Setback for IAF's plans to arm fighter jets with Meteor missiles

[MimophantSlayer]

its not because of our "anger" of india not choosing either gripen or typhoon but that mbda's refusal to integrate a european missile into a russian jet. this would mean the sukhois weapon library would have to be heavily modified to handle the sukhoi, and the architecture is most certainly differant and have to be changed to evry sukhoi that would handel the meteor. oh and also politics said no.

We still have to wait for official confirmation to confindently say that Meteors won't be used in Indian Su-30 but yes you are right if there will be problems it seems like it will be with the MKIs.

Tejas is a different story.

as for the farce, india purchasing aircraft in big numbers goes back to over a decade ago.

it took over a decade for india to commit to purchase 126 rafale and then scrap it and then go back to buy 3 dozen rafale of the shelf with no tangible proof of further orders with local production in sight.

now you tell me is that a farse? if you ask me i was being very lenient

Strawman.

How does that prove it's "a farce"?

Just for that one aberrant incident doesn't mean it won't be bought in numbers and likewise with missiles(which have a far lesser shelf life than fighters and need continous replenishing hence more orders).
Conventional wisdom says that IAF always orders more of their mainstay fighters, especially now when IAF will eventually retire a boat load of old fighters. It is all but guaranteed.

As for off the shelf.

In Parliament yesterday, India’s junior defence minister Subhash Bhamre said, “The quantum of offsets in the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for 36 Rafale fighter jets is 50 per cent, which includes investments in terms of Transfer of Technology (ToT) for manufacture and maintenance of eligible products and services. The current offsets policy of the Defence Procurement permits the vendors to provide details of their Indian Offset Partners (IOP) either at the time of seeking offset credits or one year prior to discharge of offset obligations. Vendor/Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEM) is free to select his Indian Offset Partner.”

The first slide, pertaining to airframe offsets and sourcing, lists the Dassault-Reliance joint venture firm (DRAL) as being part of a group of companies that will produce mechanical parts and sub-assemblies. Other companies in this list include Indian majors like L&T, the Mahindra Group, the Kalyani Group and Godrej & Boyce:

Marked in red are joint venture companies that Dassault and its partners have already incorporated in India, in part, to execute the Rafale deal offsets. Apart from the Dassault Reliance JV, the others include Snecma HAL Aerospace Ltd (SHAe) for aero-engine components and Thales’s joint ventures with India’s SAMTEL for multifunction cockpit displays. The new Thales-Reliance joint venture, named Thales Reliance Defence Systems (TRDS), not only plans to build technologies for Rafales in India and worldwide, but also says it will ‘develop Indian capabilities to integrate and maintain radar and electronic warfare sensors’.

The details revealed today by Livefist add substantially to the level of detail of a conversation that has so far involved much political cloak and dagger from both the government as well as the opposition. The French president departed yesterday after a four-day visit deemed mostly successful on the strategic front, though India notably declined a specific request from the highest levels of the French government to send out a message, while President Macron was in Delhi, that the two countries were in discussions for 36 more Rafale jets.

Here’s more from the Rafale offsets plan and the Indian companies that will be part of it. Rafale deliveries to the Indian Air Force begin in September 2019.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...of-frances-e4-billion-india-offsets-plan.html

If you are assuming we don't have the money you are wrong.
An RFI for fighters worth $15 billions was forwarded few months ago.
Unlike Pakistan we don't need loans or other countries to pay for our weapons pirchases.

If you ask me, you are just underestimating us.

dont know, an indian ramjet missile would be available when the amca would be in available (~2035)

That's just your opinion.

We already have a solid fueled ramjet missile in service, we have the expertise and the experience to get it done in similar time frames as the Meteor if not earlier.

 

[Basel]

Can't put them on anything but JF-17s due to US restrictions.We are not losing any sleep over JF-17s which are already half obsolete.

After block3- JFT, F-16 will not be front line fighter of PAF and still JFT have taken many roles of F-16s including patrolling eastern border and responding threats on eastern border. The block-3 AESA radar will even make your Rafales run for their money.

Also in house 5th gen bird is under development along with NG UCAV, so Pakistan will have multiple platforms to deploy NG BVRs.

 

[Blue Marlin]

So what? What's Pakistan got to do with this?

the point is 495 missile is no biggie

Brexit is yet to happen. And no, GBP is still weaker than it originally was.

if it shuts you up then ok.

It's not as expensive as you believe. Your figures are old.

The Luftwaffe will acquire 150 missiles at a cost of around $323 million, plus a further $175 million for integration. That compares favorably with a price tag of $423 million for 180 AIM-120Ds, which the Pentagon paid in 2012.

The missile itself costs only $2.1M.

thats because the germans are a partner. ask qatar how much they paid for the meteor.

Nope. Would recommend reading the article.
http://idrw.org/when-india-surprised-russia-by-integrating-brahmos-a-with-sukhoi-30mki/
Sudhir Mishra CEO&MD, BrahMos Aerospace while speaking to Indian media revealed how Russians were surprised when India was able to integrate BrahMos-A Supersonic Cruise missile with Sukhoi-30MKI without taking any help or collaboration with Russian companies.

Russia had asked 250 million $ dollars for integration of Brahmos to Sukhoi-30MKI which Indian negotiation team felt was way too expensive but when repeated round of meetings and negotiations to convince Russians to reduce their price failed, India almost gave up the project but later decided to pursue it locally without help from Russians.

And Astra--
https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...sile-from-su30mki-aircraft/article7015126.ece
The challenging task was carried out by HAL with support from Indian Air Force, DRDO and other agencies.

We are not integrating the Python on MKI anyway. Why did you bring this up?

the brahmos uses a russain software, india manufactures the hardware. the cost of intregation would be for a standard intragation because there is the likely hood of an architechture commonality as the the equipment have the same country of origin.
as for the python, i would have assumed it was on the mki, oop's on my part.

Back in 2002, we had zero MKIs. The same situation with Rafale today. The IAF intends to operate 200+ of them over the next 15 years.

and here we are 16 years later which is obvious. it cant be that much of a piss take.

Astra did enter production recently with first 50 units.Serial production will then follow this initial batch.R-27 you are right is not as advanced as r-77 but it is meant to be launched in pairs.R-27 has 3 different seekers.One semi active radar homing,one active and infrared passive homing.Its actually meant to use the high load of SU-30 mki(12 AAMs in air superiority configuration ) to confuse and overwhelm enemy fighter defenses through multiple launches using different seekers.

See the 4 R-27s in the belly above,along with 4 R-77s and 4 R-73 WVR.Those R-27 are likely carrying 2 types of seekers and will be launched in pairs to increase chances of hit and defeating enemy countermeasures.

it is typical for fighters to launch a duet for bvraam to increase the kill chance. only ir guided missile dont need to be launch in pairs as they have a visual lock on the target. i is worth mentioning the 3 different seekers are not on 1 missile.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

After block3- JFT, F-16 will not be front line fighter of PAF and still JFT have taken many roles of F-16s including patrolling eastern border and responding threats on eastern border. The block-3 AESA radar will even make your Rafales run for their money.

Also in house 5th gen bird is under development along with NG UCAV, so Pakistan will have multiple platforms to deploy NG BVRs.

Wake us up when blk-3 comes up,which would be the first real modern jf-17.Rest are already half-obsolete .And no,putting an AESA in a jf-17 won't make it rafale's equal.Even our jaguar is getting an AESA,and LCA will have it too.Unless huge changes are made in aircraft construction material,shape,electronics and avionics and you somehow get meteor no jf-17 will ever match rafale.

 

[Basel]

Wake us up when blk-3 comes up,which would be the first real modern jf-17.Rest are already half-obsolete .And no,putting an AESA in a jf-17 won't make it rafale's equal.Even our jaguar is getting an AESA,and LCA will have it too.Unless huge changes are made in aircraft construction material,shape,electronics and avionics and you somehow get meteor no jf-17 will ever match rafale.

If NCW fighter jet is obsolete then good luck.

Its not just AESA, its what capabilities it add, JFT AESA will allow BVR engagement at 170km with PL-15 will Tejas do that with its AESA radar? ?

The JFT-B will be able to use UAVs/UCAVs will Tejas be able to do that?

 

[khanasifm]

No set back it was a
No starter to begin with.

Why would West give their key weapon to someone else a non NATO and that too to be added to a Russian system ?? Not sure [emoji848] and is not Russians touting r-77m ??

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

If NCW fighter jet is obsolete then good luck.

Its not just AESA, its what capabilities it add, JFT AESA will allow BVR engagement at 170km with PL-15 will Tejas do that with its AESA radar? ?

The JFT-B will be able to use UAVs/UCAVs will Tejas be able to do that?

All of this is basically - we will have it.Been hearing abt blk-3 for 10 yrs now.First it was blk2 would be a beast,but it turned out to be a dud.Do let me know when JFT-B with its UAV army comes online.
170 km huge missiles are meant for attacking big unmaneuverable targets like awacs or tankers.They are far less effective at that range against fighters.Even from USSR we had the R-37 with 150 -300 km range.Do you see them in frontline fighters of russia?Maximum paper range is just an approx indication,the actual valuable statistic of an AAM is 'the no escape zone'.And its because of its huge no escape zone that meteor is the best aam in the world.Lets see as the AAM even enters service,it might turn out to be good.It might not .Whether china will even allow pakistan access to its latest missiles is another question.The new generation of russian aams are also coming (k-77m)as is astra newer versions for our indigeneous purposes.So we are not worried.There will be threats and there will be countermeasures,its an eternal game.

 

[Basel]

All of this is basically - we will have it.Been hearing abt blk-3 for 10 yrs now.First it was blk2 would be a beast,but it turned out to be a dud.Do let me know when JFT-B with its UAV army comes online.
170 km huge missiles are meant for attacking big unmaneuverable targets like awacs or tankers.They are far less effective at that range against fighters.Even from USSR we had the R-37 with 150 -300 km range.Do you see them in frontline fighters of russia?Maximum paper range is just an approx indication,the actual valuable statistic of an AAM is 'the no escape zone'.And its because of its huge no escape zone that meteor is the best aam in the world.Lets see as the AAM even enters service,it might turn out to be good.It might not .Whether china will even allow pakistan access to its latest missiles is another question.The new generation of russian aams are also coming (k-77m)as is astra newer versions for our indigeneous purposes.So we are not worried.There will be threats and there will be countermeasures,its an eternal game.

There are things we have but you will only know when its time to show them or ear happens.

We Pakistanis are also listening about LCA sine 30 years still its not fielded in numbers still MRCA is not complete, still IAF going for purchase of 100+ fighter since years, so first fix your backyard before pointing fingers at others.

 

[ziaulislam]

one can dream


at least we agree on something


so if small is in the hundreds so what is large thousands?
you do know im talking in the context of aircraft right, not missiles. do note the meteor goes for about £2+ million
and thats 40% more than the latest aim-120

india has habit of including things that are in prototype stage
most never make it to service, in case of india almost none makes it to service

 

[MimophantSlayer]

india has habit of including things that are in prototype stage
most never make it to service, in case of india almost none makes it to service

That's a blatant lie.

Literally everything DRDO attempts is inducted into service at some point.

 

[AyanRay]

india has habit of including things that are in prototype stage
most never make it to service, in case of india almost none makes it to service

Ohh I see. And here I was under the impression that India designs and builds its own frigates, destroyers etc etc. But actually India never inducted any of the PESA AESA, AEWACs radar systems developed in-house. Neither the nuclear submarine nor the SAMs, SLBMs. Arjun and Tejas are not inducted (The IA and IAF are lying when they say they have been inducted and extensively take part in war games). Similarly Sonars, torpedoes for the Navy, spy satellites are all lies.

 

[ni8mare]

Ohh I see. And here I was under the impression that India designs and builds its own frigates, destroyers etc etc. But actually India never inducted any of the PESA AESA, AEWACs radar systems developed in-house. Neither the nuclear submarine nor the SAMs, SLBMs. Arjun and Tejas are not inducted (The IA and IAF are lying when they say they have been inducted and extensively take part in war games). Similarly Sonars, torpedoes for the Navy, spy satellites are all lies.

It's because of the incompetence they face whether its with military hardware or making simple dam or steam boiler. These frustration make them to think low of the other side " If we can't they can't".

Do you really think they don't know the things you have describe above?

And if one rant about JF17, just ask any of them if pakistan is making fire control radar for JF17 , then why they so incompetent to make AESA FCR for the same fighter

 

[randomradio]

the point is 495 missile is no biggie

That's half the Meteor's worldwide orders. And we can double that on our own in a single order.

and here we are 16 years later which is obvious. it cant be that much of a piss take.

So move 16 years ahead and you will see as many as 300 Rafales in India.

 

[Blue Marlin]

That's half the Meteor's worldwide orders. And we can double that on our own in a single order.

if you say soo..........

So move 16 years ahead and you will see as many as 300 Rafales in India.

you have 10 months left for april fools, you need to work on your delivery, its a bit to............ direct

 

[帅的一匹]

Guys you just forget PL15.