SH-15 Self propelled howitzer under trials by Pakistan army?

[Arsalan 345]

This Howitzer is just one part of countering Cold Start. We have to first understand how India actually plans to carry out Cold Start. The Indians are training to carry out the New Russian "Battalion Tactical Group" formation method of Blitzkrieg. "Maneuver, Capture, Hold, and Resupply" and the Next unit Leapfrogs them to keep going on and on all the way to the objective. Understand the formation this howitzer and other units will have to counter you have to see what their battle groups look like.

The Cold Start Doctrine Calls for 8 Strike Corps or approximately 18-48 Battalions per corp numbering 25,000 to 50,000 troops per corp. To counter Cold Start this howitzer needs to be integrated into a holistic defense strategy similar to what Nato is doing to counter Russia (where this same Cold Start Strategy is being played out on a larger scale). We should learn from the Decades of Cold War and Post Cold War planning, and take a long hard look as the solutions developed, especially in the US Army's FCS Capabilities.

1. Long Range Sensors on Stealth AZM Drones. Advanced Comint and Signit detection ability can build up a enemy order of battle long before they are in firing range. Equally Pakistan will have to prioritizes securing, making robust and protecting from jamming, its own communications. Elint and EW will be huge parts of the future battle space as we are seeing in Syria today. Upgrading Blue Force Tracking as well as distributing information on the enemy and our plan to counter them needs to be available down to the combatant commanders so they can carry out their part of the plan with their own skills and tactics, and not look to higher headquarters in the fog/chaos of war. This can be a smart phone sized wrist device or eye piece in the helmet, but it should better integrated to speed up the OODA loop.

If war breaks out, the IAF will try to launch massive waves of airstrikes while their army forms up to initiate deep strike attacks. The PAF should counter these strikes, but a dedicated general level command needs to keep the PAF or PA ground units focused on destabilizing the IA formations coming together under a clear picture of the battle space. Striking their C4ISR nodes and Logistics (with cruise missiles, and long range artillery rockets and ballistics missiles) has to be a priority, while defending our own. The PAF should have a reserve force to protect ground installations and army, navy and air force ground vehicles.

2. Manned systems are still able to operate under jamming and should be preferred. Even affordable systems like the Rutan Ares flying CAP missions can carry precision munitions and be launched in large numbers to complicated Indian Attack Helicopters, cruise missiles, precision munitions, as well as striking Indian Units in the battle groups. 4-8 Squadrans (68-136) of Rutan Ares would free up the PAF to launch long range strikes and deal with the IAF. These Ares Squadrans should be part of the Army so they training with the army to better protect them and provide effective covering fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaled_Composites_ARES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG9LlHcX8lg

3. To detect Enemy Ground Forces Maneuvering For an attack, unattended ground sensors and small drones can give more precise targeting data for long range artillery or air platforms with smart munitions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFSxB2zbOGs

4. As for the actual PA vehicles like the New IFV or the truck carrying this Howitzer shown at IDEAS 2018, need to be modified for the terrains they will encounter. The PA should look at Hybrid-Electric options as the cost of batteries decreases. They can help lower fuel consumption and make it a lot easier for logistics. Logistics are a huge part of why Pakistan has to fight shorter wars and the lack of supplies could shift a victory into a loss if under supplied forces are overrun. The vehicles will also be operating in a heavily mined area (their mines and our mines) and should therefore be Mine resistant and have a lower signature in all aspects (IR, Noise, etc). Front line vehicles and scouting vehicles will also need some form of passive and active protection suites.

5. Along with the Howitzer, NLOS carriers that look like tanks can also engage enemy formations in a tank battle, and get the first shot first kill to sow chaos in the enemy formation. The Older 600 Type 59s can be turned into missile carriers and Heavy AFVs rather than be used as tanks where they are no longer suited for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pereh_(missile_carrier)
https://gss0.bdstatic.com/-4o3dSag_xI4khGkpoWK1HF6hhy/baike/c0=baike92,5,5,92,30/sign=c68e1cbcc195d143ce7bec711299e967/d62a6059252dd42aac1df1140a3b5bb5c9eab87d.jpg

These are just a few ways the military can holistically weaken if not neutralize the Indian Cold Start plans. Fear is a huge part of deterrence. So if they want to claim these Howitzers are Nuclear Capable, then let them. The Nasr has prevent war for nearly a decade. Our Defense Industry, and those of our Partners can develop all of these solutions in a few years if we are ready to pay for them.

Peace Through Strength

fantastic post.i think for future battles, we need more advanced drones and EW systems.we must jam their communication before they can launch any attack.also idea of protecting systems against mines is necessary.terrain is difficult.we must analyze our enemy and find their vulnerability.

 

[HRK]

and found the PCL-181 of PLA Army on trial by accident.

any detail ....??

 

[BHarwana]

I think you can find the difference from the two pics:
View attachment 523942 View attachment 523943

One thing to note here from the second pic is that this gun is placing whole barrel weight on ground while in firing position means truck chassis is free of Guns weight and recoil. This will give more accuracy and less wear and tear. Nice design.

 

[randomradio]

i was talking about your one that it can easily achieve 50km+ with base projectiles

No, with base bleed it is 48Km. The gun Osiris posted is in reference to the 52 cal Dhanush.

We are making a new gun that will have a range of 55-60Km with normal shells, not even base bleed.

 

[Akasa]

The WS-35's design allows it to glide, that's completely different.



For 52cal guns, achieving more than 50Km with rocket-assisted shells is the norm. All guns of this calibre can do it.

So what? Every type of artillery ammunition has its own modifications and specializations to amplify one or more of its capabilities, and it wouldn't be logical to infer that a gun would perform more or less with a certain shell based on the firing data involving another type of shell.

 

[randomradio]

So what? Every type of artillery ammunition has its own modifications and specializations to amplify one or more of its capabilities, and it wouldn't be logical to infer that a gun would perform more or less with a certain shell based on the firing data involving another type of shell.

If you want to compare guns, you will have to use standardised ammo, which is typically regular ammo and base bleed ammo.

You may claim the WS-35 has a 100Km range, but if you fire it from a different gun, you may get 110Km or 120Km. It's not like everybody has the WS-35, so you are going to have to look elsewhere for a more accurate comparison.

 

[Akasa]

If you want to compare guns, you will have to use standardised ammo, which is typically regular ammo and base bleed ammo.

You may claim the WS-35 has a 100Km range, but if you fire it from a different gun, you may get 110Km or 120Km. It's not like everybody has the WS-35, so you are going to have to look elsewhere for a more accurate comparison.

Which proves my point; it is useless to compare the so-called "range" of the Indian SPH to the Pakistani SH15 unless they happen to conduct tests using the same shell type and model.

 

[randomradio]

Which proves my point; it is useless to compare the so-called "range" of the Indian SPH to the Pakistani SH15 unless they happen to conduct tests using the same shell type and model.

Everybody uses the same standards for regular shells.

 

[maximuswarrior]

This Howitzer is just one part of countering Cold Start. We have to first understand how India actually plans to carry out Cold Start. The Indians are training to carry out the New Russian "Battalion Tactical Group" formation method of Blitzkrieg. "Maneuver, Capture, Hold, and Resupply" and the Next unit Leapfrogs them to keep going on and on all the way to the objective. Understand the formation this howitzer and other units will have to counter you have to see what their battle groups look like.

The Cold Start Doctrine Calls for 8 Strike Corps or approximately 18-48 Battalions per corp numbering 25,000 to 50,000 troops per corp. To counter Cold Start this howitzer needs to be integrated into a holistic defense strategy similar to what Nato is doing to counter Russia (where this same Cold Start Strategy is being played out on a larger scale). We should learn from the Decades of Cold War and Post Cold War planning, and take a long hard look as the solutions developed, especially in the US Army's FCS Capabilities.

1. Long Range Sensors on Stealth AZM Drones. Advanced Comint and Signit detection ability can build up a enemy order of battle long before they are in firing range. Equally Pakistan will have to prioritizes securing, making robust and protecting from jamming, its own communications. Elint and EW will be huge parts of the future battle space as we are seeing in Syria today. Upgrading Blue Force Tracking as well as distributing information on the enemy and our plan to counter them needs to be available down to the combatant commanders so they can carry out their part of the plan with their own skills and tactics, and not look to higher headquarters in the fog/chaos of war. This can be a smart phone sized wrist device or eye piece in the helmet, but it should better integrated to speed up the OODA loop.

If war breaks out, the IAF will try to launch massive waves of airstrikes while their army forms up to initiate deep strike attacks. The PAF should counter these strikes, but a dedicated general level command needs to keep the PAF or PA ground units focused on destabilizing the IA formations coming together under a clear picture of the battle space. Striking their C4ISR nodes and Logistics (with cruise missiles, and long range artillery rockets and ballistics missiles) has to be a priority, while defending our own. The PAF should have a reserve force to protect ground installations and army, navy and air force ground vehicles.

2. Manned systems are still able to operate under jamming and should be preferred. Even affordable systems like the Rutan Ares flying CAP missions can carry precision munitions and be launched in large numbers to complicated Indian Attack Helicopters, cruise missiles, precision munitions, as well as striking Indian Units in the battle groups. 4-8 Squadrans (68-136) of Rutan Ares would free up the PAF to launch long range strikes and deal with the IAF. These Ares Squadrans should be part of the Army so they training with the army to better protect them and provide effective covering fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaled_Composites_ARES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG9LlHcX8lg

3. To detect Enemy Ground Forces Maneuvering For an attack, unattended ground sensors and small drones can give more precise targeting data for long range artillery or air platforms with smart munitions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFSxB2zbOGs

4. As for the actual PA vehicles like the New IFV or the truck carrying this Howitzer shown at IDEAS 2018, need to be modified for the terrains they will encounter. The PA should look at Hybrid-Electric options as the cost of batteries decreases. They can help lower fuel consumption and make it a lot easier for logistics. Logistics are a huge part of why Pakistan has to fight shorter wars and the lack of supplies could shift a victory into a loss if under supplied forces are overrun. The vehicles will also be operating in a heavily mined area (their mines and our mines) and should therefore be Mine resistant and have a lower signature in all aspects (IR, Noise, etc). Front line vehicles and scouting vehicles will also need some form of passive and active protection suites.

5. Along with the Howitzer, NLOS carriers that look like tanks can also engage enemy formations in a tank battle, and get the first shot first kill to sow chaos in the enemy formation. The Older 600 Type 59s can be turned into missile carriers and Heavy AFVs rather than be used as tanks where they are no longer suited for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pereh_(missile_carrier)
https://gss0.bdstatic.com/-4o3dSag_xI4khGkpoWK1HF6hhy/baike/c0=baike92,5,5,92,30/sign=c68e1cbcc195d143ce7bec711299e967/d62a6059252dd42aac1df1140a3b5bb5c9eab87d.jpg

These are just a few ways the military can holistically weaken if not neutralize the Indian Cold Start plans. Fear is a huge part of deterrence. So if they want to claim these Howitzers are Nuclear Capable, then let them. The Nasr has prevent war for nearly a decade. Our Defense Industry, and those of our Partners can develop all of these solutions in a few years if we are ready to pay for them.

Peace Through Strength

Very informative. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this subject matter.

Nasr has truly poured cold water on Indian Cold Start doctrine. I think Pakistan will continue to invest in nuclear packed artillery, shells and missiles. It provides an excellent response time and mobility. As you rightly point out we need to develop a whole nexus of intelligence gathering for ground movement monitoring that will aid how and when we strike. We can already guage our success by the American/Indian rhetoric. Every time the word nuclear comes up these two nations are up in arms.

 

[denel]

I think you can find the difference from the two pics:
View attachment 523942 View attachment 523943

Thank you; just like i thought; it is a hybrid of towed/self propelled.

 

[Akasa]

Everybody uses the same standards for regular shells.

There is no common definition of "standard". Range can vary even between different makes & models. Just because the OFB howitzer can fire a base-bleed (which, ironically, isn't "standard") to 40 km does not mean that it will exceed the SH15 in range when using the same RAP shell as the latter.

 

[Basel]

View attachment 523254 View attachment 523255

It looks inspired from European Ceaser 155mm gun system.

 

[randomradio]

There is no common definition of "standard". Range can vary even between different makes & models. Just because the OFB howitzer can fire a base-bleed (which, ironically, isn't "standard") to 40 km does not mean that it will exceed the SH15 in range when using the same RAP shell as the latter.

Even the PLA uses NATO-standard 155mm ammo, no different from India or Pakistan or NATO.

It looks inspired from European Ceaser 155mm gun system.

This one's 8x8, the Chinese one is 6x6.

 

[Akasa]

Even the PLA uses NATO-standard 155mm ammo, no different from India or Pakistan or NATO.

Standard caliber doesn't mean standard munition. As I've stated before, different shell families are quite nuanced in their design and can have drastically-different ranges. A great example of this is the WS-35 which outranges even most RAP shells.

 

[Basel]

Pakistan also have evaluated the truck with the Artillery if they weren't satisfied with it why would they plan to induct it ???

PA usually buy customized systems from China so changing truck is not big issue.

Even the PLA uses NATO-standard 155mm ammo, no different from India or Pakistan or NATO.



This one's 8x8, the Chinese one is 6x6.

It depends what configuration customers want, the SH-15 truck is not what any military will like to have, its not practical in field.