Shadow of Brutal ’79 War Darkens Vietnam’s View of China Relations

[Aepsilons]

Don't mind NiceGuy. Even as a Vietnamese I feel his comments really extreme. Vietnam-Cambodia war is little taked about in both our history textbook and media. Also it's largely vague and lack of details, the rest is propaganda.

It is fine to have national pride, but to go uber-nationalistic sometimes have negative tendencies. Appreciate your balanced view(s), my friend @xesy .

 

[Phukimak]

NiceGuy, you are a bit too extreme. Chill bro, your words here do not change anything. Rather you are downgrading the image of Viet mems here by being aggressive and unreasonable. The truth is not achieved by shouting, but by patiently defending it.

Dude, his words way too extreme... Lol
And exaggerate...

 

[NiceGuy]

I don't think it would have been possible for VN to conquer Thailand, my friend. Thailand is too massive of a country. Population wise and military wise.

Dealing with backwards country such as Cambodia , was possible, with a population of (then) around 4 million. But Thailand had a population (then) at 30-40 million. Plus, the Royal Thai Army was largerly modernized during this time.

You should read into the Thai Air Force's bombing raids on Vietnamese Army on the Khmer border. Thai F-5s were very capable in destroying Vietnamese artillery.

Bro, do u know how many F-5 were shot down during VN war ?? do u think ur F-5 is better than US f-5 in VN war ?? Just bcz we didnt wanna shoot it down, thats it .

U can see who fought better in this batte

Thai–Laotian Border War
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thai–Laotian Border War

Noen 1428 (Hill no. 1428), the battlefield of Thai–Laotian Border War of 1988, view from Phu Soidao National Park, Chat Trakan, Phitsanulok, Thailand.
DateDecember 1987 - February 1988
Location Chat Trakan, Phitsanulok
Botene District, Sainyabuli
ResultPeace talks in Bangkok.

• Return to status quo ante bellum

Belligerents

Laos

Vietnam

Thailand
Casualties and losses
~1,000 total casualties[1]
The Thai–Laotian Border War (December 1987 – February 1988) was a short confrontation between Thai and Laotian forces. It was caused by a dispute involving the map made by French surveyors in 1907 to mark the borders between Siam and French Indochina in the southern Luang Prabang Range mountain area. Ownership of the village of Ban Romklao on the border of Phitsanulok Province and three small border villages on the edge of Uttaradit Province was left unclear. (This is the same map underlying the Cambodian–Thai border dispute. The agreed factor in determining ownership was the natural watershed, but the French map makers at times ignored this.[2])

A series of minor shooting incidents had occurred between Thai and Laotian forces in 1984. In December 1987, however, Thai armed forces occupied the disputed village of Ban Romklao, raising the Thai flag over it. The government of the Lao People's Democratic Republic protested strongly, insisting the village was part of Botèn district of Xaignabouliprovince. Thailand replied that the village belonged to Chat Trakandistrict (amphoe) of Phitsanulok Province. Pathet Lao forces staged a night attack on the small Thai garrison, driving the Thai soldiers from the village and replacing the Thai flag with that of the Lao PDR. Serious fighting followed, continuing for weeks until a cease-fire was declared on February 19, 1988.

The brief war claimed a total of about 1,000 casualties, the Thais suffering more heavily since for much of the war they were attacking entrenched Laotian positions. Gen. Chavalit Yongchaiyudh was the commander of the Royal Thai Army at the time of the war and was criticized for engaging in it against the wishes of the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Vietnam had assisted its communist ally, sending troops from the Second Vietnamese Infantry Division to Baan Nakok air field in Xaignabouli to support the Laotian military operations, amidst the border clashes with Thailand along the Thai–Cambodian border.[3]


Thai–Laotian Border War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The brief war claimed a total of about 1,000 casualties, the Thais suffering more heavily since for much of the war they were attacking entrenched Laotian positions.............Vietnam had assisted its communist ally, sending troops from the Second Vietnamese Infantry Division to Baan Nakok air field in Xaignabouli to support the Laotian military operations, amidst the border clashes with Thailand along the Thai–Cambodian border

 

[BoQ77]

Its perfect for Viet Nam !

There are issues in your premise(s), my friend @somsak :

1. Vietnam never desired to expand into Thailand; but to route the Khmer Rouge, who then took refuge (albeit, invited by the RTA) into territories of Eastern Thailand such as Nakhon Ratchasima and surrounding provinces.

2. The presence of Vietnam in Cambodia was necessary until the country (Cambodia), which had largely experienced decimation of 1/4th of their population by Khmer Rouge, did not have the proper infrastructure / services to support normal activity. Vietnamese forces in cambodia allowed the rebuilding of the country and restoration of civil services.

3. The historical premise of Champa does not relegate to Thailand because Champa was in Southern Vietnam, and never was in Cambodia or in present day Siamese power centers such as Ayuthaya, Bangkok.

There's no attack to Thai lands if Thailand not allow Khmer Rouge enter their land.
And because of Thailand saved Khmer Rouge, Vietnam army must stay to protect Cambodia from Khmer Rouge.
Leave room for Khmer Rouge to recover their power, to get finance from USA, weapons from China, Thailand turn their country to be a part of the battlefield.

That's so different, in anyway, Vietnam did the better job compare to what US did to Afghanistan or Iraq.

When Vietnam retreat the army from Cambodia in 1989, they left the peaceful scenes behind not a chaos.

The real fact that Khmer Rouge is the clear enemy of Cambodian people, who help them created hate of Cambodian people.

 

[NiceGuy]

It is fine to have national pride, but to go uber-nationalistic sometimes have negative tendencies. Appreciate your balanced view(s), my friend @xesy .

balanced view(s) can not change the Truth, bro. So, I think I'd better to let people know whatch is the real truth. They may dont like me, but thats can not change the Truth

 

[Aepsilons]

Bro, do u know how many F-5 were shot down during VN war ?? do u think ur F-5 is better than US f-5 in VN war ?? Just bcz we didnt wanna shoot it down, thats it .

There were casualties on both sides. And in my opinion, Vietnam People's Army , from its experiences in waging war , puts emphasis on logistics. In fact, Viet Nam never even intended to invade Cambodia. I rather am in awe at what some posters here posit as Vietnamese aggression towards the Cambodians, but they forget to understand that it was the Cambodians (Kampuchea) that initiated offensive with Viet Nam by invading Tho Chu and executed some 500-600 Vietnamese civilians. And before that , Cambodian forces invaded the Vietnamese island of Phu Quoc.

Viet Nam , then unleashed a counter-offensive to complete the following objectives:
A) Reclaim Vietnamese territories of Tho Chu and Phu Quoc island
B) Remove Khmer Rouge regime

The war strategy of the Vietnam People's Army was to reclaim territory and to remove the barbaric Khmer Rouge, who where themselves responsible for the systematic execution of 1/4th of their own population; many of whom were learned professionals. This accounts for the reason why it would take Cambodia quite some time to develop its technical sector .

The logistics of the Cambodian Theater put a toll on the Vietnam Peoplese Army, and it was never in their prerogative to wage war with Thailand. In fact Thailand was never in the equation at all.

There's no attack to Thai lands if Thailand not allow Khmer Rouge enter their land.
And because of Thailand saved Khmer Rouge, Vietnam army must stay to protect Cambodia from Khmer Rouge.
Leave room for Khmer Rouge to recover their power, to get finance from USA, weapons from China, Thailand turn their country to be a part of the battlefield.

That's so different, in anyway, Vietnam did the better job compare to what US did to Afghanistan or Iraq.

When Vietnam retreat the army from Cambodia in 1989, they left the peaceful scenes behind not a chaos.

The real fact that Khmer Rouge is the clear enemy of Cambodian people, who help them created hate of Cambodian people.

Yes, I do agree. Vietnam's intervention into Cambodia was definitely necessary and imperative. Vietnam not only reclaimed her territory in Tho Chu and Phu Quoc, but also, saved the Cambodian people from the barbarism of the Khmer Rouge.

 

[BoQ77]

There's one point someone use to word attack Vietnam.
Relation between Khmer Rouge ( actually a communism party ) with Vietnam.

It's quite complicated, but see the biography of Samdec Hun Sen could understand some:
Be noted that during 1977-1978, there's several refugees fled to Vietnam, not only Hun Sen ( at the time - is a member of Khmer Rouge )

Hun Sen left his family at the age of 13 to attend a monastic school in Phnom Penh. When Lon Nol usurped power from Sihanouk in 1970 during a bloodless coup, Hun Nal gave up his education to join the Khmer Rouge. Two years later, Hun Nal changed his name to Hun Sen. In 1974, Hun Sen met his future wife Bun Rany. He was wounded his left eye in battle and had it later removed in 1975, on the day before the Khmer Rouge captured Phnom Penh.[16] The following year, Hun Sen married Bun Rany.
Hun Sen came to power with the Khmer Rouge and served as a Battalion Commander in the Eastern Region of Democratic Kampuchea (the state name during the Khmer rouge government). In 1977 during internal purges of the Khmer Rouge regime, Hun Sen and his battalion cadres fled to Vietnam. Hun Sen became one of the leaders of the rebel army and government that the Vietnamese government sponsored when they prepared to invade Cambodia. When the Khmer Rouge regime was overthrown, Hun Sen was appointed Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of the Vietnamese-installed People's Republic of Kampuchea/State of Cambodia (PRK/SOC) in 1979. As the de facto leader of Cambodia, in 1985, he was elected as Chairman of the Council of Ministers and Prime Minister, after the death of Chan Sy. As Foreign Minister and then Prime Minister, Hun Sen played a pivotal role[citation needed] in the 1991 Paris Peace Talks, which brokered peace in Cambodia. During this period Prince Norodom Sihanouk referred to him as a "One eyed lackey of the Vietnamese".

Wednesday, 23 November 2011
Posted by Serath

PHNOM PENH, Nov 23 (CEN) - Prime Minister Hun Sen has told Vietnam-Cambodia Friendship Association President Vu Mao that the trial of Khmer Rouge leaders which started this week was an historic result of Vietnam’s assistance to Cambodia.

Speaking in a closed-door meeting at the Peace Palace Tuesday, Hun Sen also thanked Vietnam for helping Cambodia from the tragedy of the Khmer Rouge regime between 1975 and 1979.

The conversation took place on the second day of the trial of former Khmer Rouge leaders Nuon Chea, Ieng Sary and Khieu Samphan, who are accused of crimes against humanity and genocide.

On April 18, 1978, Pol Pot, fearing a Vietnamese attack, ordered a pre-emptive invasion of Vietnam. His Cambodian forces crossed the border and looted nearby villages, mostly in the border town of Ba Chue. Of the 3,157 civilians who had lived in Ba Chúc,[65] only two survived the massacre. These Cambodian forces were repelled by the Vietnamese.[66]

By December 1978, due to several years of border conflict and the flood of refugees fleeing Kampuchea, relations between Cambodia and Vietnam collapsed. On December 25, 1978, the Vietnamese armed forces, along with the Kampuchean United Front for National Salvation, an organization that included many dissatisfied former Khmer Rouge members,[67] then invaded Cambodia, capturing Phnom Penh on January 7, 1979. Despite a traditional Cambodian fear of Vietnamese domination, defecting Khmer Rouge activists assisted the Vietnamese, and, with Vietnam's approval, became the core of the new People's Republic of Kampuchea, quickly dismissed by the Khmer Rouge and China as a "puppet government".[66]

At the same time, the Khmer Rouge retreated west, and it continued to control certain areas near the Thai border for the next decade. These included Phnom Malai, the mountainous areas near Pailin in the Cardamom Mountains, and Anlong Veng in the Dângrêk Mountains.[68]

These Khmer Rouge bases were not self-sufficient and were funded by diamond and timber smuggling, by military assistance from China channeled by means of the Thai military, and by food smuggled from markets across the border in Thailand

 

[somsak]

Its perfect for Viet Nam !




There are issues in your premise(s), my friend @somsak :

1. Vietnam never desired to expand into Thailand; but to rout the Khmer Rouge, who then took refuge (albeit, invited by the RTA) into territories of Eastern Thailand such as Nakhon Ratchasima and surrounding provinces.

2. The presence of Vietnam in Cambodia was necessary until the country (Cambodia), which had largely experienced decimation of 1/4th of their population by Khmer Rouge, did not have the proper infrastructure / services to support normal activity. Vietnamese forces in cambodia allowed the rebuilding of the country and restoration of civil services.

3. The historical premise of Champa does not relegate to Thailand because Champa was in Southern Vietnam, and never was in Cambodia or in present day Siamese power centers such as Ayuthaya, Bangkok.

@Nihonjin1051. I'm glad to hear your view.
Please read this, we can discuss after you read the wiki.

Your parent generation's action

In 1979 Japan stepped up the pressure by suspending all economic aid to Vietnam, and warned Vietnamese leaders that economic aid would only resume when Vietnam amended its policies towards Kampuchea, the Sino-Soviet rivalry and the problem of the boat people.[70] Sweden, which was considered the staunchest supporter of Vietnam in the West, also considered reducing its commitments to the communist country as virtually every other country cancelled its aid​

Showing clearly that Japan government at that strongly disagree Vietnam's occupation of Cambodia.

source
Cambodian–Vietnamese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

It is not my premise that Thailand fear the expansionism of Vietnam. It is the historical fact. Fact that happened in Thai elite of that time. Fear in thier hearts has really occured.

Thailand, which shares an 800-kilometer (500-mile) border with Kampuchea and has historically feared Vietnam's expansionism, demanded that Vietnam immediately remove its troops from Kampuchea so its people could elect a government free from foreign intervention. Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines and Singapore showed their support for Thailand's position.[43] Furthermore, ASEAN viewed Vietnam’s invasion and subsequent occupation of Kampuchea, which received strong Soviet support, as an intolerable threat to the region’s security and stability.[47]​

source
Cambodian–Vietnamese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Premise? Read Domino Theory. If it is premise, it is a BIG premise. Because Its even has theory that describe such a premise

Domino theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

There are reiterated romors from Thai source that General Tien Van Dung said at Hanoi that Bangkok will fall to Vietnam within 2 hours. There are many websites that reiterate this word. Perhaps this is romor, perhaps it was the report from Thailand intelligence Unit.

Please look at Intenational Law & Reaction. Khmer Rouge = Democratic Kampuchea, People's Republic of Kampuchea = VN's puppet government. The world recognize Khmer Rouge government as legitmate despite its crime on its own people.

At the 34th Session of the UN General Assembly, representatives of the People's Republic of Kampuchea and Democratic Kampuchea both claimed the right to represent their country. The former also notified the member nations of the UN Security Council that it was the sole legitimate representative of Kampuchea and its people.[45] In response, the UN Credentials Committee decided to recognise Democratic Kampuchea by a vote of six to three, despite the Khmer Rouge's blood-stained record while in power. Accordingly, representatives of Democratic Kampuchea were allowed to be seated in the General Assembly, with strong support from China.[46] By January 1980, 29 countries had established diplomatic relations with the People Republic of Kampuchea, yet nearly 80 countries still recognised the legitimacy of the deposed Democratic Kampuchea. At the same time, the Western powers and the member countries of the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN) also voiced strong condemnation of Vietnam’s use of force to remove the Khmer Rouge regime.[43]​

source
Cambodian–Vietnamese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BoQ77]

SEATO think so because SEATO created to face communism expansion, we are communism.
At the time, USA and their ally, SEATO ... all hate Vietnam.
The time is the best answer. We don't expect those old days people understand well about the situation, They are lured by China, USA, even US-controlled UN at that time.
The seat of Khmer Rouge in UN is the saddest thing in human history.
The majority is not always true. That's an example.

@somsak: the past is the past. In your view, is it true to accommodate Khmer Rouge in Thailand bases or not ?

At this moment, the historical fact may happen again, when Malaysia, Thailand ... never realised the China hands, or scared of them.

@Nihonjin1051. I'm glad to hear your view.
Please read this, we can discuss after you read the wiki.

Your parent generation's action

In 1979 Japan stepped up the pressure by suspending all economic aid to Vietnam, and warned Vietnamese leaders that economic aid would only resume when Vietnam amended its policies towards Kampuchea, the Sino-Soviet rivalry and the problem of the boat people.[70] Sweden, which was considered the staunchest supporter of Vietnam in the West, also considered reducing its commitments to the communist country as virtually every other country cancelled its aid​

Showing clearly that Japan government at that strongly disagree Vietnam's occupation of Cambodia.

source
Cambodian–Vietnamese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

It is not my premise that Thailand fear the expansionism of Vietnam. It is the historical fact. Fact that happened in Thai elite of that time. Fear in thier hearts has really occured.

Thailand, which shares an 800-kilometer (500-mile) border with Kampuchea and has historically feared Vietnam's expansionism, demanded that Vietnam immediately remove its troops from Kampuchea so its people could elect a government free from foreign intervention. Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines and Singapore showed their support for Thailand's position.[43] Furthermore, ASEAN viewed Vietnam’s invasion and subsequent occupation of Kampuchea, which received strong Soviet support, as an intolerable threat to the region’s security and stability.[47]​

source
Cambodian–Vietnamese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Premise? Read Domino Theory. If it is premise, it is a BIG premise. Because Its even has theory that describe such a premise

Domino theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

There are reiterated romors from Thai source that General Tien Van Dung said at Hanoi that Bangkok will fall to Vietnam within 2 hours. There are many websites that reiterate this word. Perhaps this is romor, perhaps it was the report from Thailand intelligence Unit.

Please look at Intenational Law & Reaction. Khmer Rouge = Democratic Kampuchea, People's Republic of Kampuchea = VN's puppet government. The world recognize Khmer Rouge government as legitmate despite its crime on its own people.

At the 34th Session of the UN General Assembly, representatives of the People's Republic of Kampuchea and Democratic Kampuchea both claimed the right to represent their country. The former also notified the member nations of the UN Security Council that it was the sole legitimate representative of Kampuchea and its people.[45] In response, the UN Credentials Committee decided to recognise Democratic Kampuchea by a vote of six to three, despite the Khmer Rouge's blood-stained record while in power. Accordingly, representatives of Democratic Kampuchea were allowed to be seated in the General Assembly, with strong support from China.[46] By January 1980, 29 countries had established diplomatic relations with the People Republic of Kampuchea, yet nearly 80 countries still recognised the legitimacy of the deposed Democratic Kampuchea. At the same time, the Western powers and the member countries of the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN) also voiced strong condemnation of Vietnam’s use of force to remove the Khmer Rouge regime.[43]​

source
Cambodian–Vietnamese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[areal]

Keep dreaming please, if you cannot resist China army, then you can make a sweet dream that the GREAT Viet defeated the corrupted PLA.

Yeah, but most of my post r true. Mod ban me many times bcz I said "China army is corrupted to the core", and finally, thats true. Chinese kid pay upto $16,000 to join the army not to fight but to rob Tax and ruin the PLA.

Dont dont listen to me, yeah, I dont care, Truth is still the Truth. In near future, u guys will see not only one Thai general support VN but many more will show their support in creating a stronger Sub-Mekong region even when some Thai here worry abt it. And why Thai general support VN even it put Thailand in danger ?? bcz Thai now is ruled by Military dictatorship Govt., and all they care is abt their lives and their families, they dont wanna fight with VN army and die like in 1979

 

[somsak]

SEATO think so because SEATO created to face communism expansion, we are communism.
At the time, USA and their ally, SEATO ... all hate Vietnam.
The time is the best answer. We don't expect those old days people understand well about the situation, They are lured by China, USA, even US-controlled UN at that time.
The seat of Khmer Rouge in UN is the saddest thing in human history.
The majority is not always true. That's an example.

@somsak: the past is the past. In your view, is it true to accommodate Khmer Rouge in Thailand bases or not ?

At this moment, the historical fact may happen again, when Malaysia, Thailand ... never realised the China hands, or scared of them.

Here is the point. "True" = fact?
Perhaps true in different country means different thing?

I will answer 2 different meaning coz I do not sure which meaning u mean

Is it the fact in the past, already happened, that Thailand host Khmer Rouge?
Yes

Is it morally correct to do so? Given the fact that Khmer Rouge purges Cambodia's own people.
Yes. Because Khmer Rouge was recognized by U.N.


Remember, friend: Past is Past

 

[BoQ77]

True mean what you think good or bad. All of us here not represent for any govt. org ...
Once Thailand host Khmer Rouge, from which they launch counter strike to Cambodia army
then any attack to Thai lands ... is not unreasonable.

Aftermath of Khmer Rouge criminal against human-being told us all.

 

[somsak]

True mean what you think good or bad. All of us here not represent for any govt. org ...
Once Thailand host Khmer Rouge, from which they launch counter strike to Cambodia army
then any attack to Thai lands ... is not unreasonable.

Yes friend,
Thai leader at that time can just ignore Khmer Rouge, but instread help Khmer Rouge.
Thai leader of that time must have picked the choice of War with Vietnam.

Ok I will use True like your meaning.
Because What is true for Thailand is not true for VN
You see. Even though I present so much info you cannot argue from our point of view. (That u r communist, that communist rule are bad, that u r no longer communism, that communist famine in China, that communist purge Lao's Royal institution, that communist is your disguise expansionism), you just ignore those and keep what is true only for Vietnam and not for us. The only choice is obvious.

Now I will change the world true to good.
Because What is good for Thailand is not good for Vietnam.
You see. Even though I present so much info you cannot argue from our point of view. (That u r communist, that communist rule are bad, that u r no longer communism, that communist famine in China, that communist purge Lao's Royal institution, that communist is your disguise expansionism), you just ignore those and keep what is good only for Vietnam and not for us. The only choice is obvious.

Why the true for Vietnam is not true for UN? Why Japan,ASEAN, US,China,Thailand, all condemn you?

In real life, have you ever see a stubborn person who do something wrong and keep saying he is doing the right thing no matter how many people around him say otherwise?

Your father generation finally do the right thing. Free Cambodia and socialize Asean. It is just like the stubborn person stop doing what he did, and society give him a chance to rejoin social.

 

[BoQ77]

it's true that Vietnam saved Cambodian innocent people.
It's good if any act save humanity, humanbeing ...

I never based on communism or capitalism to justify the case.
If someone in the name of communism to kill their people ( Khmer Rouge ), they are still pure killers.

In your view, who benefit from the death of over 2 million Cambodian people?
If you were commander of Vietnam at the time before launching attack to Khmer Rouge, but after their raiding to massacre over 3000 Vietnamese innocent people, what will you do as best? Remember, China prepared well to invade Vietnam both direction, from North by themselves and South by China-backed Khmer Rouge.

 

[somsak]

it's true that Vietnam saved Cambodian innocent people.
It's good if any act save humanity, humanbeing ...

I never based on communism or capitalism to justify the case.
If someone in the name of communism to kill their people ( Khmer Rouge ), they are still pure killers.

In your view, who benefit from the death of over 2 million Cambodian people?
If you were commander of Vietnam at the time before launching attack to Khmer Rouge, but after their raiding to massacre over 3000 Vietnamese innocent people, what will you do as best? Remember, China prepared well to invade Vietnam both direction, from North by themselves and South by China-backed Khmer Rouge.

Then why do you stay there occupied Cambodia for 10 years?
Why do you have to fight the Khmer Rouge even though they take refugee inside our land?

- Clear the Khmer Rouge and then handle the case to UN security force. Let UN security force handle ramnent Khmer Rouge force ,within 1 year
- Clear the Khmer Rouge and then return the country to the King of Cambodia. Let her King handle ramnent of Khmer Rouge force, within 1 year
- Clear the Khmer Rouge and let ASEAN countries find the security force, within 1 year

There are tons of way to do it. Those tons of way, however, do not maximize VN power.
VN choose the way, which worry us the most. VN choose the way that maximize VN power.
That is why VN is guilty from the point of The world's view.