Serving Two Masters: Shariah Law and the Secular State

[Karachiite]

So who is going to be the Ameer of Pakistan? Zardari or Nawaz or some guy from JI?

In these times its better to go secular. Religion should have no role in Politics.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

i didnt get this, what you said was a bit too complicated for me to understand? as far as i remeber, i have always been told that 2 women is equal one man to qualify to be a witness.

Some interesting comments here... I missed this whole discussion for a good few days now it seems...

What you have been told is wrong... 2 women being equal to one man is only in certain cases not all of them...

 

[silent hawk]

So who is going to be the Ameer of Pakistan? Zardari or Nawaz or some guy from JI?

In these times its better to go secular. Religion should have no role in Politics.

This view depicts the dilemma faced by mankind. If we look at mankinds history we shall see many instances where man tried to implement his own system. Some tried to create a heaven on earth. Others created great and glamourous civilizations. The pyramids in Eygpt are testimony to the great civilization of the Pharohs. What these civilizations lacked was inner peace and tranquility.

On the other hand there are Sharia based civilizations where you could not find anyone to give Zakat. Those civilizations were peaceful but they were not glamourous.

Today we live in a capatalist era so the view expressed seems rational, but look at the unrest mankind is in. Is this glamorous system what we really want?

So what is better peace or glamour. You can't have both therin lies the dilemma

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

How the golden days are coming to an end? more explanations would be appreciated. the last bust in the uk was 3 decades ago and this bust is slowly coming to an end. you can see that they had strong economy for the last 25-30 years and now economic problems for 2 years and they are already out of red area.



what can be the alternative? dont forget that the chineese success was due to its adoption of capitalism.



if you mean we will also have the good days in the future then i am not so sure about it. you dont know what might happen in the next 7-8 hundred years, but for the near future there is no light in the tunnel for now or even few 100 years.

This would require ages to explain to you... but I ll narrow it down to a few points that would be obvious to you considering you are living in Cardiff...

Do you know how many people actually own their houses in the west? The problem with the west is that it measures economic prosperity in terms of GDP... whereas for Muslims our yardstick is to see if everyone has his basic needs met... i.e food, clothing and shelter...

By that measure alone, the majority of people in the west are enslaved to the Capitalist system that prohibits ownership of a basic need i.e a house until the mortgage is paid...

You do yourself a huge injustice comparing Afghanistan with the UK... Astan has never tasted an Islamic system... Bench marks for an Islamic state are very high and unless you actually see such a system in operation, you will not be able to realize its effectiveness and beauty... the only other way to analyze it would be to study economics and how money works... then study some books on the economic system of Islam and how it differs from Capitalism...

The golden age for the west is certainly coming to an end... They are desperately trying to generate some hope in their people by stating things like 1 percent increase in their GDP and crappy bench marks like these... The problems that they face are so huge that at times I have heard complete silence when I start discussing economics with people and intellectuals here... They know that they have no capital left and here in Europe they dont want a repeat of the same mistake of the dollar by devaluing a fiat currency to the extent that they have to plan wars against their rivals who own that wealth due to unpaid loans and treasury bonds... or by printing more money...

As I said, this would be very hard to see for you if you keep looking at these issues from one side only...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

This view depicts the dilemma faced by mankind. If we look at mankinds history we shall see many instances where man tried to implement his own system. Some tried to create a heaven on earth. Others created great and glamourous civilizations. The pyramids in Eygpt are testimony to the great civilization of the Pharohs. What these civilizations lacked was inner peace and tranquility.

On the other hand there are Sharia based civilizations where you could not find anyone to give Zakat. Those civilizations were peaceful but they were not glamourous.

Today we live in a capatalist era so the view expressed seems rational, but look at the unrest mankind is in. Is this glamorous system what we really want?

So what is better peace or glamour. You can't have both therin lies the dilemma

Rather... I wont sing praises of Capitalism until I own a sea cruiser and a Ferrari... and a helicopter also... lol

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Show me! Is that too much to ask?


Is Shariah man made law or Law made by God? Is it amenable to change or not?

Shariah is arabic for legislation and in Islam it is law given to man by God...

It cannot change...

For new problems that emerge as mankind progresses in science and technology however a process of ijtihad can be done to derive new laws...

So in short (Imam Abu Hanifa has more categories for this btw)...

Shariah gives you...

Fard. Obligations
Mundoob. Recommendations
Mubah. Permissible
Mukrooh. Disliked
Haram. Forbidden

The state or government only intervenes when a person is in open breach of the forbidden... The whole system runs without anything forbidden involved in it... like for example... riba based transactions do not take place...

The obligations are automatically met by Muslims anyway... like giving Zakat and fasting in Ramadhan...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

This would require ages to explain to you... but I ll narrow it down to a few points that would be obvious to you considering you are living in Cardiff...

Do you know how many people actually own their houses in the west? The problem with the west is that it measures economic prosperity in terms of GDP... whereas for Muslims our yardstick is to see if everyone has his basic needs met... i.e food, clothing and shelter...

By that measure alone, the majority of people in the west are enslaved to the Capitalist system that prohibits ownership of a basic need i.e a house until the mortgage is paid...

You do yourself a huge injustice comparing Afghanistan with the UK... Astan has never tasted an Islamic system... Bench marks for an Islamic state are very high and unless you actually see such a system in operation, you will not be able to realize its effectiveness and beauty... the only other way to analyze it would be to study economics and how money works... then study some books on the economic system of Islam and how it differs from Capitalism...

The golden age for the west is certainly coming to an end... They are desperately trying to generate some hope in their people by stating things like 1 percent increase in their GDP and crappy bench marks like these... The problems that they face are so huge that at times I have heard complete silence when I start discussing economics with people and intellectuals here... They know that they have no capital left and here in Europe they dont want a repeat of the same mistake of the dollar by devaluing a fiat currency to the extent that they have to plan wars against their rivals who own that wealth due to unpaid loans and treasury bonds... or by printing more money...

As I said, this would be very hard to see for you if you keep looking at these issues from one side only...

I should add that after basic needs are met... the person is then free to get as many luxury needs that he wants... there is no prohibition for that in Islam... If you can afford it... go for it... but the basic needs have to be provided for everyone...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Ahmed.

China's development has a lot to do with militarization of industry... As I understand that shall also happen in the Islamic State... Manufacturing is the way to go if you want prosperity for all...

 

[Stumper]

...They know that they have no capital left and here in Europe they dont want a repeat of the same mistake of the dollar by devaluing a fiat currency to the extent that they have to plan wars against their rivals who own that wealth due to unpaid loans and treasury bonds... or by printing more money...

MBQ: The problems started with the housing bubble burst. Yes, we all have our usual people to blame. I have blamed likes of Lippmann and Phil Gramm. Lippmann was the architect of CDS. And Mr.Gramm allowed such OTC to flourish.

I get what you are referring to in Europe. I share similar view.

 

[muse]

Shariah is arabic for legislation and in Islam it is law given to man by God...

It cannot change...

For new problems that emerge as mankind progresses in science and technology however a process of ijtihad can be done to derive new laws...

So in short (Imam Abu Hanifa has more categories for this btw)...

Shariah gives you...

Fard. Obligations
Mundoob. Recommendations
Mubah. Permissible
Mukrooh. Disliked
Haram. Forbidden

The state or government only intervenes when a person is in open breach of the forbidden... The whole system runs without anything forbidden involved in it... like for example... riba based transactions do not take place...

The obligations are automatically met by Muslims anyway... like giving Zakat and fasting in Ramadhan...

So Ijtihad can Change Shariah, which of course cannot change??

Are you familiar with the notion of Utopia? In particular I find the role of change fascinating, I hope you will also comment of this theme -- what I find fascinating is Utopia requires the arrest of Change, it requires the arrest of the agents of change -- See since our understanding of the religious sciences and legislation is complete, why do we need ijtihad????

By admitting Ijtihad, we will have admitted that there exists something that changes and evolves -- and yet we have affirmed that Shariah cannot change that it is made by God -- and therefore by logic, we are suggesting that God is not Omniscient, a blasphemy, that Shariah as relgious science and legislation is incomplete and therefore cannot possibly be the word of God --- All of this because we did not arrest Change, did not arrest the agents of Change -- If only the Catholic Church had realized this.

What are your thoughts with regard to the need to arrest change?

 

[araz]

Shariah Law cannot work in the 21st century. Secularism is the way to go!

Shabash bachay!!! And the Quran which says that muslims CANNOT succeed without FULL imposition of the dictates of Quran and Sunnah is incorrect in your opinion!!Naozo Billah.
Bhai it is not Allahs laws that are defective, it is our lack of conviction and belief in Allah SWT and his laws and dictates which needs to be reviewed. Other wise Allah SWT would not have said"Al youm a akmalto lakum deen o kum(And toay we have completed your way of life for you".
Araz

 

[araz]

I know enough about shariah law and enough to determine it wont work in the current times. Saudi Arabia is a great example of that.

Another nugget of wisdom. Choose for yourself a corrupt, utterly immoral set of leaders who impose their own version of Islam to suit therir own petty needs and quote it as a shinning example of Islam .
Bhai true islamic society does not exisat in any state of the world today. Saudis merely pay lip service to some islamic laws because if true islamiclaws were imposed half the royalty(if not all) would be having their heads chopped off after the friday prayers.
Araz

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

So Ijtihad can Change Shariah, which of course cannot change??

Are you familiar with the notion of Utopia? In particular I find the role of change fascinating, I hope you will also comment of this theme -- what I find fascinating is Utopia requires the arrest of Change, it requires the arrest of the agents of change -- See since our understanding of the religious sciences and legislation is complete, why do we need ijtihad????

By admitting Ijtihad, we will have admitted that there exists something that changes and evolves -- and yet we have affirmed that Shariah cannot change that it is made by God -- and therefore by logic, we are suggesting that God is not Omniscient, a blasphemy, that Shariah as relgious science and legislation is incomplete and therefore cannot possibly be the word of God --- All of this because we did not arrest Change, did not arrest the agents of Change -- If only the Catholic Church had realized this.

What are your thoughts with regard to the need to arrest change?

Good questions and many thanks for the discussion... Something to keep my brain active and feel joy!!!

There is something we need to be very careful about... An Islamic State sometimes brings in our minds a Utopian society... This is a very wrong impression... There is a reason to consider this...

Even though we Muslims believe that Allah has sent laws to us... we also know that it is humans who will then apply these laws... and because humans have the weakness of making errors... the Islamic State cannot be a Utopia... Even in the times of Sahabah there were numerous problems within the Islamic State... however they used to think about the issues facing them and with mutual discussion of the Quran and Sunnah arrive at solutions to their problems... The Ameer used to have the final say and Muslims would then implement those solutions... I m sure you know some examples of the problems that faced the Sahabah after the passing away of Hazrat Muhammad saw... So this should always be considered...

Secondly... Ijtihaad is for matters where people are unable to find a rule about an issue... I ll give you an example... With science and technology we have now the ability to Clone biological organisms... Now the Quran does not say that you can or cannot clone animals... and what about Human cloning... for such questions then the process of ijtihaad was applied and rules were derived from the Quran and Sunnah... If you want to read more you can refer to the ijtihaad about cloning of a scholar by the name of Abdul Qadeem...

However what I mean by Shariah cannot change.... is the fact that Namaz and Roza and Zakat shall always be Fard on Muslims, Riba shall always be Haram... etc

No matter how great a man may be in his achievements or character... He cannot stand up and say... Right folks... from today I am abolishing Jihad...

Hope this is clear enough...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Another nugget of wisdom. Choose for yourself a corrupt, utterly immoral set of leaders who impose their own version of Islam to suit therir own petty needs and quote it as a shinning example of Islam .
Bhai true islamic society does not exisat in any state of the world today. Saudis merely pay lip service to some islamic laws because if true islamiclaws were imposed half the royalty(if not all) would be having their heads chopped off after the friday prayers.
Araz

Allah Akbar... The believers hearts beat together!!!!

 

[nightcrawler]

@muse


Again by updating Shariah we not at all are challenging Gods Will in any way!!

and therefore by logic, we are suggesting that God is not Omniscient, a blasphemy, that Shariah as relgious science and legislation is incomplete and therefore cannot possibly be the word of God

Rather by logic it means that that God doesnt want people to stop thinking!!
As Iqbal rightly said

"God isn't a dead equation"

If you read Quran look here"...signs for the people who ponder.."; it emphasizes that God wants us to explore something Muslims are not doing rather same job is done by Discovery Channel(people who ponder not necessarily believers!!)
I dont want to make Islam much difficult just is simple that one must updqate Laws(Shariah) so as to make it assimilated in any given time/space with the notion of helping humanity at its utmost...Deisions may therfore taken by human beings maynt be perfect (even after Ijtihad) but yet the intention must be same...for humanity. This humanity concept sure will be applicable/accepted even by atheist.