sohailbutt1987
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Here goes the rafale deal!
Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked
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The SC
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According to The Australian, pretty much the entire combat capabilities have been compromised. Here is just a sampler:
In brief and ccording to the Aussies, the entire combat capabilities of the subs have been compromised!
SmilingBuddha
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All you folks are gems, twitter was trending scorpene leaks all day 
.
Thank god we have so many sane posters to put our minds in ease. French are in a bit of trouble, this is a great time to hold hands and further improve confidence in our relations.Too bad most journos in rest of India don't even come close to folks here.
I feel the french are having a pretty bad year with all the attacks, let's not make it any worse for them.
.Thank god we have so many sane posters to put our minds in ease. French are in a bit of trouble, this is a great time to hold hands and further improve confidence in our relations.Too bad most journos in rest of India don't even come close to folks here.
I feel the french are having a pretty bad year with all the attacks, let's not make it any worse for them.
PARIKRAMA
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Leaked documents on Scorpène-class submarine and its implication on the Indian Navy
Suresh Bangara Aug 24, 2016 23:03 IST
Manohar Parrikar undocked the fully-fitted, first of its class, Project 75 submarine. It is scheduled to be commissioned in September 2016 after mandatory sea trials. The project, as per the contract with the French shipbuilders DCNS, had already suffered many slippages in delivery schedules and (in naval parlance) is astern of the original intent of expeditious delivery to address the force-level shortages of diesel-electric submarines.
The earlier attempt at Mazagaon Docks to build the German origin, state-of-the-art submarine – designed by HDW – had to be terminated in the late 1980s owing to the allegation of corruption in the deal. The Indian Navy was deprived of a well-established production line when the political decision, more of a knee-jerk reaction, was taken to terminate it. The costly investment in infrastructure and technical manpower was thus wasted. The opportunity cost of terminating this prestigious project can be best summed up with the idiom, "cut off your nose to spite your face" because the cost was exorbitant, to put it mildly.
Representational image. Reuters
Even though the Soviets stepped in to supply the EKM submarines to bolster the depleting force levels, a 30-year build programme which was approved at the end of 1990s was to ensure that our build capacity was augmented by creating the necessary infrastructure and technical manpower in two indigenous yards. Inordinate delays in executing the plan resulted in Mazagaon Docks speeding up the construction of much-delayed Scorpene. The other is yet to take off.
This is the backdrop against which the today's leaked documents need to be viewed.
The Australian newspaper which broke the story of the leak has carefully redacted the sensitive data contained in the leaked documents, keeping in mind the advice of military and legal experts. A few pages sourced by Firstpost confirm that the redaction has been professionally carried out. Whether it covers the whole document of over 20,000 pages is yet to be ascertained. Responsible and ethical reportage makes it incumbent on newspapers to blank out those parts which might otherwise have undesirable geopolitical implications. Australia too is on the threshold of building submarines with similar assistance. They ought to know the implications of this action.
With regards to the sensitive data, acoustic signatures and 'cavitation appearance' are indeed closely-guarded secrets with the shipbuilder being its sole custodian. The builder creates a data bank based on simulated and empirical studies which are carried out over a long duration. The customer, in turn, can hold him accountable for such data that needs to be proved during sea trials. Hence the actually recorded and analysed data during sea trials would be more valuable than what is stated in documents. Tactically, a submarine has many options to deceive sonars by masking its radiated noise. Hence the impact of such a disclosure (authentic or not) depends on the quality of submarining. Indian submariners have decades of experience on both Western and Eastern origin submarines.
As far as the timing of this leak is concerned, the competitors of the second line of production are the biggest gainers. It means billions of dollars worth of business at a time when both economy and employment are at a critical stage. It is not that the defence ministry would terminate orders on DCNS, which would be another folly of even greater proportions if they do, but the second line of production is round the corner. Builders from East and West are possibly salivating on the quantum of order.
The very nature of this leak of over 22,000 pages makes it amenable to hacking. Considering that we are not a fully-wired society, it is unlikely that any single in-house source would have all such data on a single but networked computer. This could have also been hacked from those original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) in Europe who were associated with this project. We can at best speculate at this stage.
Is it critical for operations? Most of the pages, as would be the case in any documentation, would consist of data which is common to all builders. With the operational profile being common to all submarines, it is likely that factors related to the detection of the submarine from ship, airborne or a hunter-killer submarine, are critical to operations. But this is the raison d'être of the submarine arm. Experienced submariners know how to avoid detection.
Furthermore, the data on weapons, whether torpedoes or missiles, are well known to all submariners. The greatest advantage that we have is that our submariners have for decades operated both Western and Eastern origin submarines and have learnt to innovate when required.
Recent reports suggest that the choice of torpedoes, which is the primary weapon, has not been finalised. In the existing case, it has turned out to be an advantage as the torpedoes are the main weapon of submarines and this leaked document pertains to discussions held in 2011.
The navy needs more submarines to address the depletion of conventional units. Delays caused by events like these ought not to result in further reduction in force levels.
Parikkar's statement this morning is noteworthy for its sobrie
http://www.firstpost.com/india/leak...s-implication-on-the-indian-navy-2974788.html
++ and this
'Project 75 Has Been Leaked': The Night Navy Discovered Scorpene News
All India | Written by Sudhi Ranjan Sen | Updated: August 24, 201
NEW DELHI: It was midnight and the phone of senior Navy officer posted at the Naval Headquarters wouldn't stop ringing. "The Australian has published a report claiming details of Project 75 (the official name for the submarine project) have been leaked," the caller said.
Minutes later, after the report was read on phone, the Chief of Navy Staff Admiral Sunil Lanba was informed.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, who was simultaneously informed by separate channels, immediately asked the Navy for a damage assessment and the possible place of the leak.
This morning Mr Parrikar told reporters "We knew about this last night". But what he left unsaid was the flurry of activity that took place through the night.
Within an hour, all hands were at the deck at the South Delhi office from where Project 75 is monitored.
A section of officers were pouring over the original document of the Scorpene submarine and comparing them with the ones put out by The Australian. Others were tasked to check which officers had accessed the document and where the documents had moved to look for possible place of leak.
Simultaneously, the cyber experts of the Indian Navy - considered one of the best - stationed across the nation were on a dual job: Looking for traces of leak from computers in India and the cyber trail of the documents put out by the newspaper.
In Mumbai, a similar exercise was underway at the Mazagaon docks - the shipyard constructing the submarines.
The multiple checks ran through the night. In the morning, bleary-eyed officers were allowed to go home, shower and shave.
Within the hour, they were back at their desks.
The initial investigation report, short and factual, was placed before the Defence Minister - who was in his office by 10 am after attending a function despite being up till 4 in the morning.
A meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security -the highest body in the country headed by the Prime Minister, which decides on security issues - was expected to take up the issue by afternoon.
As Mr Parrikar left for the CCS, he asked the Navy to issue the first official communication, which said documents had not leaked from India. The cyber experts who had worked through the night, told the ministry that the cyber trail of the leaked papers didn't originate from India.
Soon after he returned from the CCS meeting, the Chief of Naval Staff again briefed Mr Parrikar. It was a longer briefing -- on the possible fallouts of the leak.
The Navy's conclusion did not change from the initial assessment it had given the Ministry.
Mr Parrikar was told that India had signed the deal with M/s Aramis and not DCNS. M/s Armaris was bought by DCNS subsequently. The leaked documents showed they were from DCNS. The minister was also told that the specifications in the leaked documents didn't match.
"The basic shape, structure (of the submarines) like its height etc remains the same, but several modifications are made to suit our requirements. To put it in simple terms, the computer programme Windows has some basic similarities but Windows of 2007 and 2010 differ hugely," a senior officer associated with the exercise told NDTV.
By late evening, Mr Parrikar and the Navy sat down again. The Navy reiterated that all checks pointed to an overseas leak and the damage, if any, was minimal. The Minister asked the Navy to shoot a query to the French manufacturer DCNS to ascertain the leak and come back to India.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/proj...corpene-news-1449914?pfrom=home-lateststories
+++
Nice.. so finally after all the mockery for last 24 hours slowly sanity is returning.. Interestingly, most of the points are here in this thread..
It shows We as a country need dedicated Defence Reporters who can understand, research and at least not get colored so easily..
This statement makes the point i tried making all through yesterday night..
The navy needs more submarines to address the depletion of conventional units. Delays caused by events like these ought not to result in further reduction in force levels.
thankfully its finally spoken by our media
Suresh Bangara Aug 24, 2016 23:03 IST
Manohar Parrikar undocked the fully-fitted, first of its class, Project 75 submarine. It is scheduled to be commissioned in September 2016 after mandatory sea trials. The project, as per the contract with the French shipbuilders DCNS, had already suffered many slippages in delivery schedules and (in naval parlance) is astern of the original intent of expeditious delivery to address the force-level shortages of diesel-electric submarines.
The earlier attempt at Mazagaon Docks to build the German origin, state-of-the-art submarine – designed by HDW – had to be terminated in the late 1980s owing to the allegation of corruption in the deal. The Indian Navy was deprived of a well-established production line when the political decision, more of a knee-jerk reaction, was taken to terminate it. The costly investment in infrastructure and technical manpower was thus wasted. The opportunity cost of terminating this prestigious project can be best summed up with the idiom, "cut off your nose to spite your face" because the cost was exorbitant, to put it mildly.
Representational image. Reuters
Even though the Soviets stepped in to supply the EKM submarines to bolster the depleting force levels, a 30-year build programme which was approved at the end of 1990s was to ensure that our build capacity was augmented by creating the necessary infrastructure and technical manpower in two indigenous yards. Inordinate delays in executing the plan resulted in Mazagaon Docks speeding up the construction of much-delayed Scorpene. The other is yet to take off.
This is the backdrop against which the today's leaked documents need to be viewed.
The Australian newspaper which broke the story of the leak has carefully redacted the sensitive data contained in the leaked documents, keeping in mind the advice of military and legal experts. A few pages sourced by Firstpost confirm that the redaction has been professionally carried out. Whether it covers the whole document of over 20,000 pages is yet to be ascertained. Responsible and ethical reportage makes it incumbent on newspapers to blank out those parts which might otherwise have undesirable geopolitical implications. Australia too is on the threshold of building submarines with similar assistance. They ought to know the implications of this action.
With regards to the sensitive data, acoustic signatures and 'cavitation appearance' are indeed closely-guarded secrets with the shipbuilder being its sole custodian. The builder creates a data bank based on simulated and empirical studies which are carried out over a long duration. The customer, in turn, can hold him accountable for such data that needs to be proved during sea trials. Hence the actually recorded and analysed data during sea trials would be more valuable than what is stated in documents. Tactically, a submarine has many options to deceive sonars by masking its radiated noise. Hence the impact of such a disclosure (authentic or not) depends on the quality of submarining. Indian submariners have decades of experience on both Western and Eastern origin submarines.
As far as the timing of this leak is concerned, the competitors of the second line of production are the biggest gainers. It means billions of dollars worth of business at a time when both economy and employment are at a critical stage. It is not that the defence ministry would terminate orders on DCNS, which would be another folly of even greater proportions if they do, but the second line of production is round the corner. Builders from East and West are possibly salivating on the quantum of order.
The very nature of this leak of over 22,000 pages makes it amenable to hacking. Considering that we are not a fully-wired society, it is unlikely that any single in-house source would have all such data on a single but networked computer. This could have also been hacked from those original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) in Europe who were associated with this project. We can at best speculate at this stage.
Is it critical for operations? Most of the pages, as would be the case in any documentation, would consist of data which is common to all builders. With the operational profile being common to all submarines, it is likely that factors related to the detection of the submarine from ship, airborne or a hunter-killer submarine, are critical to operations. But this is the raison d'être of the submarine arm. Experienced submariners know how to avoid detection.
Furthermore, the data on weapons, whether torpedoes or missiles, are well known to all submariners. The greatest advantage that we have is that our submariners have for decades operated both Western and Eastern origin submarines and have learnt to innovate when required.
Recent reports suggest that the choice of torpedoes, which is the primary weapon, has not been finalised. In the existing case, it has turned out to be an advantage as the torpedoes are the main weapon of submarines and this leaked document pertains to discussions held in 2011.
The navy needs more submarines to address the depletion of conventional units. Delays caused by events like these ought not to result in further reduction in force levels.
Parikkar's statement this morning is noteworthy for its sobrie
http://www.firstpost.com/india/leak...s-implication-on-the-indian-navy-2974788.html
++ and this
'Project 75 Has Been Leaked': The Night Navy Discovered Scorpene News
All India | Written by Sudhi Ranjan Sen | Updated: August 24, 201
NEW DELHI: It was midnight and the phone of senior Navy officer posted at the Naval Headquarters wouldn't stop ringing. "The Australian has published a report claiming details of Project 75 (the official name for the submarine project) have been leaked," the caller said.
Minutes later, after the report was read on phone, the Chief of Navy Staff Admiral Sunil Lanba was informed.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, who was simultaneously informed by separate channels, immediately asked the Navy for a damage assessment and the possible place of the leak.
This morning Mr Parrikar told reporters "We knew about this last night". But what he left unsaid was the flurry of activity that took place through the night.
Within an hour, all hands were at the deck at the South Delhi office from where Project 75 is monitored.
A section of officers were pouring over the original document of the Scorpene submarine and comparing them with the ones put out by The Australian. Others were tasked to check which officers had accessed the document and where the documents had moved to look for possible place of leak.
Simultaneously, the cyber experts of the Indian Navy - considered one of the best - stationed across the nation were on a dual job: Looking for traces of leak from computers in India and the cyber trail of the documents put out by the newspaper.
In Mumbai, a similar exercise was underway at the Mazagaon docks - the shipyard constructing the submarines.
The multiple checks ran through the night. In the morning, bleary-eyed officers were allowed to go home, shower and shave.
Within the hour, they were back at their desks.
The initial investigation report, short and factual, was placed before the Defence Minister - who was in his office by 10 am after attending a function despite being up till 4 in the morning.
A meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security -the highest body in the country headed by the Prime Minister, which decides on security issues - was expected to take up the issue by afternoon.
As Mr Parrikar left for the CCS, he asked the Navy to issue the first official communication, which said documents had not leaked from India. The cyber experts who had worked through the night, told the ministry that the cyber trail of the leaked papers didn't originate from India.
Soon after he returned from the CCS meeting, the Chief of Naval Staff again briefed Mr Parrikar. It was a longer briefing -- on the possible fallouts of the leak.
The Navy's conclusion did not change from the initial assessment it had given the Ministry.
Mr Parrikar was told that India had signed the deal with M/s Aramis and not DCNS. M/s Armaris was bought by DCNS subsequently. The leaked documents showed they were from DCNS. The minister was also told that the specifications in the leaked documents didn't match.
"The basic shape, structure (of the submarines) like its height etc remains the same, but several modifications are made to suit our requirements. To put it in simple terms, the computer programme Windows has some basic similarities but Windows of 2007 and 2010 differ hugely," a senior officer associated with the exercise told NDTV.
By late evening, Mr Parrikar and the Navy sat down again. The Navy reiterated that all checks pointed to an overseas leak and the damage, if any, was minimal. The Minister asked the Navy to shoot a query to the French manufacturer DCNS to ascertain the leak and come back to India.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/proj...corpene-news-1449914?pfrom=home-lateststories
+++
Nice.. so finally after all the mockery for last 24 hours slowly sanity is returning.. Interestingly, most of the points are here in this thread..
It shows We as a country need dedicated Defence Reporters who can understand, research and at least not get colored so easily..
This statement makes the point i tried making all through yesterday night..
The navy needs more submarines to address the depletion of conventional units. Delays caused by events like these ought not to result in further reduction in force levels.
thankfully its finally spoken by our media
kadamba-warrior
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India is not a South East Asian country so I don't quite understand how anybody can imply that it was Indians that leaked it while also clearly stating that "the datas were taken out of France in 2011 by a former Navy officer,that was back then a contractor for DCNS".
CorporateAffairs
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Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked
Abhilash Mallick
Yesterday, 11:18 pm
A leak, which runs to 22,400 pages and seen by The Australian, details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines being built for the Indian Navy by French shipbuilder Direction des Constructions et Armes Navales (DCNS).
The documents were marked “Restricted Scorpene India”. The DCNS documents detailed the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $3 billion submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.The Australian has chosen to redact some of the sensitive information from the documents in the report published by it.
Any stealth advantage for the navy’s new submarines would be gravely
compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked.
The leaked DCNS data details the secret stealth capabilities of the six new Indian submarines, including what frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance — all sensitive information that is highly classified.The documents also include instructions to the submarine crew on where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. It also discloses magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data as well as the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system.
It details the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.
The data seen by The Australian includes 4,457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4,209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4,301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6,841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2,138 on its navigation systems.
The Indian Navy has boasted that its Scorpene submarines have superior stealth features, which give them a major advantage against other submarines.DCNS yesterday sought to reassure Australians that the leak of the data on the Indian Scorpene submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France.
The first Scorpene was supposed to be delivered in September 2016. (Photo: Reuters)“In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”
However, The Australian has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.
The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.
The data seen by The Australian also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. These DCNS projects have no link to India, which adds weight to the probability that the data files were removed from DCNS in France.
https://www.thequint.com/india/2016...rines-for-indian-navy-leaked-france-australia
This is actually leaked during Anti National Congress rule. Check this out:
Ali Zadi
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Thanks @PARIKRAMA but I cant exactly believe that the impact of the leak is minimal, I mean even if there have been modifications the base parameters would remain similar/same.
For example the noise signature intensity.
For example the noise signature intensity.
kadamba-warrior
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So far, there is nothing to suggest that Indians were involved in the leak - be it during UPA or NDA.
On the contrary, the initial reports suggest the leak happened at the DCNS end. But anyway, he needs to lay off and stop politicizing the issue!
It is also amazing how Indians (both in the government and outside, both the informed and the uninformed) are so eager to downplay the leaks and give French the clean chit when they should atleast wait till the investigations are complete and talk to the French about damages and perhaps use the opportunity to further drive bargains even if there was nothing substantial leaked!
R!CK
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The information in the files seems to be really basic and general in nature for all scorpenes in use by all customers. Precise parameters are only collected during sea trials which could vary for each submarine. Since the data was lost on 2011, there is no way it is very precise in nature since sea trials only began this year. It might not be a huge national security issue as the media is trying to make it look like. Just my understanding of the topic.
Good day!
Good day!
PARIKRAMA
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Nilgiri
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Thanks for update brother. Slap on the face for all those jumping to "the end is nigh" conclusions.
Will wait for official statement in parliament and whatever final DCNS statements are given on the matter.
OMG the continued posts by some people baying for scorpene blood is just hillarious.....cant they not READ what parikrama has taken a good long time to post in detail???? and what I and others were saying from the start?!?!?!
monitor
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The $3.5 Billion Leak: Scorpene Submarines Exposed, India Assesses Damage
All India | Reported by Vishnu Som (with inputs from Agencies) | Updated: August 24, 2016 18:15 IST
Six Scorpene submarines are being built near Mumbai as part of a deal with French shipbuilder DCNS.
New Delhi:
Highlights
More than 22,000 pages list the combat capabilities and other information on the Scorpene submarine and excerpts have been released by The Australian newspaper.
The Scorpenes, being built for 3.5 billion dollars at the state-run Mazagon shipyard, are considered some of the most advanced of their class in the world. They are so silent underwater that they are extremely difficult, if not impossible to detect. But now their sonar capabilities, the noise they generate and details of the combat system they are armed with are totally exposed.
A screenshot of one of the pages of the leaked dossier on India’s Scorpene-class submarine
"I understand there has been a case of hacking," said Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. "We will find out what has happened. Navy sources said they are confident that the leak took place "outside India", that the documents appear to show different configurations than what was finalized for India, and stressed that "the damage does not seem to be substantial" even as analysts suggested that's not correct.
Ship maker DCNS said in a statement that French national security authorities are investigating the size, seriousness and cause of the leak, which, it said, could be part of "an economic war" with competitors who it beat for a massive $38 billion contract in Australia.
"There is India, Australia and other prospects, and other countries could raise legitimate questions over DCNS. It's part of the tools in economic war," said a spokesperson for DCNS quoted by news agency Reuters.
The documents that have been released do not contain any details of the vessel being designed for the Australian fleet.
A daily accessed 22,400 leaked pages of classified data on India's Scorpene-class submarine. (File)
Submarines are considered the ultimate stealth weapon. Knowing how much sound a submarine makes underwater gives enemies the ability to know just where to look to detect the submarine. The sort of information that has been placed publicly is the stuff of a navy's nightmare.
India has a fleet of 13 ageing submarines, only half of which are operational at any time, opening up a major gap with China which is expanding its maritime presence in the Indian Ocean.
The first of the Scorpene class submarines being built in India, the INS Kalvari, took part in sea trials in May and is expected to go into service by the end of the year.
© Copyright NDTV Convergence Limited 2016. All rights reserved.
All India | Reported by Vishnu Som (with inputs from Agencies) | Updated: August 24, 2016 18:15 IST
Six Scorpene submarines are being built near Mumbai as part of a deal with French shipbuilder DCNS.
New Delhi:
Highlights
- Secret combat capability of 6 Scorpene submarines leaked
- Submarines being built in Mumbai for $3.5 billion with French firm
- Navy says leak happened "outside India", France investigating
More than 22,000 pages list the combat capabilities and other information on the Scorpene submarine and excerpts have been released by The Australian newspaper.
The Scorpenes, being built for 3.5 billion dollars at the state-run Mazagon shipyard, are considered some of the most advanced of their class in the world. They are so silent underwater that they are extremely difficult, if not impossible to detect. But now their sonar capabilities, the noise they generate and details of the combat system they are armed with are totally exposed.
A screenshot of one of the pages of the leaked dossier on India’s Scorpene-class submarine
"I understand there has been a case of hacking," said Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. "We will find out what has happened. Navy sources said they are confident that the leak took place "outside India", that the documents appear to show different configurations than what was finalized for India, and stressed that "the damage does not seem to be substantial" even as analysts suggested that's not correct.
Ship maker DCNS said in a statement that French national security authorities are investigating the size, seriousness and cause of the leak, which, it said, could be part of "an economic war" with competitors who it beat for a massive $38 billion contract in Australia.
"There is India, Australia and other prospects, and other countries could raise legitimate questions over DCNS. It's part of the tools in economic war," said a spokesperson for DCNS quoted by news agency Reuters.
The documents that have been released do not contain any details of the vessel being designed for the Australian fleet.
A daily accessed 22,400 leaked pages of classified data on India's Scorpene-class submarine. (File)
Submarines are considered the ultimate stealth weapon. Knowing how much sound a submarine makes underwater gives enemies the ability to know just where to look to detect the submarine. The sort of information that has been placed publicly is the stuff of a navy's nightmare.
India has a fleet of 13 ageing submarines, only half of which are operational at any time, opening up a major gap with China which is expanding its maritime presence in the Indian Ocean.
The first of the Scorpene class submarines being built in India, the INS Kalvari, took part in sea trials in May and is expected to go into service by the end of the year.
© Copyright NDTV Convergence Limited 2016. All rights reserved.
Nilgiri
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