Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[Olaf One-Brow]

Continuing from earlier post quoted above

Source based information - part 2
Some More information from a very senior Indian Navy official who is briefing IN Chief on continuous basis based on hourly analysis of the data leaked..

1. Classification of information leaked is non catastrophic.
2. Most important things which are not compromised includes Radiated Noise Pattern or Acoustic Signature
3. The acoustic signature is recorded and added to own library only after
   • extensive sea trials
   • after performing successfully radiated noise spectrum analysis under different standard conditions
4. Minor changes which occurs in every operation to operation includes Sonar Frequency and ELF LF Communication frequency both are not compromised.
5. He has confirmed no tactical advantage is lost on any encounter on sea condition to IN chief and the same is briefed to DM MP

tagging you to sven @Olaf One-Brow - you can give better insights on this..

I can give you insight into what each of those signatures mean and how they can be used operationally and how they can be deadened.

I can't give you insight into this hack, unless I was part of it. I can give you insight into methods used to successfully perpetrate the hack or lockdown information to avoid future incidents.

I don't really know much about this particular case though... unless I do.

I know a lot about information security and submarines, probably more then anyone else on this forum, but this particular incident is not something I've looked into in any depth.

...

Here's a picture of me at work, just in case you were interested.

PTI reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the

1. Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance.

2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.

3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),

4. Combat management system (4,301),

5. Navigation systems (2,138),

6. Communications system (6,841)

7. Torpedo launch system.

Some are concerning, some are not. The Torpedo launch system should be standard and the communication hard to intercept and the navigation rather standard too. Where noise comes from is less important then the fact that you're generating any in the first place, so I wouldn't worry about where the safe spots are either.

Sensors are what I'd worry about most. You don't want technical data about them leaked.

And neither about the combat management system. Remember, it's not just the sub's combat management system that's at risk if an adversary knows about it. By knowing data about that system and back tracing its origins, an adversary can target particular companies, military sectors or personal to glean even more data.

Like how attacks on the F-35 lead to additional attacks on supporting contractors.

It seems scary Spectre, but there are only a few points that I'd be truly worried about from an operational standpoint. From a security standpoint you need to lock that sh*t down!!

 

[Nilgiri]

I can give you insight into what each of those signatures mean and how they can be used operationally and how they can be deadened.

I can't give you insight into this hack, unless I was part of it. I can give you insight into methods used to successfully perpetrate the hack or lockdown information to avoid future incidents.

I don't really know much about this particular case though... unless I do.

I know a lot about information security and submarines, probably more then anyone else on this forum, but this particular incident is not something I've looked into in any depth.

...

Here's a picture of me at work, just in case you were interested.

Some are concerning, some are not. The Torpedo launch system should be standard and the communication hard to intercept and the navigation rather standard too. Where noise comes from is less important then the fact that you're generating any in the first place, so I wouldn't worry about where the safe spots are either.

Sensors are what I'd worry about most. You don't want technical data about them leaked.

And neither about the combat management system. Remember, it's not just the sub's combat management system that's at risk if an adversary knows about it. By knowing data about that system and back tracing its origins, an adversary can target particular companies, military sectors or personal to glean even more data.

Like how attacks on the F-35 lead to additional attacks on supporting contractors.

cute tie, but i think polka dots are more "you"....

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I can give you insight into what each of those signatures mean and how they can be used operationally and how they can be deadened.

I can't give you insight into this hack, unless I was part of it. I can give you insight into methods used to successfully perpetrate the hack or lockdown information to avoid future incidents.

I don't really know much about this particular case though... unless I do.

I know a lot about information security and submarines, probably more then anyone else on this forum, but this particular incident is not something I've looked into in any depth.

...

Here's a picture of me at work, just in case you were interested.

Some are concerning, some are not. The Torpedo launch system should be standard and the communication hard to intercept and the navigation rather standard too. Where noise comes from is less important then the fact that you're generating any in the first place, so I wouldn't worry about where the safe spots are either.

Sensors are what I'd worry about most. You don't want technical data about them leaked.

And neither about the combat management system. Remember, it's not just the sub's combat management system that's at risk if an adversary knows about it. By knowing data about that system and back tracing its origins, an adversary can target particular companies, military sectors or personal to glean even more data.

Like how attacks on the F-35 lead to additional attacks on supporting contractors.

It seems scary Spectre, but there are only a few points that I'd be truly worried about from an operational standpoint. From a security standpoint you need to lock that sh*t down!!

Damn u Sven.. u and foxy always gets to show off cuties.. BTW thats really a cute cat pic.. BTW why you dont use your main id?

On combat management system, i will throw in a spanner.. Well we have Subtics or submarine tactical integrated combat system in scorpenes.. And our friends in west also have the same in Agosta... Since our friends in West have these submarine and Combat System, its beyond doubt that our other friend across Himalayas would have got in and out of it already....

Going by that logic, Scorpene is compromised right from the day we signed contract

and lets talk about hacking prowess.. First hand experiences of F35, C17 and what not more tells you right our friend can always find ways and means to get the data..

And yes from security point its from DCNS side where leak occurred.. But everything related to Scorpene in India must be locked down with additional security measures..

 

[Olaf One-Brow]

DBTW why you dont use your main id?

Same reason I never do when I come back for a week or two then leave again for months; security. I go through email addresses and passwords far to frequently. The downside of being affiliated with the military.

So when I leave the forum and my auto password updater updates my password automatically, randomly and to something I'm not likely to remember because it's usually a huge sequence and because I've deleted or updated my email address for security reasons and unable to reset the password and thus I'm locked out... again.

Going by that logic, Scorpene is compromised right from the day we signed contract

If you used our Aegis combat system, as noted here:

https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...air-defence-system.437772/page-2#post-8437379

And here regarding US offers (Maybe. I'm doubtful of most news regarding US exports) to India:

https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...air-defence-system.437772/page-4#post-8445290

We'd have a huge leg up on you because, as with Japan, South Korea, Australia, Spain and Norway, it'd be the exact same system we use... only we'd have access to goodies you don't like specialized codes that allow us to mod the software with additional baselines or specialized modules like Aegis BMD.

That logic holds true, if it isn't somewhat paranoid. If we built it, we can cause it problems. Even an Indianized version of Aegis with code built to support a specific version of Aegis tailored to Indian needs, say like Aegis integrated into MF-STAR, which is possible even though Aegis is used with variations of APY in all nations using Aegis (like SPY-1D, SPY-1F, SPY-3, SPY-4 and SPY-6).

If we built it, we have access to ways to screw with it.

and lets talk about hacking prowess.. First hand experiences of F35, C17 and what not more tells you right our friend can always find ways and means to get the data..

Hacking prowess? America? Nah, we have no such thing. We're terrible with hacking stuff.

Don't you mind that building. It's just our pudding storage facility. The government loves their pudding.

But everything related to Scorpene in India must be locked down with additional security measures..

If we want it we can get it. Russia and China too. Hack attacks and other forms of electronic intercepts are only one of a myriad of methods we've refined to gather information.

Not that we're interested or anything.

u and foxy always gets to show off cuties..

Where's my Norge? I haven't talked to her in a while.

I think she's got a little girl now and I've got one a few months older. Add work into the mix and my wife being deployed on and off (it's less frequently now) and I just don't have time to annoy my Norge.

cute tie, but i think polka dots are more "you"....

So like this?

 

[Rafi]

Juicy, but not much that we haven't already collated from multiple sources.

 

[Oldman1]

There is nothing dumb in what I stated.

I did not insinuate that USA had leaked the data. What I did was to make a conjecture that USA (its MIC) stands to gain most from this leak, irrespective of whether USA has a hand in this leak or not.

There is nothing to gain by the U.S. None at all. Think about it. The French are selling their subs to Australia which will be equipped with American combat system because they are using American weapons.

http://dcnsgroup.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/DCNS-SEA1000-Insert-FINAL_low-res.pdf

France is offering the Australian Government complete access to the stealth technologies utilised
on board French nuclear-powered general-purpose attack submarines (SSNs) and ballistic missile
submarines (SSBNs).
These technologies are the “crown jewels” of French submarine design and have never been offered to
any other country. The very nature of these stealth technologies and the decision to release them to
the Australian Government is a significant demonstration of the strategic nature of this program for the
French authorities.
The United States will be responsible for supplying integrated combat systems to the Future
Submarines, as well as the submarine’s weapons.
The collaboration between Australia, France and the United States will see DCNS providing design,
technology and expertise within this sovereign framework.

You know what I think

There is nothing dumb in what I stated.

I did not insinuate that USA had leaked the data. What I did was to make a conjecture that USA (its MIC) stands to gain most from this leak, irrespective of whether USA has a hand in this leak or not.

You know who would benefit this? It would be the Germans who was bidding and lost and didn't know why.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Juicy, but not much that we haven't already collated from multiple sources.

You wish.

Here goes the rafale deal!

How exactly? Other than, "becasue France"?

We can kiss good bye to additional scorpenes....even scrap the last two may be!!

Indians and their dramatic tendancies....


@PARIKRAMA thanks for the detailed updates bro, you are a real asset. I wish you could become India's single source for defence related news, the hacks that try to pass for "defence journalists" in India are not just dissapointingly bad but downright dangerous in these kind of situations where one needs to be very technically minded and able to understand a nuanced picture.

@Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN eagerly awaiting the French Govt/DCNS response to this (beyond mere words). This IS economic warfare and we all know the French aren't ones to take such provocation lightly. There needs to be heads rolling...

 

[Nilgiri]

thanks for the detailed updates bro, you are a real asset. I wish you could become India's single source for defence related news, the hacks that try to pass for "defence journalists" in India are not just dissapointingly bad but downright dangerous in these kind of situations where one needs to be very technically minded and able to understand a nuanced picture.

hear hear! I am glad that he is at least posting here.....I seriously dont have the patience to deal with these folk like he does.

 

[Abingdonboy]

hear hear! I am glad that he is at least posting here.....I seriously dont have the patience to deal with these folk like he does.

Neither do I! I honestly avoid most "defence reports" from the so-called hacks who have the audacity to call themselves "defence journalists" in India and the comments section of such articles are a big NO NO. I just can't handle the level of stupidity and ignorance on display in such sections by entirely ill-informed members of the public.

I understand that by virtue of being members of sites such as this we are a minority and would likely be classed as "defence enthusiasts" but I could forgive the ignorance (to a degree). What is most frustrating/infuriating is that many are blatently ignorant to defence matters but spout out nonsense prescribing utter cr@p as though they are experts. Reading through this sort of thing is not good for my long term health.

There is a very toxic combination of an ignorant (and beligerant) population in India with a media that does a total disservice to their nation/people and does not correct such issues but further feeds the BS cycle.

Luckily, right now the GoI/MoD is being run by hard-headed rational induviduals but we have already seen what happens when you put in weak-willed and selfish clowns into such positions of power (blanket blacklisting and unilateral cancelling of contracts during their delivery stage).

 

[Nilgiri]

Neither do I! I honestly avoid most "defence reports" from the so-called hacks who have the audacity to call themselves "defence journalists" in India and the comments section of such articles are a big NO NO. I just can't handle the level of stupidity and ignorance on display in such sections by entirely ill-informed members of the public.

I understand that by virtue of being members of sites such as this we are a minority and would likely be classed as "defence enthusiasts" but I could forgive the ignorance (to a degree). What is most frustrating/infuriating is that many are blatently ignorant to defence matters but spout out nonsense prescribing utter cr@p as though they are experts. Reading through this sort of thing is not good for my long term health.

There is a very toxic combination of an ignorant (and beligerant) population in India with a media that does a total disservice to their nation/people and does not correct such issues but further feeds the BS cycle.

Luckily, right now the GoI/MoD is being run by hard-headed rational induviduals but we have already seen what happens when you put in weak-willed and selfish clowns into such positions of power (blanket blacklisting and unilateral cancelling of contracts during their delivery stage).

It just disturbs me how many in this thread were talking like they knew the minutest detail of what was leaked....even when I pointed out to them that they have no idea what a standard manual often covers.

I have put even more people in my riffraff bucket now as a result.....people I previously thought were more rational and strictly evidence-based.

 

[Abingdonboy]

It just disturbs me how many in this thread were talking like they knew the minutest detail of what was leaked....even when I pointed out to them that they have no idea what a standard manual often covers.

I have put even more people in my riffraff bucket now as a result.....people I previously thought were more rational and strictly evidence-based.

This is what really pi$$es me off about desis, they are sooo quick to jump to conclusions and once their opinion is formed they will cling to it despite the presence of contradictory FACTS.

It's a very childish trait .


Many other cultures are more considered and rational and in the absence of facts/ a clear picture will adopt a "wait and watch" approach before forming their opinions.

 

[jaunty]

We should neither exaggerate nor downplay it at this point. Let's wait for the official investigation report. On the face of it, this does look like a major crisis but only a proper investigation would reveal how much of the leaked data is really sensitive and classified. But regardless, there is going to be a trust deficit which will be tough to overcome.

 

[Indrajit]

Too many people here are making light of/dismissing consequences of the leak and are almost taking a frivolous attitude towards this. This matter is of a serious nature requiring deep examination. If there are some 20,000 + pages that are in know of The Australian, it stands to reason that one cannot assume that the entire leak is limited to just that. We know about the leak only because it is in the hands of a newspaper, hostile intelligence agencies are not about to show their hand openly. We can hope for the best but must assume the worst.

MoD statements must be taken with a pinch of salt. No one is about to announce for public consumption even if they have been deeply cut by this. Almost everything that will now be put out will involve some spinning to control the narrative. To pronounce with certainty that all this amounts just to a storm in a tea cup is, to put it simply, very foolhardy. Need to proceed with circumspection, as I have said earlier, assuming the worst.

 

[GuardianRED]

Too many people here are making light of/dismissing consequences of the leak and are almost taking a frivolous attitude towards this. This matter is of a serious nature requiring deep examination. If there are some 20,000 + pages that are in know of The Australian, it stands to reason that one cannot assume that the entire leak is limited to just that. We know about the leak only because it is in the hands of a newspaper, hostile intelligence agencies are not about to show their hand openly. We can hope for the best but must assume the worst.

MoD statements must be taken with a pinch of salt. No one is about to announce for public consumption even if they have been deeply cut by this. Almost everything that will now be put out will involve some spinning to control the narrative. To pronounce with certainty that all this amounts just to a storm in a tea cup is, to put it simply, very foolhardy. Need to proceed with circumspection, as I have said earlier, assuming the worst.

Assuming the Worst is Ak Anthony territory - and we ended up with the Infamous Agustawestland so called Scam. - Its been 4 year ? anything? just alot of finger pointing and blaming game and an air chief marshal name being dragged through the dirt + 3 frames with Advance systems collecting enough dirt to make a burial!.

No one here is just dismissing this lighty NOR are we hair pulling for the sake of it. People also fail to forget that the subsystems of any sub can be modified anytime. Only One hull is complete and in sea trials and based on those very trials, what snags and defects or positives (sorry lost of thought) can be incorporated, in the rest of it.

 

[BON PLAN]

Then the nations that purchased the first versions with fully French parts should be very careful .
Their subs are totally compromised .

NO.
If a possible opponent knows how discreet your subs are, it will be less adventurous.

We can kiss good bye to additional scorpenes....even scrap the last two may be!!

how deep is your reflection .....
it is sad.