Serving Two Masters: Shariah Law and the Secular State

[The Clarifier]

Agreed!---------

 

[jahangeer yousaf]

i believe my posts were not off topic ........ i quoted leaders of my countries anywayz .........i was not arguing earlier neither now .......

but still shariah has to be deployed if we dont then ALLAH will .......
may ALLAH bless pakistan with shariah law AMEEN

 

[Subramanian]

The very fabric of Muslim society shows that Secularism will not work for us...

There are a few reasons for this...

Firstly... The reason why Secularism has worked for the west is because their religion i.e Christianity was oppressing the masses in the name of God... The Church history is proof of this with brutality such as burning people on the cross for the simple act like translating the bible into English!!!

For Muslims, our golden age was when we were living under the Caliphate... We have no problems with science and technology because Islam and specially the Quran itself invites mankind to ponder and think on nature (which is the first step of science i.e observation)... Moreover if history is proof we have led the world of science and technology and contributed tremendously to the fields of knowledge that has helped mankind... Its a different matter that with the decline in the level of thinking for Muslims, we left that important function in the world and lost all leadership after having the Ottoman state destroyed by the colonialists and traitors such as the highway robbers like Ibn Saud under the supervision of Lawrence of Arabia... Moreover Islam has rules in detail about a functioning society be it economics, ruling, justice, foreign policy of the state whereas all other religions are devoid of such systems... so one can be very happy to have a personal Jesus and deal with interest based transactions... but we as Muslims cannot do this (at least those who know how serious the matter of usury is in our ideology)... this is why secularism is going to fail in our society...

I should add that the influence of revival of Islam is being felt across the world today... one of the reasons why the European countries are banning certain clothing and insulting and mocking our prophet is because they are acutely aware of their own problems and cannot tolerate Islam as a solution to their problems... Talk about an interest rate of 0.1 percent LOL

2. Secondly... and TFaz's comment highlights this... in the absence of an enlightened Islamic system, we can talk about these things for years yet will not have a picture in our minds because unless we as Muslims show an example to the world, they will not understand it... Yesterday a lady who became a Muslim after discussing different matters of Islam from me wrote to me from Canada saying that she felt so frustrated because her society is so ignorant about Islam... and its interesting because we as Muslims are also very ignorant of our deen... We have the emotions but we seldom have the thinking that is necessary for our revival...

i like the zero interest lending scheme of islamic banking and it is a sureshot way to fight inflation and keeps the products and services at real value.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

i like the zero interest lending scheme of islamic banking and it is a sureshot way to fight inflation and keeps the products and services at real value.

yes but the true wonders of the Islamic economics will be seen when a complete system of Islamic economics is implemented...

This may also interest you Sub...

Dr M: Gold backing of currency doesn't make it Islamic

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

Please see

if you wish to understand the issue. Please note also that neither he nor any other scholar is right about everything they say, hence they and their audience say And Allah knows best.

 

[Ahmad]

can somebody gives me a brief information about interest free money lending?

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

my dear brothers ..... most of us are looking confused about shariah.....
shariah law mean any law formulated in light of Quran and Sunnah ............
so Quran is complete so is sunnah so any thing compatible with them is ok but if incompatible then haram and bidat........
and as a muslim one must be sure that Islam is complete religion and is represent and guide in all walks of life ........ there is no place for secularism in islam ..
actually we have deviated from pure spirit of islam thats why we are confused and that deviation started in 14th and 15th century and achived peaks in Akbars era and also in Ottoman empire ... 1st we need to remove impurities nad then again formulate in light of quran and sunnah ........

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

and islamic laws are only solution of our ills ............. and as muslim we ought to firmly belive in it............

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

can somebody gives me a brief information about interest free money lending?

The name is descriptive! You lend me money, I repay you the same amount. If in the meantime a financial crisis hits and money devalues, I still pay you back the original amount, not more, since it would have devalued irrespective of whether you or I held the sum.

The caveat is, you are not prescient of any increase OR decrease in the value of the money. In a country like Pakistan, where the value of money quasi-perpetually monotonically decreases, the fuqahaa would decide (or would have decided) whether the loss to the lender is to be compensated. Allaah knows best.

This system is called qarze Hasana, a term I'd like to translates to 'helping out a brother'. Loans in the Islamic philosophy are not made for the end of making money on them, but to keep the society holistically economically-healthy by helping out its struggling members or sectors.

I'm a layperson in these matters, so don't take these statements as factual regulations. Thanks.

 

[ajpirzada]

Now what... AJ now the whole game begins... Now we get bound by the laws of islam... We dont just verbally acknowledge (like we do in Pakistan) and do nothing to implement the rules that are well known and understood...

Now we dont allow dacoits to sit in the parliament and make laws stipulating that its ok to be Mr 110 percent...

Now we put such people in jail... as for Zardari even the secularists here would agree with me... Lets chop his hand off

well even the current law does not allow a corrupt to go unpunished. problem comes when we get to implementing any such law. and similar problem will be there when the same shariah law will have to be implemented by people lik us.

again ill repeat myself..... effectiveness of each law depends on the wisdom of people implementing it. and we lack this wisdom in our leadership

 

[ajpirzada]

can somebody gives me a brief information about interest free money lending?

i borrow money off you to buy a car.....
we both decide the rent of a car which ill be paying you.....
i buy the car and start paying you rent untill i return all the money.....

the only benefit is that if i delay one payment, i wont have to pay interest on the delayed payment. in other words there wont be any compound interest.


islamic principle behind interest free lending is that you dont ask for more than what you gave (lent). similarly you do not give back less than what you borrowed.

bec of this people tend to say that taking or charging interest is not allowed in islam.

but my argument is slightly different. lets say you give me 100 dollars for one year. after one year i give you back your 100 dollars. But its actual value will only be lets say 92 dollars due to 8% of assumed inflation.
now according to the islamic principle, i am not allowed to give you back less than what i took. therefore i should give you back 108 dollars to make sure that you dont loose anything in terms of inflation.
this would imply that interest rate of less than or equal to inflation should be allowed.
(i do not propagate this view and consider it good only for discussion)

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

well even the current law does not allow a corrupt to go unpunished. problem comes when we get to implementing any such law. and similar problem will be there when the same shariah law will have to be implemented by people lik us.

again ill repeat myself..... effectiveness of each law depends on the wisdom of people implementing it. and we lack this wisdom in our leadership

I agree... and this is why we need a change of both leadership and the system... not just one or the other...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

i borrow money off you to buy a car.....
we both decide the rent of a car which ill be paying you.....
i buy the car and start paying you rent untill i return all the money.....

the only benefit is that if i delay one payment, i wont have to pay interest on the delayed payment. in other words there wont be any compound interest.


islamic principle behind interest free lending is that you dont ask for more than what you gave (lent). similarly you do not give back less than what you borrowed.

bec of this people tend to say that taking or charging interest is not allowed in islam.

but my argument is slightly different. lets say you give me 100 dollars for one year. after one year i give you back your 100 dollars. But its actual value will only be lets say 92 dollars due to 8% of assumed inflation.
now according to the islamic principle, i am not allowed to give you back less than what i took. therefore i should give you back 108 dollars to make sure that you dont loose anything in terms of inflation.
this would imply that interest rate of less than or equal to inflation should be allowed.
(i do not propagate this view and consider it good only for discussion)

We need to consider a few things when we discuss issues such as interest free lending etc... I m saying this because there has been some discussion on the issue since I last checked this thread and Ahmed also asked this question about it...

1. Such a system cannot work in isolation of other Islamic systems... Just like one cannot use a part made for a car in a fighter jet... An interest free system is only possible when the whole system of operation of not just economy but also ruling/judiciary/social system/education/foreign policy changes...

It makes no sense that you and I stop dealing in interest free transactions (which I m sure many of us do already anyway) and the state is loaning us to death by begging the IMF/World Bank etc...

2. As for Aj's point... This problem goes away when you adopt the gold/silver currency with a standard weight and unit in the state... Gold/Silver retain their value for most purposes over periods of time and dont suffer from inflation in the manner that fiat currency does...

3. As for nowadays... this question was actually asked at a seminar we hosted back in 2006 at University of Peshawar and the answer that came was that instead of dealing with currency like the dollar, loan contract should be made in a currency that is less influenced by inflation... the issue should be discussed between the parties and the payment made back at its time in the same currency... I think someone who loans with the intent of helping a brother in need, its highly unlikely that he would then start demanding an extra 8 dollars after the year for every dollar just because the price of the dollar has gone down... so its best to consider such things before you take or give loans...

4. Lastly... The prophet saw once said and I m translating the hadith that there will be a time that no one will be able to escape usury and even when someone is very careful, its dust will touch his feet... We live in such times for certain...

 

[Ahmad]

i borrow money off you to buy a car.....
we both decide the rent of a car which ill be paying you.....
i buy the car and start paying you rent untill i return all the money.....

the only benefit is that if i delay one payment, i wont have to pay interest on the delayed payment. in other words there wont be any compound interest.


islamic principle behind interest free lending is that you dont ask for more than what you gave (lent). similarly you do not give back less than what you borrowed.

bec of this people tend to say that taking or charging interest is not allowed in islam.

but my argument is slightly different. lets say you give me 100 dollars for one year. after one year i give you back your 100 dollars. But its actual value will only be lets say 92 dollars due to 8% of assumed inflation.
now according to the islamic principle, i am not allowed to give you back less than what i took. therefore i should give you back 108 dollars to make sure that you dont loose anything in terms of inflation.
this would imply that interest rate of less than or equal to inflation should be allowed.
(i do not propagate this view and consider it good only for discussion)

thanks for the information, the issue of inflation and money losing its value overtime was my main question.

if somebody wants to buy a house, how does it work with that?

 

[greatsequence]

thanks for the information, the issue of inflation and money losing its value overtime was my main question.

if somebody wants to buy a house, how does it work with that?

This is how it is done in most of the cases. For example you want to buy a house worth 100 dollars but you have 50. You go to the bank they buy the house for you and will have 50% share of the house. So now if you live in the house you are suppose to pay the rent to the bank because the house does not belong to you 100%. After some time you manage to pay back some loan so now your share is 60% and the share of the bank is 40% so you pay the rent according to the share and it goes on.

Experts are working on different solutions though.