Set Kashmir aside, focus on trade

[Spring Onion]

All you can do is whine and cry rather than see the issue pragmatically. This will not take pakistan anywhere. period.

dont worry about us dear.

The humanity Indeed can only cry and whine over Killing of thousands of Innocent Kashmiris at the hands of Indian army.

Which kashmiris are you talking about, what do you know about the Indian side of Kashmir, have you lived there long enough to put forward such claims? You emotions are not the ones that matter, but ground reality does.

Which Kashmris are you killing in Indian Held Kashmir???
Indeed lets accept the ground realities that India is killing Kashmiris and India has occupied Kashmir illegally.

And what was your connection of my ethnicity and likeness for atrocities .. I fail to understand or wait a minute are you trying to pass a racist remark.

dear im not all racist.

Not even close . If you mean certain newspapers in your country , then I am sorry . As far as the international media goes the issue does not even grab headlines, not even close to the lines of east timor.

If you call The indian Media as World Media i cant do anything about it.

Backoff ... you neither have the right to call me a moron nor do you know me enough. If so much emotion blinds your eyes then be it. Whine and cry but who cares. Be pragmatic and learn to accept ground realities.

You said who cares about Kashmir and i said only moroons dont care.
BTW i dont have any liking for to be on your back

Like your country does not do it. Those people have opportunity and its up to use them. I was at UNICEF and the country head EIMAAR BARR quoted saying that India has all the money it has to alleviate poverty and is finally finding out channels to do it effectively. However it is none of your concern. Your argument was about Indians using billion dollar weapons against kashmiris and I ment otherwise.

Indeed India does have enough money to alleviate poverty but still it has billions of Indians who go to bed hungry.

 

[MIG_ACE]

indiapakistanfriendship,
Trust me.Don't argue with Jana about this.The argument will only go around in circles and she will never stop whining. I have seen few people who hate India as much as she does.

 

[relent8]

indiapakistanfriendship,
Trust me.Don't argue with Jana about this.The argument will only go around in circles and she will never stop whining. I have seen few people who hate India as much as she does.

But you mite have seen almost most indians hating Pakistan as much as IndPakFriedshp does, and thats where we'r behind

Well there's wrong in hating india as much as she does, or anyone for that matter.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

dont worry about us dear.

The humanity Indeed can only cry and whine over Killing of thousands of Innocent Kashmiris at the hands of Indian army.

Stop millitancy sponsored across the border and India will pull back from Kashmir and will let it live like any state like the rest of us. So the onus is on Pakistan to pull out jihadis and stop supporting them. This is not a movie where one day the evil empire decided to kill and rape its citizens. you back off and we shall do the same.

Which Kashmris are you killing in Indian Held Kashmir???
Indeed lets accept the ground realities that India is killing Kashmiris and India has occupied Kashmir illegally.

Why should one accept what you have to say. As far as India is concerned it is fighting an insurgency. Propaganda on your side has blinded your eyes. on the same note I can imply that Pakistan is massacring Balochis or NWFP people but then I am sane and wil not do it as it is the internal affairs of your nation like Indian Kashmir is an internal affair.

If you really fell for it then why dont you send troops to chechenya or palestine ..

dear im not all racist.

Thanx.. But I interpreted it be in that way

If you call The indian Media as World Media i cant do anything about it.

Nope BBC does not cover it except duirng ocassional skirmisshes, CNN does not, DW does not, Australlian network does not, NYT, Guardian, Wahington post.. I can name on and on. All these international leading news sources dont seem to have done any seriouse(i repeat serious) coverage over the issue. I have never ever come across short features or documentaries regarding kashmir issue. However I have come across several documentaries relating to Chechenya, Palestine, SL.. ETC.

You said who cares about Kashmir and i said only moroons dont care.
BTW i dont have any liking for to be on your back

And why should you care or I care about the issue. Yes there is a problem and there needs to be a solution. But the solution will require pragmatism, practicallity devoid of any ounce of emotions . I have tamils killed in Srilanka but what can I do and why should I send country men to fight for them. It is their problem and they need to solve it just like we need to solve our problems.

Indeed India does have enough money to alleviate poverty but still it has billions of Indians who go to bed hungry.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for your concern, appriciate it. Proper systems are being tested at various districts to analyse what works and what dosent as far as removing poverty and social evils are concerned.. you will bw amazed to know that UN runs a wide programme where by their mission here in India is not to aid or provide relief but to create analyse and study various models of governance, poverty alleviation, child rights and education etc along with government and help the governmemnt in planning and in their decision making policy.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Bu you mite have seen almost most indians hating Pakistan as much as IndPakFriedshp does, and thats where we'r behind

I am sorry I dont hate you nor do I have a reason to do. Neither have I hurted you personally nor you have done it to me. It is time for us to be pragmatic. Why are we fighting for a piece of land and a group of people .. let us see the larger good and lets us live in peace.

cheers

 

[MIG_ACE]

But you mite have seen almost most indians hating Pakistan as much as IndPakFriedshp does, and thats where we'r behind

Well there's wrong in hating india as much as she does, or anyone for that matter.

When did I say there was anything wrong? If you want to hate India please do so by all means. I was only warning a fellow forum member that he was wasting his time. Is there something wrong in that?

 

[Flintlock]

Jana here says that the Kashmiri separatism has nothing to do with religion.

If that is the case, I wonder why people from Jammu and Ladakh are pro-India?

 

[ImranKhan]

As a person of kashmiri background it pains me to admit to this problem just won't go away. Seems everybody is pussy-footing around the main issue why both countries want to hold on the full Kashmir: Water, tourism and that sweet sweet hydro-electric energy. Call me an Autistic-savant but I think China holds all the chips in the deal, they are planning to divert water going to Pakistan-via India-via-Tibet using 3-gorge dam, and theoretically will be able to divert water useing hydro-channels like the one they are making on neelam river in Pakistan administered Kashmir...so the big question is would China share the gift of life with either,neither,partially or fully

As far as Indians are concerned its our land and not theirs alone .. Let them go if they want afterall azadi is what they want and you seem to be providing it across the border. I am an ethnic Tamil and I dont face any discrimination and I am comfortable to be with the union of India and those Kashmiris willing to be with us are welcome to be with us

Well "indiapakistanfriendship" I would have been SURPRIZED if you said that you feel discriminated, and why should you be? Tamils are one of the most hardworking,bright, enterprising, daring (modern inventors of kamakazi bombing way before Al-Qaeda) that I have meet. In my opinion they are one of the most superior of the ethnic groups of India, they are astutely using the resources of the Indian union to strengthen and enrich the Tamil community, and there is nothing wrong with that, in-fact I salute them for their unified resolve.

I did a thesis on poverty and hunger in India few months ago(Anybody can PM me and I will be glad to share it with them, got an A- on the essay ), Well here is one excrept I will put out from my essay:

-"Statistical data indicates that the main beneficiaries of information technology boom were IT and industry professionals and their families in the southern Indian cities of Bangalore and Chennai which contain most of India’s IT and heavy industry. The residents of these cities comprise the rising rich middle class that are the most visible beneficiaries of the globalization of liberal economics and outsourcing (Indian Department of Economics and Statistics, 2006, para. 14). However literature also suggests this had little or no effect of the majority of Indians. According to World Bank in 2005 around 86.2 percent of Indians are living on the poverty line and 44.2 percent of those are living below poverty line (Van Dijk, 2006, para. 51, table. 04)."

Its a great day to be an Indian if you are Tamil because
"Unfortunately poverty and underdevelopment in India has regional and ethnic dimensions. According to United Nations agency International Fund for Agricultural Development two thirds of India’s population lives in rural areas and three out of four of these individuals live in poverty (United Nations International Fund for Agricultural Development, 2007, para. 03). Furthermore Poverty is deepest among scheduled castes and tribes in the country’s rural areas. India’s poorest people include 50 per cent of members of scheduled tribes and 40 per cent of people in scheduled castes. These individuals are mostly located in India’s eastern regions of Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, Orissa and West Bengal. Not surprisingly these areas also have the most of the fifth of India's population that suffers from chronic hunger (The Hindu online, 2004, para. 05). "

I can also alot of about anti-brhaminsm,Dravidianism, Self-Respect Movement, or the fact that the regionalist-secssionaist like DMK have being democratically elected by Tamils as their representatives since the sixties or the fact the the Tamil-elected officials like Chief Minister C N Annadurai wanted English to be the national language of India instead of Hindi stating "Why do Tamils have to study English for communication with the world and Hindi for communications within India? Do we need a big door for the big dog and a small door for the small dog? I say, let the small dog use the big door too!"

More people interested in reading more about ethnic nationalist politics and race,class dynamic of north-south Indian divide I also recommend a scholarly academic research article that I studied while doing my political-philosophy minor called " The silence of the south and the absence of political philosophy" published in the International Journal of Hindu Studies:

SpringerLink - Journal Article

 

[solid snake]

I see this has resulted in Pakistanis blaming Indians for human rights violations in Kashmir, which have no doubt happened. Pakistanis want India to hold a plebescite in Kashmir. Suppose for a second that they do, the likely result will be either staying with India or going independent. So if they decide to stay with India, will Pakistan give up it's part of Kashmir to India, since the plebescite must be held in the entire former state of Kashmir, which will include Azad Kashmir and the northern areas which we captured in 1947?

If Kashmiris decide to go independent, will Pakistan give up it's part of Kashmir to the new state of Kashmir?

Seeing as how the northern areas form our border with China, I doubt Pakistan will give up it's part of Kashmir, no matter what the result of the plebescite. So it's unfair to expect India to simply give up what it has to Pakistan. That is simply not happening, not without snatching it by force at least, which Pakistan cannot accomplish without the help of China.

So I say we simply forget this whole deal. The 1947 war was a great success for us in hindsight. We won 40% of a state which officially belongs to India. We won territory which forms our border with China, where we built the KK highway which will lead to immense wealth for Pakistan as western China develops. We have the entire green region:

Gaining the rest of Kashmir would be nice, but we should be happy with what we have and live in reality. India is never getting back Aksai Chin, and they know that, and they are not letting the issue stand in the way of their trade with China.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

But you mite have seen almost most indians hating Pakistan as much as IndPakFriedshp does, and thats where we'r behind

Well there's wrong in hating india as much as she does, or anyone for that matter.

Logic should not be left far behind when hating or loving!

That is the crux of the whole issue.

Disagreement is but a part of life, hate is too strong an emotion. It clouds logic!

That is simply not happening, not without snatching it by force at least, which Pakistan cannot accomplish without the help of China.

SS,

With or without assistance from China, taking Kashmir by force is an impossibility.

Likewise, India cannot take the part of Kashmir held by Pakistan.

War in the mountains, and that too in the High Altitude, is very time consuming and difficult. It also allows enough time to readjust and reinforce, leading to a stalemate.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

As a person of kashmiri background it pains me to admit to this problem just won't go away. Seems everybody is pussy-footing around the main issue why both countries want to hold on the full Kashmir: Water, tourism and that sweet sweet hydro-electric energy. Call me an Autistic-savant but I think China holds all the chips in the deal, they are planning to divert water going to Pakistan-via India-via-Tibet using 3-gorge dam, and theoretically will be able to divert water useing hydro-channels like the one they are making on neelam river in Pakistan administered Kashmir...so the big question is would China share the gift of life with either,neither,partially or fully

Theoriticall yes, but one does need to understand the complexities of building a massive hydroelectic project in allmost unhospitable terrain. My friend there is no such thing as free lunch.To expect China to gift you simpley is rather naive. It is in Chinas interest or any vested power to have a simmering conflict between two nations that have immense potentia, so if they provide you with water that you need and the main interest of Kashmir in paksitan looses focus then who atands to loose China maore than anyone else.

Well "indiapakistanfriendship" I would have been SURPRIZED if you said that you feel discriminated, and why should you be? Tamils are one of the most hardworking,bright, enterprising, daring (modern inventors of kamakazi bombing way before Al-Qaeda) that I have meet. In my opinion they are one of the most superior of the ethnic groups of India, they are astutely using the resources of the Indian union to strengthen and enrich the Tamil community, and there is nothing wrong with that, in-fact I salute them for their unified resolve.

I am sorry as an Indian or a human being I dont feel superior to anyone along ethnic lines, yes we are a proud lot but then therein stops or pride, as we dont want arrogance to rule the day. By the way those who invented the suicide bombing were srilankan tamils and not Indian Tamils. We dont even have remote connection with them, not much of mainland tamils have relations in there, they are completely different and their accent of tamil is difficult for us to understand.

-"Statistical data indicates that the main beneficiaries of information technology boom were IT and industry professionals and their families in the southern Indian cities of Bangalore and Chennai which contain most of India’s IT and heavy industry. The residents of these cities comprise the rising rich middle class that are the most visible beneficiaries of the globalization of liberal economics and outsourcing (Indian Department of Economics and Statistics, 2006, para. 14). However literature also suggests this had little or no effect of the majority of Indians. According to World Bank in 2005 around 86.2 percent of Indians are living on the poverty line and 44.2 percent of those are living below poverty line (Van Dijk, 2006, para. 51, table. 04)."

Yes South Indians were to adopt IT first and started towards development. here regional political outfits dont interfere in centre, they are more focussed on attracting investment and increasing the quality of life, also south traditionally had strong emphasis over education and there were several remorm movements in south that helped its cause. In case you like to know more about south India and its economic boom from a person standing in the ground , you can pm me ..

Unfortunately poverty and underdevelopment in India has regional and ethnic dimensions. According to United Nations agency International Fund for Agricultural Development two thirds of India’s population lives in rural areas and three out of four of these individuals live in poverty (United Nations International Fund for Agricultural Development, 2007, para. 03). Furthermore Poverty is deepest among scheduled castes and tribes in the country’s rural areas. India’s poorest people include 50 per cent of members of scheduled tribes and 40 per cent of people in scheduled castes. These individuals are mostly located in India’s eastern regions of Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, Orissa and West Bengal. Not surprisingly these areas also have the most of the fifth of India's population that suffers from chronic hunger (The Hindu online, 2004, para. 05). "

Sadly true my friend. However government along with UN agencies are working assidiously towards understanding various models of reform and poverty alleviation. The problem here in india is not lack of money but lack of proper distribution of wealth. India wll achieve almost a majority of its MDG atleast thats what UNICEF OFIICIALS predicted during my stint there,, however although we can theoritically achieve MDG in education sector, but practically its impossible because although we can achieve mdg there is a backlog of uneducated people. I am optimistic that we will alleviate poverty as soon as possible.

I can also alot of about anti-brhaminsm,Dravidianism, Self-Respect Movement, or the fact that the regionalist-secssionaist like DMK have being democratically elected by Tamils as their representatives since the sixties or the fact the the Tamil-elected officials like Chief Minister C N Annadurai wanted English to be the national language of India instead of Hindi stating "Why do Tamils have to study English for communication with the world and Hindi for communications within India? Do we need a big door for the big dog and a small door for the small dog? I say, let the small dog use the big door too!"

True, isin't is the beauty of India, where each and every group can live according to its wishes and can practise the language they want and be as diverse as possible and chart its own destiny.

I see this has resulted in Pakistanis blaming Indians for human rights violations in Kashmir, which have no doubt happened. Pakistanis want India to hold a plebescite in Kashmir. Suppose for a second that they do, the likely result will be either staying with India or going independent. So if they decide to stay with India, will Pakistan give up it's part of Kashmir to India, since the plebescite must be held in the entire former state of Kashmir, which will include Azad Kashmir and the northern areas which we captured in 1947?

If Kashmiris decide to go independent, will Pakistan give up it's part of Kashmir to the new state of Kashmir?

Seeing as how the northern areas form our border with China, I doubt Pakistan will give up it's part of Kashmir, no matter what the result of the plebescite. So it's unfair to expect India to simply give up what it has to Pakistan. That is simply not happening, not without snatching it by force at least, which Pakistan cannot accomplish without the help of China.

A very good post, however what I fail to understand is that how can Chinese assistance gain you Kashmir. I am sure Chinese already have their hands full and why is that every time Pakistan goes to war or takes a decision should you include Chinese in it. May be the Chinese can help you in remarming or even if they decide to jump in directly I fail to see how they can wrest Kashmir as Salim sir says it is impossible t do it across high altitude mountains and jagged terrrain.

Gaining the rest of Kashmir would be nice, but we should be happy with what we have and live in reality. India is never getting back Aksai Chin, and they know that, and they are not letting the issue stand in the way of their trade with China.

A logical, pragmatic and a mature pos..

cheers

 

[solid snake]

SS,

With or without assistance from China, taking Kashmir by force is an impossibility.

Likewise, India cannot take the part of Kashmir held by Pakistan.

War in the mountains, and that too in the High Altitude, is very time consuming and difficult. It also allows enough time to readjust and reinforce, leading to a stalemate.

A very good post, however what I fail to understand is that how can Chinese assistance gain you Kashmir. I am sure Chinese already have their hands full and why is that every time Pakistan goes to war or takes a decision should you include Chinese in it. May be the Chinese can help you in remarming or even if they decide to jump in directly I fail to see how they can wrest Kashmir as Salim sir says it is impossible t do it across high altitude mountains and jagged terrrain.

A logical, pragmatic and a mature pos..

cheers

Well, I agree with you both that war is very unlikely anytime soon. Not even in the next 50-75 years perhaps will we dare to fight a war, there is simply too much to lose for all 3 countries.

And the reason I mentioned China is because there is this widespread belief that the day China achieves parity or superiority over the US, it will attack Taiwan, which will bring in the US, and India will assist the US. Pakistan will assist China, and thus WWIII might begin.

This is of course a theory, and the US might simply choose to ignore Taiwan or China may never ever attack Taiwan.

Whatever happens, at the moment the main focus of all 3 countries should be economic development and all factors curtailing growth in the region must be removed.

 

[MOSABJA]

MR.INDIA PAKISTAN FRIENDSHIP.

I dont understand how the Chinese 3 Gorge dam is going to stop the flow of water in pakistan .

Its built on the Yangtze river .Out of the 5 rivers that come into Pakistan i.e INDUS,CHENAB,JHELUM,RAVI,SUTLEJ.

Indus and Sutlej come from China.

Out of them SUtlej has been given to india under Indus water treaty.

So now the only Pakistani river coming from China is Indus.
That too has to pass through Indian kashmir to reach pakistan.
I dont think they are going to build any project on Indus to get few MAF of water and lose a strategic partner like Pakistan which can provide them a safe,short trade route and access to energy and access to 4 largest coal reserves.


BUT INDIAN WATERS DO COME FROM TIBET.

Ghaghara a tributary of Ganga comes from Tibet.
Gandaki also Gangas tributary also comes from Tibet.Its part Trisuli river.
Brahma putra comes from China.
Sutlej tooo.
Kosi river also comes from Tibet.


As far as Pakistani waters are concerned.Problem with Kashmir is that Jhelum originates in kashmir.Where as Indus and Chenab have to pass through it.

I dont see any change in status quo of kashmir in any near future.

More over situation for pakistan is going to be more dangerous as India is building Kishenganga,Wullar and Baglihar.

the only alternative for Pakistan may not be WAR/

But China may help pakistan in diverting Indus and sutlej in such a way that they dont have to pass through india and india built its dams on it.
More over China can help out pakistan if India BREAKS INDUS WATER TREATY by diverting waters from TIBET.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

But China may help pakistan in diverting Indus and sutlej in such a way that they dont have to pass through india and india built its dams on it.

Have you seen the terrain through which the Indus passes through China?

Is it feasible?

 

[Neo]

Impossible, just look at the terrain.



Btw, Sutlej also runs thru IoC.