Featured SH15 Artillery in Pakistan

[PanzerKiel]

first do we have chamb like i heard that we captured from india in65.
and why we didn’t captured kargil town in kargil war 99
and why we didn’t attempt for zojila pass.
and does the famous peak 5353 is on indians side or our.
and do we still have line of sight on nh1d

We do have Chamb, captured again by Gen Eftikhar, GOC 23 Division, that's why now known as Eftikharabad.

Capturing of Kargil and Zoji La pass wasn't our aim. Interdiction of Kargil Leh highway was.

This thread, like that VT-4 one, is likely to expand due to multifarious topics being discussed here, instead of SH15 only.

Let's keep it to Artillery only.

and does the famous peak 5353 is on indians side or our.
and do we still have line of sight on nh1d

These things, I believe , have been discussed already in detail in Kargil section.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Bofor guns were as effective as any other Artillery on both sides. Troops in the open were vulnerable to all types of Artillery. While troops under overhangs etc were almost impervious.

Our Artillery, since it was s firing from its original positions on our side of LOC, was not that effective simply because it wasn't redeployed to cover all approaches towards areas which we had captured. Otherwise, wherever our Artillery intervened, it was swift and deadly. Indian accounts also support this, along with praising the accuracy of our weapon locating radars which helped us in swift counter bombardment.

We even managed to heli lift a field gun into Indian territory, which remained unnoticed till Indians reached the gun position. This gun proved to be of a great nuisance value since Indians were unable to silence it.

There is a vast stock of 25 pounders and ammo remaining. Quality of the gun is such that it is still effective. Being supplemented more with Italian 105 Pack howitzers.

Chamb is generally tankable country, good for all sorts of mechanized forces.



Sole reason for its going for diverse equipment is that we shouldn't be at the mercy of one country to provide us spares or maintainance. That's why we have multiple types of tasks, AD assets, Artillery, aircraft etc.



There are some specific differences, due to which one of these guns has been slated for defensive formations , while the other is for offensive formations.

What's about Panter-155 guns in PA? Some posters have said they're no longer in use....

 

[PanzerKiel]

What's about Panter-155 guns in PA? Some posters have said they're no longer in use....

I believe they are right. We have only one piece of Panter.

 

[ali_raza]

We do have Chamb, captured again by Gen Eftikhar, GOC 23 Division, that's why now known as Eftikharabad.

Capturing of Kargil and Zoji La pass wasn't our aim. Interdiction of Kargil Leh highway was.

This thread, like that VT-4 one, is likely to expand due to multifarious topics being discussed here, instead of SH15 only.

Let's keep it to Artillery only.



These things, I believe , have been discussed already in detail in Kargil section.

actually i was doing my own research regarding this new purchase and how it will change our standing in the next conflict
as i came to know that this arty piece is capable of firing ws35 whose range is 90-100 km max.
so it opens up soo manufactured new options and fronts for us.
soo much soo that if we go in today like kargil or batalik.
we can very well support out troops from safety of our own country
this piece as i heard is capable of MRSI
of coarse u can shed some like on usefulness of that feature too if any.
and btw do we also exchange artillery along international border like LOC ir its just kashmir area.and wht about upper areas like feom kargil to sichin do we have skirmishes there too lile we do have daily in pooch or neelam

 

[Zarvan]

We do have Chamb, captured again by Gen Eftikhar, GOC 23 Division, that's why now known as Eftikharabad.

Capturing of Kargil and Zoji La pass wasn't our aim. Interdiction of Kargil Leh highway was.

This thread, like that VT-4 one, is likely to expand due to multifarious topics being discussed here, instead of SH15 only.

Let's keep it to Artillery only.



These things, I believe , have been discussed already in detail in Kargil section.

By the way any other weapon being procured which Army is now okay to share the news of ???

 

[Arsalan]

300+ is a huge number. It makes sense to produce these in house?

I don't have any idea about that. But i don't think that there will be local production involved. Who will manufacture these anyway? At max i see maintenance etc or perhaps barrel manufacturing or other such component manufacturing but even then it will mean assembly in Pakistan. I don't think that will happen. Not for the first batch for sure and very unlikely for the follow-up ones as well.

The design philosophy of SH15 and T5-52 guns are completely different.
T5-52 is a truck with a gun.
While SH15 is a gun with a truck. PLA requirement for SH15 regarding accuracy is at least the same as PLZ-05.
Basically all other truck-mounted 155mm howitzer accuracy is lower than tracked self-propelled howitzer.

That was said for PCL-181 i think.

SP artillery is not heli-transportable for mountanous areas.

Nope! For that we need light weight towed artillery. For heavier ones that we use currently we mostly have to rely on mules (very slow).

 

[Arsalan]

I hope none of us is clearly suggesting that SP Artillery be used in mountainous terrain. If yes, how will it be moved up using the roads?

Sir most of the northern areas have paved road quite close to LoC and that is where these guns can and will be used.

So yes, these wheeled SPH will prove useful in the north. That is one of the reasons we are going for wheeled systems rather than the usual tracked ones.

@viva_zhaoMy point is, be it tanks or SP Artillery or APCs, it is a bad idea to move them on roads, since tracked vehicles damage the roads badly.

Well sir isn't this why we are going for wheeled artillery? SH15 is wheeled artillery.

That's why, you must have seen, mechanized forces are transported to the battlefield in 30 meter long tank transporters.

So, how again, keeping in view the narrow, generally one way, mountainous roads, do they allow you the traverse for moving these t tank transporters?

Again, this is wheeled artillery not tracked. We wont be using transporters for these boss. It weights around 25 tons is only slightly bigger than a 20ft container truck that we see being used on those roads anyway.

Actually, one of the key reasons to go for wheeled SPH is that it can be used in some of those northern/LoC sectors.

I mean no disrespect when i disagree with you @PanzerKiel sir. I hope you will see the points i am making and we can discuss this further.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

I think the M777 and AH4 are more for deploying artillery against non-state actors, and not at a tactical level, but strategic. For the US, the point was to get artillery to remote places ASAP -- and without low-end enemies knowing (because transport is via helicopter, not road).

So, for Pakistan, the value of the AH4 isn't so much against India in Kashmir, but for rapid artillery deployment at peaks along the Afghan border. Neither the Taliban or Afghan Army have the weapon locating and response, so AH4 can be a solution.

However, Pakistan has a huge trove of older artillery that is "good enough" for counterinsurgency ops and use on the Afghan border, so the 'need' for AH4 isn't urgent.

Which artillery is used in Kashmir terrain? Towed or SPH?

 

[Arsalan]

Wait ??? We are buying two SP Artillery Guns ????

NO!!
I hope @PanzerKiel will clear this at earliest possible time. Otherwise i am worried you may start claiming this to be an undeniable fact
PLEASE DO THAT SIR!

What he meant was that both systems were APPROVED after trials for procurement. That means both systems PASSED the trials and the technical branch approved both of them and deemed both of them ok as per our requirement (in fact, Nora B-52 was also APPROVED after second trials, it do not mean we are getting those too). After that it goes into negotiation stage with terms and parameter equally important as the technical aspects are negotiated and finalized. So while both were ok technically, practically we are going for one system. The reasons T5-52 despite being approved technically didn't happened piratically have been discussed in the past.

Both sh-15 and t5-52 seems to be similar purpose weapons so does not make sense to go with two type if this news is true

let see when Confirmation is received via Janes or official sources

T5-52, along with SH15 was approved last year, thats for sure. However, news floating around point towards procurement of only SH15 at the moment.

It could mean, given availability of money, T5-52 could probably be inducted at a later stage. God knows.

https://quwa.org/2019/03/27/denel-reportedly-in-talks-to-sell-artillery-to-a-country-in-asia-2/

THANK YOU BOSS!

Thanks for clearing it. You have saved us a lot of trouble.
Plus it was not only about the money sir. The reliability of a new supplier is another key issue. Especially considering India's influence in South Africa (well that's a personal opinion however)

What's about Panter-155 guns in PA? Some posters have said they're no longer in use....

Well we have just one example in School of Artillery (and that too reportedly gathering dust, i am sorry about that)

 

[IblinI]

Sir most of the northern areas have paved road quite close to LoC and that is where these guns can and will be used.
View attachment 629798

View attachment 629796

View attachment 629797

So yes, these wheeled SPH will prove useful in the north. That is one of the reasons we are going for wheeled systems rather than the usual tracked ones.


Well sir isn't this why we are going for wheeled artillery? SH15 is wheeled artillery.


Again, this is wheeled artillery not tracked. We wont be using transporters for these boss. It weights around 25 tons is only slightly bigger than a 20ft container truck that we see being used on those roads anyway.

Actually, one of the key reasons to go for wheeled SPH is that it can be used in some of those northern/LoC sectors.

I mean no disrespect when i disagree with you. I hope you will see the points i am making.

So we could have see it in action in future on LOC?

 

[PanzerKiel]

First , before I answer any queries

What I found was that we faced some problems with the Sh15 once it came here, we then decided for SH2, I've got details of its trials as well, pretty successful and several advantages for us which will unfold subsequently.

SH2 now. A better version of SH15.

actually i was doing my own research regarding this new purchase and how it will change our standing in the next conflict
as i came to know that this arty piece is capable of firing ws35 whose range is 90-100 km max.
so it opens up soo manufactured new options and fronts for us.
soo much soo that if we go in today like kargil or batalik.
we can very well support out troops from safety of our own country
this piece as i heard is capable of MRSI
of coarse u can shed some like on usefulness of that feature too if any.
and btw do we also exchange artillery along international border like LOC ir its just kashmir area.and wht about upper areas like feom kargil to sichin do we have skirmishes there too lile we do have daily in pooch or neelam

MRSI, multiple rounds, simultaneous impact, enables you to fire several projectiles, c with different charges and trajectories, to land a target at the same time, even though fired at different times. Helps in quick neutralization of any critical target.

Artillery, very rarely, opens up LOC, rather, opening of Artillery is taken seriously along LOC. That's why, maximum of mortars are used.

No Artillery fire in Siachen or along international boundary.

 

[Arsalan]

Which artillery is used in Kashmir terrain? Towed or SPH?

Towed right now as the terrain is not suitable for tracked SPH and we do not have any wheeled ones. That is one of the main reasons we are going for wheeled SPH now.

Towed artillery can be addressed easily due the AH-4 so there is no need to fret now, it will happen in time. The focus is on the armored divisions.

In towed artillery we have plenty of options and good current inventory as well. AH-4 is lucrative if you want to transport them by helicopter (due to light weight). However, the question is, DO WE NEED TO DO THAT?

Frankly, I do not think helicopter transportable guns are a thing for us, especially for the northern sectors (for which they are usually talked about/discussed). If you look at that terrain and keep in mind the range of these guns you will see that more often than not the helicopter carrying those guns will come so close to LoC that it will be in range of even short range ground based SAM battery. Even in range of MANPADs in some situations (hilly terrain, peak advantage, infiltration etc). Besides we do not have enough helicopters to make a significant difference. So in my opinion while these helicopter transportable light weight howitzers look and sound very fancy these are not very practical in Pakistan-India situation, not suitable for either one of us!

So we could have see it in action in future on LOC?

It can be used there. But if you are asking how likely it is to see these in extensive action across LoC then my answer is not very likely, not very often. There are more than one reasons for this.

1. Artillery fire is considered as a major violation/provocation. Will be rarely used in peace time to hit targets across LoC.
2. Pakistan is at a disadvantage that on other side of the border there still are our Muslim Kashmiri Brothers. We cannot go for extensive bombardment as Indians usually do. That is why you see us using mortars and precision attack munitions/ATGMs etc to target Indian forces across LoC.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Sir most of the northern areas have paved road quite close to LoC and that is where these guns can and will be used.
View attachment 629798

View attachment 629796

View attachment 629797

So yes, these wheeled SPH will prove useful in the north. That is one of the reasons we are going for wheeled systems rather than the usual tracked ones.


Well sir isn't this why we are going for wheeled artillery? SH15 is wheeled artillery.


Again, this is wheeled artillery not tracked. We wont be using transporters for these boss. It weights around 25 tons is only slightly bigger than a 20ft container truck that we see being used on those roads anyway.

Actually, one of the key reasons to go for wheeled SPH is that it can be used in some of those northern/LoC sectors.

I mean no disrespect when i disagree with you. I hope you will see the points i am making.

Dear, actually it's not only roads that Artillery want.

There is something which is called crest clearance. You have to position your gun in such a manner that the round fired from your gun should be able to clear the top most point of the mountain right in front of you with a good enough distance..... This problem is always faced whenever you are trying to site an Artillery or a mortar position in narrow values.
Therefore, you may be able to take your Artillery, there, but you not be able to clear the crest every time.

I talked about bridges as well. Most of the bridges on our northern areas may not support 25 or 30 tons weight. This is a very important consideration.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

NO!!
I hope @PanzerKiel will clear this at earliest. Otherwise i am worried you may start claiming this to be an undeniable fact

What he meant was that both systems were APPROVED after trials for procurement. That means both systems PASSED the trials and the technical branch approved both of them and deemed both of them ok as per our requirement (in fact, Nora B-52 was also APPROVED after second trials, it do not mean we are getting those too). After that it goes into negotiation stage with terms and parameter equally important as the technical aspects are negotiated and finalized. So while both were ok technically, practically we are going for one system. The reasons T5-52 despite being approved technically didn't happened piratically have been discussed in the past.





THANK YOU BOSS!

Besides, it was not only about the money sir. The reliability of a new supplier is another key issue. Especially considering India's influence in South Africa (well that's a personal opinion however)


Well we have just one example in School of Artillery (and that too reportedly gathering dust, i am sorry about that)

I think what he meant was that both systems were recommended to be purchased - that is our requirements are such that we need/want both of them. One was found better for offense and the other for defensive purposes. Of course both passed the trial as well. But for now only one is being procured (at least thats what is in the news). It may happen that we will purchase T5-52 later or not at all.
@PanzerKiel

 

[PanzerKiel]

NO!!
I hope @PanzerKiel will clear this at earliest possible time. Otherwise i am worried you may start claiming this to be an undeniable fact
PLEASE DO THAT SIR!

What he meant was that both systems were APPROVED after trials for procurement. That means both systems PASSED the trials and the technical branch approved both of them and deemed both of them ok as per our requirement (in fact, Nora B-52 was also APPROVED after second trials, it do not mean we are getting those too). After that it goes into negotiation stage with terms and parameter equally important as the technical aspects are negotiated and finalized. So while both were ok technically, practically we are going for one system. The reasons T5-52 despite being approved technically didn't happened piratically have been discussed in the past.





THANK YOU BOSS!

Thanks for clearing it. You have saved us a lot of trouble.
Plus it was not only about the money sir. The reliability of a new supplier is another key issue. Especially considering India's influence in South Africa (well that's a personal opinion however)


Well we have just one example in School of Artillery (and that too reportedly gathering dust, i am sorry about that)

One of the primary trains for rejection of T5 and G6 was ammo compatibility. We wanted those guns whose ammo we are already making. But these guns require different type of ammo.

Towed right now as the terrain is not suitable for tracked SPH and we do not have any wheeled ones. That is one of the main reasons we are going for wheeled SPH now.



In towed artillery we have plenty of options and good current inventory as well. AH-4 is lucrative if you want to transport them by helicopter (due to light weight). However, the question is, DO WE NEED TO DO THAT?

Frankly, I do not think helicopter transportable guns are a thing for us, especially for the northern sectors (for which they are usually talked about/discussed). If you look at that terrain and keep in mind the range of these guns you will see that more often than not the helicopter carrying those guns will come so close to LoC that it will be in range of even short range ground based SAM battery. Even in range of MANPADs in some situations (hilly terrain, peak advantage, infiltration etc). Besides we do not have enough helicopters to make a significant difference. So in my opinion while these helicopter transportable light weight howitzers look and sound very fancy these are not very practical in Pakistan-India situation, not suitable for either one of us!


It can be used there. But if you are asking how likely it is to see these in extensive action across LoC then my answer is not very likely, not very often. There are more than one reasons for this.

1. Artillery fire is considered as a major violation/provocation. Will be rarely used in peace time to hit targets across LoC.
2. Pakistan is at a disadvantage that on other side of the border there still are our Muslim Kashmiri Brothers. We cannot go for extensive bombardment as Indians usually do. That is why you see us using mortars and precision attack munitions/ATGMs etc to target Indian forces across LoC.

@PanzerKiel what do you think sir?

Let me clear this thing as well.

We are not buying wheeled Artillery for employment in mountains. Not for mountains.