone who is sold out. Shame on him. People with dignity, resign in such cases.

This transmission broke down thing, has happened twice and is absolute bull-crap. Those who believe in it, are the same people who vote for PPP and PML-N again and again expecting something different every time.